Dick Burwen agrees with this premise, with respect to digital recording he has recorded a lot of music and played back his own recordings. He has made a software product to deal with this effect.
BB_Home
I have no affiliation with the manf.
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SY, ur a bright guy, but ur not always correct.
The attitude you're putting out is not productive, constructive or adding to the discussion.
Honest opinions are fine, and I even said that IF the latest high bitrate/depth methods have finally become truly transparent, THAT is fine.
Try discussing, not dismissing?
_-_-bear
I gave my experience. You're not happy with that. If "discuss" means "agree with bear's premises as a starting point," then you're right, I'm not discussing. If it means, "give your honest experience and talk about it," that's what I was doing before you derailed things. I was pretty clear about what I did, how I did it, and what results I got. That on topic. My absolutely outrageous opinions were shared by several other people.
To this point, you haven't detailed what experiments you've done to come to a different conclusion. Why not stay on topic and provide some details on how you set up your experiments and how you interpreted your data?
To this point, you haven't detailed what experiments you've done to come to a different conclusion. Why not stay on topic and provide some details on how you set up your experiments and how you interpreted your data?
SY, better try the decafe?
I think I said exactly what I did and how it worked.
I suggested that YOU and others give it a shot.
No matter what topic there is, some will agree and some disagree.
That some take one side or another is more or less meaningless.
I don't care one way or another if you agree or disagree with my "premise" or not.
The purpose was and is to discuss and thereby illuminate and share information on this subject.
The fact is that there is a dichotomy between the way many people seem to perceive very clean electronics playing back recordings and the way that people seem to perceive both recordings played back through (for lack of a better way to describe it) somewhat "euphonic" signal chains AND (this is where my "premise" arises) live source played back through those same very clean electronics...
Now this may not be your experience, or somebody elese's experience.
But there are many who seem to have noticed some differences.
One poster commented on a mosquito...
But SY or anyone else, feel free to detail the conditions under which you were unable to discern any difference between a live feed and the recorded version. The idea behind this is that I may (or others may) wish to find out more about this system and equipment with the idea of borrowing some ideas and/or duplicating it entirely.
As far as being clear on what you did, this is your chance to detail the exact system and gear being used. Like what A/D --> D/A was it anyway??
Thanks for the red herrings or "experiements" and "data interpretation"... that helped a lot. <sarcasm alert>
_-_-bear
I think I said exactly what I did and how it worked.
I suggested that YOU and others give it a shot.
No matter what topic there is, some will agree and some disagree.
That some take one side or another is more or less meaningless.
I don't care one way or another if you agree or disagree with my "premise" or not.
The purpose was and is to discuss and thereby illuminate and share information on this subject.
The fact is that there is a dichotomy between the way many people seem to perceive very clean electronics playing back recordings and the way that people seem to perceive both recordings played back through (for lack of a better way to describe it) somewhat "euphonic" signal chains AND (this is where my "premise" arises) live source played back through those same very clean electronics...
Now this may not be your experience, or somebody elese's experience.
But there are many who seem to have noticed some differences.
One poster commented on a mosquito...
But SY or anyone else, feel free to detail the conditions under which you were unable to discern any difference between a live feed and the recorded version. The idea behind this is that I may (or others may) wish to find out more about this system and equipment with the idea of borrowing some ideas and/or duplicating it entirely.
As far as being clear on what you did, this is your chance to detail the exact system and gear being used. Like what A/D --> D/A was it anyway??
Thanks for the red herrings or "experiements" and "data interpretation"... that helped a lot. <sarcasm alert>
_-_-bear
I did mention how I did my listening tests. The DAC was an M-Audio 192. Headphones were a vintage set of ESP9s. Power amp is an EL84 pentode p-p, but I got the same results with a little MOSFET amp I had for portable use. Switch is a Cinema Engineering DP3T with silver coin contacts. Mike is a modified short ribbon into a THAT1512-based preamp run off batteries.
Now, can you please give your experimental details? You haven't so far.
Now, can you please give your experimental details? You haven't so far.
I've done this experiment a good dozen times, with all kinds of different modifications and changes done to the given gear.
I've even sat there and done single cause analysis changes to the gear, step by step, 10-12 hours a day, for a week straight..just trying as hard as I can to get it right. This, in as simple a path as is possible.
Th result is always the same. It's never as good as listening to the live event through the same path.
The micro differences in the recording of the transient function and micro timing differentials is the major culprit, AFAICT (As Far As I Can Tell)
After all, it is the only part of the signal that the ear hears or pays any attention to, at all.
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SY thanks for the rundown.
As I said, my experience with this is more or less anecdotal.
I found that merely stringing more or less random mics out the window, and using whatever was on hand to do the mic pre job resulted in rather more "natural" and "open" sound than I had or have heard to date listening back to recorded sound.
IF your M-Audio 192 is that good, I should pick one up. Simple as that.
I did say that IF the SOTA high bitrate/depth stuff has more or less removed the difference between a straight wire in analog and a recorded event, so much the better.
It would be nice to hear it from some others who have had the same experience.
But, I'd still suggest you do try the mic out the window experiment for yourself...
Btw, and fwiw, I think I have a set of Koss electrostatic headphones here... 😀
(I question the pentode amp, but that's another kettle of fish...)
_-_-bear
KBK, thanks for the input on the topic... fwiw, fyi, etc...
As I said, my experience with this is more or less anecdotal.
I found that merely stringing more or less random mics out the window, and using whatever was on hand to do the mic pre job resulted in rather more "natural" and "open" sound than I had or have heard to date listening back to recorded sound.
IF your M-Audio 192 is that good, I should pick one up. Simple as that.
I did say that IF the SOTA high bitrate/depth stuff has more or less removed the difference between a straight wire in analog and a recorded event, so much the better.
It would be nice to hear it from some others who have had the same experience.
But, I'd still suggest you do try the mic out the window experiment for yourself...
Btw, and fwiw, I think I have a set of Koss electrostatic headphones here... 😀
(I question the pentode amp, but that's another kettle of fish...)
_-_-bear
KBK, thanks for the input on the topic... fwiw, fyi, etc...
The 192 card is terrific. Highly, highly recommended.
Mike out the window, I mostly get wind noise (this is Texas!). So I use acoustical instruments and singers.
Mike out the window, I mostly get wind noise (this is Texas!). So I use acoustical instruments and singers.
depends on where you live... but late night, calm wind, crickets??
early morning, birds...
or traffic noise, if you have it...
_-_-bear
early morning, birds...
or traffic noise, if you have it...
_-_-bear
If ya like twang?
I'll take NYC over Austin for music... but I should visit Austin for the music that is there.
Well there must be something to hear outside??
Otherwise how will you ever know if I am on to something or not??
_-_-bear
I'll take NYC over Austin for music... but I should visit Austin for the music that is there.
Well there must be something to hear outside??
Otherwise how will you ever know if I am on to something or not??
_-_-bear
First post in years ... first time back on DIY Audio in years probably.
It reminded me very quickly why I left. People jumping on the conjecture bandwagon without reading the original posts or for that matter having any "real" experience of their own.
Been there, done that on this one ... There was a time when putting an A/D - D/A into the chain was very audible. That was back in the days of linear filters, R2R A/Ds, low sample rates, etc.
Does 24/192 make a difference? Yes, but I think as much as anything the improvements were with the A/D converters and the sampling chain. It was not so much a matter of storing at 24/192, as it is was sampling at much higher frequencies and then using digital techniques which are/were linear in phase to filter down to 16/48 which was infinitely less damaging to the signal than the old brickwall analog filters in the early days.
Yes PLLs can cause havoc, but unless you are playing a CD, odds are you have a buffered digital source playing off a rock solid clock source with essentially no jitter.
So yes, to your original post, I have plugged A/D and D/A into the chain and noticed no difference at all. Without looking at the settings, I would never know if it was in there or not.
It reminded me very quickly why I left. People jumping on the conjecture bandwagon without reading the original posts or for that matter having any "real" experience of their own.
Been there, done that on this one ... There was a time when putting an A/D - D/A into the chain was very audible. That was back in the days of linear filters, R2R A/Ds, low sample rates, etc.
Does 24/192 make a difference? Yes, but I think as much as anything the improvements were with the A/D converters and the sampling chain. It was not so much a matter of storing at 24/192, as it is was sampling at much higher frequencies and then using digital techniques which are/were linear in phase to filter down to 16/48 which was infinitely less damaging to the signal than the old brickwall analog filters in the early days.
Yes PLLs can cause havoc, but unless you are playing a CD, odds are you have a buffered digital source playing off a rock solid clock source with essentially no jitter.
So yes, to your original post, I have plugged A/D and D/A into the chain and noticed no difference at all. Without looking at the settings, I would never know if it was in there or not.
Twang, yes, the best of it, and singer-songwriter alt-folk heaven. But really, everything from hard core jazz to prog rock to bluegrass to gospel. A symphony as well, but I have no idea how good they are, I don't care for cover bands.
Any city whose most prominent statue is not a general or a politician, but rather Stevie Ray Vaughn, is my kinda place.
Any city whose most prominent statue is not a general or a politician, but rather Stevie Ray Vaughn, is my kinda place.
Yeah SRV was great. I saw him live.
No way the recording is the same, but I diverge! 😀
Alvaius, fine, but you are saying not enough about where, and what you were plugging into?
If it was a live rock band, then, sure...
_-_-bear
PS. wasn't there something about a tower in that town??
No way the recording is the same, but I diverge! 😀
Alvaius, fine, but you are saying not enough about where, and what you were plugging into?
If it was a live rock band, then, sure...
_-_-bear
PS. wasn't there something about a tower in that town??
Outdoor sound is mostly decorrelated. It's the decorrelated elements, I think, that gives reproduced sound, whether from direct feed or recording, that open and natural sensation you report.
It's been twenty years since I had much to with recording but I do remember how lively the direct feed sounded through the ear phones. We were mostly recording choral music and the recordings tended to sound more natural and lively when we got just the right amount of hall sound into the mix - aka decorrelated sounds....
I'm still waiting for a copy ......
I'm aiming to have something released by year end.
@bear- saw Double Trouble a few months ago, backing Oz Noy (an amazing guitarist). A little bar, about three times the size of my living room.
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