Given two extremes, I find the truth usually lies somewhere in the middle. So I see the passive ear + brain and active ear + brain as both useful toward the goal of improved understanding and technological advancement.
But I also see audio equipment as entertainment devices and not real world simulators. It seems the best of the latter at this point in time are those which target many senses.
But I also see audio equipment as entertainment devices and not real world simulators. It seems the best of the latter at this point in time are those which target many senses.
Probably, but the active ear needed to be heard
But so is TV, Cinema, etc. & their realism is often what adds to their entertainment value. Remember when the first CGI came out, how disappointing it was & compare that to computer graphics now & it's realism! I think a large part of entertainment is about immersion.
Anyway, it really was about Vinyl Vs CD & how looking at thing purely linearly may be missing the point. Like vacuphile's post above - what naturally produces square waves in the real world & is there such a thing anyway - all waves have a finite rise time!
Last edited:
This may be technically correct, but I doubt that real music ever generates square waves. If we accept for the discussion that musical signals are limited to say 20kHz, you should consider square waves that have been send through a 20kHz low pass filter. If you look at the results of that, the edge that CDs have is much less impressive.
Any A-D conversion process includes an anti-aliasing filter, which is, you guessed it, a low pass at say 20kHz (don't know the exact frequency, but it's there always). So even IF the musical signal has a square wave, it won't even get into the digital domain.
jan didden
Last edited:
I don't want to stray off the topic. I'll just say I agree re: immersion, but think the larger part of that originates in the brain.
I understood vacuphile's post, but agree it's relevance may be limited. I agree that CD/digital is an improved technology from a technology standpoint, but the issue is "better" from an audio standpoint.
I understood vacuphile's post, but agree it's relevance may be limited. I agree that CD/digital is an improved technology from a technology standpoint, but the issue is "better" from an audio standpoint.
Sure, I agree but the brain suddenly jumps out of the illusion if it encounters an anomaly in the sound & this is perhaps the crux - what are the anomalous sounds that cause this? We know that scratches on vinyl can fall into the background & become almost unnoticeable if the rest of the system is captivating enough (this is an example, btw, of the ears ability to selectively tune-out certain elements - this would seem to be not just a function of the brain but an actual change in the ear's responsiveness to these frequencies. On the other hand, some anomolies are more pervasive & not possible to isolate in a frequency band as are the scratches. These could give rise to a uneasiness with the sound - that a lot of people report about digital).
Last edited:
sofaspud and vacuphile
One thing is for sure, you have to establish some "givens". I would suspect the size and shape of one's ear apertures, and the state of those tiny "hairs" that conduct the sound waves to the brain for processing can have major effect on what is heard.
All that aside, I have just finished reconstructing my rig. I still need to finish up on addressing acoustic issues (I'm building my own bass traps and panels)
I have a new DAC (Benchmark DAC1) and have started record cleaning in earnest.
The only things I can objectively report are as follows;
After cleaning three LP's, I find a more ambient quality in the records I've listened to than the CD's I’ve listened to.
I've heard more "low bass" detail present in the CD's than in the LP's. This especially must be judged after room acoustics are optimized.
The former could be attributable to the sound engineer. The latter seems to be an inherent difference between the two media. I have encountered at least one LP which had low bass note detail along with extention.
My phono cartridge and phono pre-amp might miss the last bit of low frequency retrieval. They are Benz L2 Wood, and Jolida (modified) JD9 respectively.
One thing is for sure, you have to establish some "givens". I would suspect the size and shape of one's ear apertures, and the state of those tiny "hairs" that conduct the sound waves to the brain for processing can have major effect on what is heard.
All that aside, I have just finished reconstructing my rig. I still need to finish up on addressing acoustic issues (I'm building my own bass traps and panels)
I have a new DAC (Benchmark DAC1) and have started record cleaning in earnest.
The only things I can objectively report are as follows;
After cleaning three LP's, I find a more ambient quality in the records I've listened to than the CD's I’ve listened to.
I've heard more "low bass" detail present in the CD's than in the LP's. This especially must be judged after room acoustics are optimized.
The former could be attributable to the sound engineer. The latter seems to be an inherent difference between the two media. I have encountered at least one LP which had low bass note detail along with extention.
My phono cartridge and phono pre-amp might miss the last bit of low frequency retrieval. They are Benz L2 Wood, and Jolida (modified) JD9 respectively.
Exactly. That's why physical signal generators don't generate "true" square waves, which are discontinuous and have discontinuous derivatives. If you measure the frequency domain spectrum of a square wave from a generator, you'll see non-zero even harmonics.
OK, makes sense. I always wondered how they got the slightly rounded edges.
But given one of these "not true" square waves, where can we start lopping off harmonics before it all goes bad?
I ask because I can see square waves out of my CD player, tho they always have some artifacts at the edges.
But given one of these "not true" square waves, where can we start lopping off harmonics before it all goes bad?
I ask because I can see square waves out of my CD player, tho they always have some artifacts at the edges.
The arguement over the terms passive and active are actually really silly semantics stuff that some people like to argue to avoid the real discussion and to make themselves look smarter then they really are about the complete process.
I do not think he (or they) understand that its not even important and I based on "HIS" definition of active there is no arguement from me about it. It still comes down to what the brain does with the signal from the ear so the ear can be active, it can be passive, it does not really matter because the conclusions we make are 100% from the processing the brain does and most here actually believe the data from ear in an uncontrolled listening test is the most important piece of data the brain gets. Which is a false assumption.
Last edited:
Everyone has different priorities. Few like to post those actual priorities. For me its more then just how anything sounds there are other variables that are required to determine if one technology is better over all then another technology. CD is a better technology if everyone steps outside of their own little boxes and list ALL variables involved. No one just pick and choose one variable and conclude "Yep, its the best".
No one that "believes" will ever change....just look at the foundation of religion for how that works. On the other side no one that believes in Audio science will ever change until new science is produced and the subjective "belief" side refuses to do the hard core testing/measurements to prove anything. I mean, they think we should just all sit there and use our ears without any sort of proper controls in place. The ears have their own brain you know, they actively process the information for our brains. Our brain does not have to do any work
Last edited:
why i choose CD´s over LP´s ?
Space - cd´s dont take that much space and are easyer to store , i have a small bedroom
Duration - cd´s will last many years with the original sound quality even if played many times
Sound quality - any average cd player has decent sound quality , for lp´s you need a very good turntable.
Cleaning - no need for cleaning when i insert a cd on the player
Easy backup - i have full backup (cd quality) of my 400 cd´s , imagine doing that with lp´s
my cd player upsamples to 24/384 i think it´s worth it but many might disagree
Space - cd´s dont take that much space and are easyer to store , i have a small bedroom
Duration - cd´s will last many years with the original sound quality even if played many times
Sound quality - any average cd player has decent sound quality , for lp´s you need a very good turntable.
Cleaning - no need for cleaning when i insert a cd on the player
Easy backup - i have full backup (cd quality) of my 400 cd´s , imagine doing that with lp´s
my cd player upsamples to 24/384 i think it´s worth it but many might disagree
...... I mean, they think we should just all sit there and use our ears without any sort of proper controls in place. The ears have their own brain you know, they actively process the information for our brains. Our brain does not have to do any work
It's funny that someone who purports to be firmly in the field of "audio science" refuses to read anything about the science of hearing - you know it all, it would seem - the brain does it all, end of story, fingers in the ears, I'm not listening to any more!
What science about the ear do you suggest we learn. The ear simply takes all soundwaves and sends to the brain for processing. Why make that a more difficult discussion.
Never once posted "Not listening", that is the general assumption from the subjective side as somehow saying we do not listen
I do all my listening under controlled conditions IF I want to know the truth about any product. I do all my listening all other times just for pure enjoyment no matter what the medium, location, content.
+1 I just received a 500GB drive with 50,000 songs
Can not play that on a turntable. Heck, I can not even play that on an Ipod - Status
- Not open for further replies.