I'd listen to it 1st before deciding it was an issue. An on axis curve without supporting off-axis curves is not all that useful.
dave
dave
hmm i guess i agree, in theory its simple to add a tweeter, just some inductors, caps, a resistor and another hole, right? So i guess im getting closer to understanding what i want/need from the speakers. they appear to be cheaper then the EL70 as well
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so i know the fonken series are your designs/etc. does your flat pak's accept the FR88ex or am i waiting on a new cabinet design to be finalized?
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/planet-10-hifi/151379-ufonken-flat-paks.html apparently that's where you got the photo from earlier too 😛
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/planet-10-hifi/151379-ufonken-flat-paks.html apparently that's where you got the photo from earlier too 😛
We have to make flat-paks for the FR88eX (and i need to do up some drivers). It is the same box with a different baffle rebate, driver brace & vent slot. If you are really interested i could push the project forward. eMail me.
dave
dave
there's a possibility you could be done by the time its time for me to go and buy a kit, any prediction on pricing range for 5? At this moment i am only trying to decide/understand what i want and otherwise budgeting out and giving myself some time to continue looking/think about it.
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These FR88's drivers aren't that sensitive, but the pair of small speakers I made using them are indeed singing very nicely with my 1W single ended triode amplifier to my great satisfaction. They are small and inexpensive, each pair of speakers comes out of a small 2' x 2' sheet of birch plywood and the design is fairly forgiving.
The details are here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/175056-martello-enclosure-fr88ex.html
p.s. I also use full range speakers for my home theatre.
The details are here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/175056-martello-enclosure-fr88ex.html
p.s. I also use full range speakers for my home theatre.
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If they're still available, you might want to look at the OneZ speakers from Audiocrafters Guild. Very small form factor and can use several different high efficiency 4" drivers from Fostex.
My amplifier should be doing significantly more then 1W, so if your good at 1W i should be fine.
Im a complete noobie when it comes to woodworking, my amp chassis was built with a hand saw and some screws, square/rectangular pieces and careful measurements. turned out nice tho.
Your cabinet design doesnt look like it would be very difficult, however. but it would probably be best to buy a router for the rounded edges and carving out the void for the speaker to sit flush. is this type of tool intuitive enough that going through a scrap piece of wood or two i could handle the job?
your design notes point out that a gasket is needed, but later on in the thread it almost looks like someone lined it with silicone caulk, is this indeed, what he did?
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It depends on whether you have the temperament to learn and enjoy despite some mistakes along the way. If your goal is to get to the end result as quickly and painlessly as possible then a flat pack from Dave at planet 10 is the way to go. If you want the 'fun' of doing it yourself, then that's what I'd recommend.
I'd say that if you are skilled at using a handsaw you can cut all the pieces for some small speakers without a problem. I like using a handsaw, it gives me the feel that some craftsmanship is involved in the process. However, I found that I got best results with a hand held but powered circular saw using a good quality blade. They can be quite affordable (depending where you live) and will give hours of joy for future projects - but as with all power tools don't be stingy, buy the ear muffs and safety goggles to use with them.
I did use a router for the opening. I'd say that the router is not a difficult tool to use but you have to invest up front time and effort in the set up. You need to prepare a proper surface to work on and a mechanism to hold the work-piece safely. I used one of those folding benches that can clamp pieces of wood. Worse case in the past I've simply nailed the work-piece to a bench top and filled the nail hold afterwards !
You also need a way to control the movement of the router to get a nice circle - you can NOT do this hand-held. Two options are a) use a template along with a router bit designed to work with a template (called a pattern follower by some) and of course you need a template to start with !, or b) you need a guide that you fix firmly (usually with screws) to the base of the router and then with a small screw or nail in the work-piece at the centre point of the circle a small hole in the guide fits over this nail and the whole assembly rotates around it like a compass. I'm pretty sure there are lots of sources of information on how to do this including Youtube. I found that an existing hold in the base of my router was in about the right spot and so I didn't need to use a guide but you can buy them to suit your router. If you practice on some scrap wood I think you'll find it really isn't too hard to do - the effort is all in the set-up. Use good quality router bits, tungsten carbide.
Do the work outside if you have a suitable climate - the dust they generate is prolific. A cheap disposable face mask (mouth and nose) is highly recommended.
Don't let all this put you off - if you like DIY - it's very satisfying as you know already from building your own amp.
You don't need a router to round edges - sandpaper works just fine for me on that score.
I checked out your amp thread, it looks like a fine amplifier to me. The form factor is perfect. In fact, I have been considering rebuilding my own home theatre amp but was going to make it solid state, maybe a hybrid, only when I saw your amp I stopped and thought perhaps I would consider an all-tube set up myself.
I'd say that if you are skilled at using a handsaw you can cut all the pieces for some small speakers without a problem. I like using a handsaw, it gives me the feel that some craftsmanship is involved in the process. However, I found that I got best results with a hand held but powered circular saw using a good quality blade. They can be quite affordable (depending where you live) and will give hours of joy for future projects - but as with all power tools don't be stingy, buy the ear muffs and safety goggles to use with them.
I did use a router for the opening. I'd say that the router is not a difficult tool to use but you have to invest up front time and effort in the set up. You need to prepare a proper surface to work on and a mechanism to hold the work-piece safely. I used one of those folding benches that can clamp pieces of wood. Worse case in the past I've simply nailed the work-piece to a bench top and filled the nail hold afterwards !
You also need a way to control the movement of the router to get a nice circle - you can NOT do this hand-held. Two options are a) use a template along with a router bit designed to work with a template (called a pattern follower by some) and of course you need a template to start with !, or b) you need a guide that you fix firmly (usually with screws) to the base of the router and then with a small screw or nail in the work-piece at the centre point of the circle a small hole in the guide fits over this nail and the whole assembly rotates around it like a compass. I'm pretty sure there are lots of sources of information on how to do this including Youtube. I found that an existing hold in the base of my router was in about the right spot and so I didn't need to use a guide but you can buy them to suit your router. If you practice on some scrap wood I think you'll find it really isn't too hard to do - the effort is all in the set-up. Use good quality router bits, tungsten carbide.
Do the work outside if you have a suitable climate - the dust they generate is prolific. A cheap disposable face mask (mouth and nose) is highly recommended.
Don't let all this put you off - if you like DIY - it's very satisfying as you know already from building your own amp.
You don't need a router to round edges - sandpaper works just fine for me on that score.
I checked out your amp thread, it looks like a fine amplifier to me. The form factor is perfect. In fact, I have been considering rebuilding my own home theatre amp but was going to make it solid state, maybe a hybrid, only when I saw your amp I stopped and thought perhaps I would consider an all-tube set up myself.
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I did enjoy building my own amplifier a lot. I started building the amp thinking i knew everything i had to know, and boy was i wrong.
The circuit/wiring itself was straight forward and my knowledge from my electrical engineering courses covered me understanding the majority of tube operation and i understood just from looking at datasheets and curves why tubes were better then silicon from an psychological acoustics point of view(from what i noticed, tubes are mostly even order distortion, which is smooth in every case. human mind/brain has difficulty noticing smooth transitions). But linear unregulated power supply design was initially deceptively simple.
The power supply filter you see in my project page isnt the current status of it, i discovered i 'did it wrong' and rebuilt it. im using a 10uF US military NOS PIO cap for my primary filter, and instead of having 4 47uf filters wired in series as RC filters i wired them all together to make a 188uF 'tank'. this instantly solved a hum problem that i thought was actually my wiring and really opened up my amp, it sounds beautiful now. I cant even comprehend how it will probably sound with nice speakers.
The filament supply went through many iterations too. i tried doing it full custom, and then decided/discovered that a switching instead of a linear power supply was a better way to go. Discovered on ebay i could find 15 amp(only needed 5 amps steady state, 8 amps power on) pre built with voltage adjustment for $20, so i decided it wasn't worth my time to build custom something so simple.
So, i guess i am not so adverse to failure. Plus in the case of speakers vs my amp which i felt i needed to rush it towards the end since i had no sound for my PC setup, I can take as long as i need to get these speakers done.
But back to the speakers, for the router it sounds like it would not take me very long to figure out how to do smooth curves/circles with it. And while i agree that there is a bit of satisfaction in 'I made that completely by hand' I think my hand would feel like its about to fall off by the time i cut five boxes worth of wood. Probably worth getting a circular saw as well.
The circuit/wiring itself was straight forward and my knowledge from my electrical engineering courses covered me understanding the majority of tube operation and i understood just from looking at datasheets and curves why tubes were better then silicon from an psychological acoustics point of view(from what i noticed, tubes are mostly even order distortion, which is smooth in every case. human mind/brain has difficulty noticing smooth transitions). But linear unregulated power supply design was initially deceptively simple.
The power supply filter you see in my project page isnt the current status of it, i discovered i 'did it wrong' and rebuilt it. im using a 10uF US military NOS PIO cap for my primary filter, and instead of having 4 47uf filters wired in series as RC filters i wired them all together to make a 188uF 'tank'. this instantly solved a hum problem that i thought was actually my wiring and really opened up my amp, it sounds beautiful now. I cant even comprehend how it will probably sound with nice speakers.
The filament supply went through many iterations too. i tried doing it full custom, and then decided/discovered that a switching instead of a linear power supply was a better way to go. Discovered on ebay i could find 15 amp(only needed 5 amps steady state, 8 amps power on) pre built with voltage adjustment for $20, so i decided it wasn't worth my time to build custom something so simple.
So, i guess i am not so adverse to failure. Plus in the case of speakers vs my amp which i felt i needed to rush it towards the end since i had no sound for my PC setup, I can take as long as i need to get these speakers done.
But back to the speakers, for the router it sounds like it would not take me very long to figure out how to do smooth curves/circles with it. And while i agree that there is a bit of satisfaction in 'I made that completely by hand' I think my hand would feel like its about to fall off by the time i cut five boxes worth of wood. Probably worth getting a circular saw as well.
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A neat thing about the architecture i used for my amplifier's power tubes is you can substitute almost any pentode you desire in there. So im not depending on the stock of, for instance in my case 807's to remain in existence. In fact, i have a box of 10 Russian NOS GU-50's sitting around that cost me maybe $40. those things are monsters in specs. 50 watts per tube and some people seem to claim there amazing sounding. Just not too many people outside of Russia have used them.
Another neat thing is because the circuit/wiring is so simple, you could, if you wanted wire a switch that would switch between Pentode/UL/Triode modes. I intend to build a 2ch baby version of my 5.1 amplifier to experiment with component choice, tube types/brands, and pentode/ul/triode modes so i can perhaps eventually find somthing 'magical' as people on these forums appear to be hunting/searching for.
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Well I'm still giving the idea of a multichannel tube amp some serious thought. I may want 6 channels, as I've wired up a speaker in the washroom so people can hear the movie dialogue when they're 'taking a break' !!!
I'm still considering a hybrid with a single triode front end and SS current buffer set up to give 1W Class A and another 9W in Class AB for the 'transients'. The problem is, I started off with SS projects and have collected some power transformers and other bits over the past couple of years which need to be used. Unfortunately, after building my first SET amp I realized that big power SS isn't going to be a big part of my future.
If you do go ahead with a 2ch baby you have more flexibility since your budget can now be higher per channel - maybe try a DHT output tube ? I have a box of 6C4Cs waiting for a future 2ch project.
I'm still considering a hybrid with a single triode front end and SS current buffer set up to give 1W Class A and another 9W in Class AB for the 'transients'. The problem is, I started off with SS projects and have collected some power transformers and other bits over the past couple of years which need to be used. Unfortunately, after building my first SET amp I realized that big power SS isn't going to be a big part of my future.
If you do go ahead with a 2ch baby you have more flexibility since your budget can now be higher per channel - maybe try a DHT output tube ? I have a box of 6C4Cs waiting for a future 2ch project.
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At this moment i would like to complete this project before i move on. I think my next move is going to be getting myself some nice headphones and building a aikido. speakers are going to cost me a bit and use up time building it. I prefer to complete a project before i move on to new ones
6 channels isnt that far different from 5 channels.. one thing for sure... i felt like a machine assembling my amp after a while 'great i soldered that part... repeat 4 more times' you wouldnt believe how much solder i used in the project as a whole... i think it was in the range of a 16-32 ounces
I don't think i am ever going back to solid state. only thing from now on ill go solid state on is subwoofers, but that's because you need some massive iron to handle subs and large number of tubes, at least from my understanding.
6 channels isnt that far different from 5 channels.. one thing for sure... i felt like a machine assembling my amp after a while 'great i soldered that part... repeat 4 more times' you wouldnt believe how much solder i used in the project as a whole... i think it was in the range of a 16-32 ounces
I don't think i am ever going back to solid state. only thing from now on ill go solid state on is subwoofers, but that's because you need some massive iron to handle subs and large number of tubes, at least from my understanding.
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I wouldn't give up on solid state, I find there's still lots of fun and interest there, but for my main stereo amp for listening pleasure I agree with you - tubes.
I found this router jig that may be of interest to you: Router Buddy Circle Jig
I found this router jig that may be of interest to you: Router Buddy Circle Jig
wow thats pretty sweet. just bought another batch of 6 high testing 807's for $40 shipped off ebay, that should along with my current two spares cover me until I move onto bigger and better tubes. I been eyeballing the directly heated pentodes, given that people like the triode type so much, ill try out dhp before dht, to give fair comparison
But back to the speakers. I asked my friend who introduced me to tube stuff and he said that if i chose a driver he would design me a box for my needs, so i did some looking about. It seems to be between the CSS EL70, the Tang Band W3-881SJ, and the Fountek FR88ex so far, any other full range drivers of note? I asked him about perhaps doing a dual driver speaker, but he claims that given my amps's power output its better suited to a full range single driver. he also seems to enjoy running 4 ohm speakers on 8 ohm taps himself, he said it adds much more 'tube sound' to it. so im willing to at least build one box and try it out. only thing i'd need to do is re-plot my load-lines for 2500 ohms instead of 5k
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A single driver is probably being recommended as most drivers are 8 Ohm and running two of them (giving you 4 Ohm or 16 Ohm) may be a poor impedance match to your amp.
I can't advise on the relative merits of these drivers. When I selected the Fountek I was looking for something that was inexpensive and had a well behaved frequency response - having found the peakiness in the Fostex 127e undesirable I wanted to avoid another driver with the same limitations. I've heard good things about these other drivers, the CSS in particular. I was also interested in the Fountek because it is less well known on this forum and there was some excitement in taking the road less travelled. It sounds really very good, but it does have a lowish sensitivity. For near field this is ok, but in a larger room or home theatre looking for more punch I'd be looking for larger drivers with 90dB of sensitivity.
I can't advise on the relative merits of these drivers. When I selected the Fountek I was looking for something that was inexpensive and had a well behaved frequency response - having found the peakiness in the Fostex 127e undesirable I wanted to avoid another driver with the same limitations. I've heard good things about these other drivers, the CSS in particular. I was also interested in the Fountek because it is less well known on this forum and there was some excitement in taking the road less travelled. It sounds really very good, but it does have a lowish sensitivity. For near field this is ok, but in a larger room or home theatre looking for more punch I'd be looking for larger drivers with 90dB of sensitivity.
these speakers will only be used in near-field, in a small room (around 10x12 feet) but yea... the whole 'running 4 ohms on 8 ohm tap' will be an experiment, if i decide to do it, at this moment im siding on not. and i did notice that towards the end of the line the w3-81sj approaches 30 ohms at 20 khz, so unless thats generally okay its still the FR88ex unless something else catches my attention, however given i have options its best to go looking about and not arbitrarily pick something and run it to the end.
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