I built a 5 channel amp and 1 sub pre-amp out of 807 power tubes with 12at7 drivers and 12au7 pre stages. I am presently re-using my previous speakers, which were the ones that came with my old logitech Z5300e.
Given the fact that im using a single 807 per audio channel for output, in single ended pentode mode i need speakers that are rated for low-ish current requirements which means i should probably find the highest sensitivity speakers that fit my space constraints. My listening area is small(about 9x12 feet), and likewise i cannot afford the space to install very large speakers. anything much larger then around 5 inches wide(or tall for center) are nearly impossible to make work.
Did some looking around and found very few speakers that were high sensitivity. the best ones i found within the form factor i need are conveniently already packaged as a 5 channel solution. the klipsch quintet
Klipsch Quintet? Home Theater System - Specifications
I already have a sub-woofer solution i am building custom. just need to work out how/what speakers to use for satellites/center.
Does anyone know of anything better? Anyone have opinions they can give of this kit for use on tube audio?
Given the fact that im using a single 807 per audio channel for output, in single ended pentode mode i need speakers that are rated for low-ish current requirements which means i should probably find the highest sensitivity speakers that fit my space constraints. My listening area is small(about 9x12 feet), and likewise i cannot afford the space to install very large speakers. anything much larger then around 5 inches wide(or tall for center) are nearly impossible to make work.
Did some looking around and found very few speakers that were high sensitivity. the best ones i found within the form factor i need are conveniently already packaged as a 5 channel solution. the klipsch quintet
Klipsch Quintet? Home Theater System - Specifications
I already have a sub-woofer solution i am building custom. just need to work out how/what speakers to use for satellites/center.
Does anyone know of anything better? Anyone have opinions they can give of this kit for use on tube audio?
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Do you plan on building cabinets? If so then a design that uses multiple drivers can be more sensitive. I think you gain 3db by using two of the same drivers. or 6db by using four. This would allow for a tall but narrow speaker design.
that seems to make sense. the center channel in the kit is 3db more sensitive, and it has a extra driver compared to rest.
the zigmahornets could work with my rear channels but my front ones need to be capable of standing on a table. given that i probably want my front and rear channels to match sound wise. probably should use same one for all four? should have mentioned that constraint earlier.
I do also realize that my desire for small speakers mean i will be missing bass response but in my head that's what the subwoofer is for.
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The Zigmas get attention because of their aesthetics. You can get better bass out of much smaller speakers with the same drivers.
Driver efficiency is, in general, proportional to driver size, so small efficient speakers is a relative thing. An efficient 3" is going to be 88-89 dB, a 4.5" 92-93 dB.
To fit within a 5" baffle a 4" driver is likely as big as you can get away with,
What kind of budget?
dave
Driver efficiency is, in general, proportional to driver size, so small efficient speakers is a relative thing. An efficient 3" is going to be 88-89 dB, a 4.5" 92-93 dB.
To fit within a 5" baffle a 4" driver is likely as big as you can get away with,
What kind of budget?
dave
I dont really want to spend too much per speaker at this moment as i need five. i was somewhat thinking $400 to $800 full system as money is tight for me at this moment and i just want something to get my feet wet in the whole tube audio stuff. I built this nice amp to get started in enjoying the tube audio scene and i have a feeling that the logitech speakers are doing nothing but putting it to shame. But at the same rate, i want to try and get the most for the moneys worth.
Given your specified numbers for efficiency those klipsch speakers do pretty good for the money? is there anything fundamentally wrong with them?
This whole setup is for use in a PC environment. My computer is my music/gaming/movie entertainment system as i dont use a television. LFE crossover is handled by the software/hardware of my xonar d2x so i dont really need to worry too much about low freq in my satellites
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We are diyers... few store bought speakers would be considered good value for the dollar.
Does your amp have 4 ohm taps? Even if it does your amp will put out the same power on those taps as the 8 ohm taps (assuming appropriate impedance speakers). So you have to look at the 91 dB figure. Add on top of that that Klipsch have been found over & over again to have very optimistic numbers. I bet a more realistic figure would be <87 dB.
And they only go down to 125 Hz (optimistic again?). I have a realistic BR design for the FE126En that i consider to be an real worls example of why that driver is better suiyed to a horn -- it goes to 120 Hz (and is a realistic 93 dB 8 ohms). Ideally, with a single sub, you'd like to XO 80-100 Hz.
And the centre uses the marketing dept sidewise MTM. To be avoided because they do not work.
There are quite a few diy solutions that would fit your needs better, and give better sound. As an explicit example (with no modesty) consider the mMar-Kel70. They are a bit wider than your spec. 5 CSS EL70s would cost $220 (+ ship). Then you'd have to build boxes, IIRC 5 of these boxes will come out of a 5x5 sheet of Baltic Birch. Flat-paks are alos available for these (panels all cut and all the bits -- one of the reasons i choose this particular box in case you weren't pre-pared to build from scratch). Still within budget. You could even get a set of 5 flat-packs witht he tarted up drivers and still be shy of the top end of your budget,
dave
I see what you are saying now.
My amplifiers output transformers are 8 ohms for the output.
so building it myself is the best. Im no carpenter, however by any means, so where would i consider getting myself some of these pre-cut packs. my budget btw isnt set in stone, it just means i would be waiting longer before considering the speaker upgrade. kind of sounds to me like you are hinting that i should increase my budget a bit
I guess small isnt really that possible with high quality. Ill have to think about my situation and decide where my priorities lay. on one hand i could go rather large for speakers but i would need to have then placed in awkward symmetry etc. Im kind of new to the audio stuff and i a little bit had it in my head that i could find something small that would sound nice.
Thank you btw for your time and patience
My amplifiers output transformers are 8 ohms for the output.
so building it myself is the best. Im no carpenter, however by any means, so where would i consider getting myself some of these pre-cut packs. my budget btw isnt set in stone, it just means i would be waiting longer before considering the speaker upgrade. kind of sounds to me like you are hinting that i should increase my budget a bit
I guess small isnt really that possible with high quality. Ill have to think about my situation and decide where my priorities lay. on one hand i could go rather large for speakers but i would need to have then placed in awkward symmetry etc. Im kind of new to the audio stuff and i a little bit had it in my head that i could find something small that would sound nice.
Thank you btw for your time and patience
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Poke around, look at the pictures, see what everyone is doing, get a better idea of the possibilities.
For small, near field, and on a budget you can't beat a single driver system.
Have a look at this thread... it eventually gets around to talking about the drivers i mentioned, and is an interesting journey
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/164832-mar-kel70-sweden.html
dave
For small, near field, and on a budget you can't beat a single driver system.
Have a look at this thread... it eventually gets around to talking about the drivers i mentioned, and is an interesting journey
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/164832-mar-kel70-sweden.html
dave
You may get five GRS 8" 'full range' from partsexpress.com for about $10/ea. Flat baffle 16" minimum dimension works well. Circular wood table tops from Loew's or Home Depot look a bit less wretched than slabs of MDF.
This will get your system up and running quick and easy. Then, you can enjoy your system while you plot greater conquests 😉
Please understand, you will spend the rest of your life plotting greater conquests... we only call this a hobby to fool outsiders 8*D
Happy Ears!
Al
PS One shiny wet spray of Dammar varnish works well, adds another ~ten bucks for a spray can from an Art supply store. Let it dry at least a day before you play them, after spraying.
This will get your system up and running quick and easy. Then, you can enjoy your system while you plot greater conquests 😉
Please understand, you will spend the rest of your life plotting greater conquests... we only call this a hobby to fool outsiders 8*D
Happy Ears!
Al
PS One shiny wet spray of Dammar varnish works well, adds another ~ten bucks for a spray can from an Art supply store. Let it dry at least a day before you play them, after spraying.
Al,
Not exactly what you'd call small?
dave
___________________________
"Money will buy you whatever is for sale." TubeGarden
Not exactly what you'd call small?
dave
___________________________
"Money will buy you whatever is for sale." TubeGarden
my output transformers are rated at 8 ohms for the speaker side. The EL70 looks nice in specs but isnt using a 4 ohm speaker on a 8 ohm tap bad? if not ill consider buying your flat-pack some time in the future for the mMar-Kel70 assuming i could buy a odd quantity?
only other question is, is it okay to have a center channel about a foot and a half higher then your screen from a acoustics pov, or will it 'sound' funny assuming ~2 foot distance from monitors is my viewing distance
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You should be using 8 ohms on 8 ohm taps for best performance (as a generalization 4 ohms on 8 ohms will increase distortion with less power, 16 ohms on 8 ohms will decrease distortion & power).
Next gen CHR might be 8 ohms, and if testing works we may offer a small FE126 BR. There will also be something to replace the uFonken, either with Fountek FR88ex or FF85WK (or whatever it is going to be called)
dave
Next gen CHR might be 8 ohms, and if testing works we may offer a small FE126 BR. There will also be something to replace the uFonken, either with Fountek FR88ex or FF85WK (or whatever it is going to be called)
dave
Dave,
Ryuji asked for comments and suggestions. What I described is the simplest path to hearing what his new amps can do. He has been listening to toy speakers. He can do much better for under a hundred bucks. Jumping directly to eight hundred is OK for retail, but, we are talking homebrew. Just my two cents. Tiny is not a good match to SE amps. Just my two cents. Size is important to some people. Sound is important to others. It does not serve any purpose to pretend we can have it both ways for a few bucks more. That has not been my experience. YMMV.
Happy Ears!
Al
Ryuji asked for comments and suggestions. What I described is the simplest path to hearing what his new amps can do. He has been listening to toy speakers. He can do much better for under a hundred bucks. Jumping directly to eight hundred is OK for retail, but, we are talking homebrew. Just my two cents. Tiny is not a good match to SE amps. Just my two cents. Size is important to some people. Sound is important to others. It does not serve any purpose to pretend we can have it both ways for a few bucks more. That has not been my experience. YMMV.
Happy Ears!
Al
I didn't mean to start a fight of any kind. I been kind of playing it as i go as a learning experience. I learned about amp construction. Much of the building process for me was understanding how things work/how to manage power/filtering. i guess its time to learn about how speakers are spec'd/there construction.
i wouldn't mind needing to construct something with a couple drivers, building vertically but my horizontal space for my drivers is limited primarily due to the fact that i have my dual monitors taking up much of my space. plus positioning of center channel will be tricky if its large. i do agree tho that im using poor quality speakers atm, and i should really get better ones.
pictures of what im dealing with for space are indirectly in my thread about my amp.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/tubes-valves/183814-5-1-channel-807-se-amplifier.html
are you guys trying to say that its not very possible to have something nice for speakers, without building large? I am not necessarily looking at this very moment for maximum quality possible. just something that would perhaps be found passable when compared to the quality of the amplifier
i wouldn't mind needing to construct something with a couple drivers, building vertically but my horizontal space for my drivers is limited primarily due to the fact that i have my dual monitors taking up much of my space. plus positioning of center channel will be tricky if its large. i do agree tho that im using poor quality speakers atm, and i should really get better ones.
pictures of what im dealing with for space are indirectly in my thread about my amp.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/tubes-valves/183814-5-1-channel-807-se-amplifier.html
are you guys trying to say that its not very possible to have something nice for speakers, without building large? I am not necessarily looking at this very moment for maximum quality possible. just something that would perhaps be found passable when compared to the quality of the amplifier
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Not at all. You just have to give up bass. These are fantastic (uFonken), but Fostex went and discontinued the drivers. They reach 100 Hz and are somewhat limited in ultimate volume.
dave
dave
well, my sound card has separated channels and i wired my amp to tube pre-amp and then pass the signal onto a self-powered subwoofer. So, Im not truely giving up bass am i? just letting a big speaker handle it. Or perhaps im horribly confused as to what im losing/how to rectify the problem
And about volume-- I do not care for it! i would rather have really high quality sound, audible at my 2 or 3 foot distance(nearfield, as you said earlier) that my neighbors wont want to go shoot me with a shotgun about. plus my ears are very sensitive to audio pressure. My amp running my crappy logitech speakers get 'too loud' for me to handle at about 40% volume comfortable listening is 8~20% depending on if its evening or daytime.
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Exactly. If you could still get the drivers, it would have been my 1st recommendation,
We have used this driver in various configurations with helper woofers to get a really good FR speaker.
There are drivers that can be used to get similar results... Fountek FR88ex. There is a version of uFonken for it, we are still playing with it. Not quite as good on 1st blush, but still quite good, and with more bass potential. The Martello has pleased people, one set made from cardboard.
The other are the new 2nd generation Mark Audio Alpair 6 (metal & paper cone versions)... mine are still breaking in, but Mark has a pair of uFonken and was challenged to make these new drivers better.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/markaudio/177060-alpair-6m-gen-2-metal-introduction.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/markaudio/177018-alpair-6p-gen-2-paper-introduction.html
dave
the FR88ex looks interesting. for the unstable end of the response curve i could run a tweeter and cross over those frequencies correct? any designs for doing just that? leaving it to sub to handle low freq, a 3 inch 'full range' for the middle half and finishing off with a small tweeter for 10k+?
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