Stratus, you've missed the essence of the discussion you raised or that was raised regarding the Redbook standard. It was NOT set to satisfy a state-of-the-art capability at the time. It was NOT set to meet some future state-of-the-art. It was set to meet a commercially viable need, and nothing more.
It would have been easy enough to permit a longer word length to permit higher bit depth. Or even a FLAG that opened up the option.
As far as I am concerned there is no good reason that I know of that no one has set up or suggested a defacto "standard" for higher bitrate, deeper bit depth recording on a CDR medium.
The main benefit of the CD or CDR is that it is a portable and commercially sellable media.
Quite frankly if I was in a position to do so, I would attempt to form a coalition of mfrs and small labels to do precisely what I suggested above.
_-_-bear
It would have been easy enough to permit a longer word length to permit higher bit depth. Or even a FLAG that opened up the option.
As far as I am concerned there is no good reason that I know of that no one has set up or suggested a defacto "standard" for higher bitrate, deeper bit depth recording on a CDR medium.
The main benefit of the CD or CDR is that it is a portable and commercially sellable media.
Quite frankly if I was in a position to do so, I would attempt to form a coalition of mfrs and small labels to do precisely what I suggested above.
_-_-bear
The biggest advantage soundwise of LP's over CD's is that they were cut before the soundwars began, so compression wasn't so overused. There was no intention of an LP to be played in the car and have to overpower the Z28 in the next lane. Another advantage of the LP, nobody rips them off to sell for their next crack hit. When I worked 3rd shift in a truck shop near the freeway, skinny guys were always coming by trying to sell us car radios and CD collections, as well as guns, boom boxes . . . .
And the big advantage of picture tubes, is that an HDTV is so heavy with one, no crack head will steal that either. I know, I own the last HDTV made with a CRT.
TD125 + SME 3009/Stax UA9 + Shure Ultra 500.
Preproduction Phily CD100 loaner (they sat on their butts, with feedback from a number in the Eindhoven belt, before hitting the production button. Think Video2000 disaster)
For me, no go till ~'87-'88
(just cheapo Philies for convenience, still have a CD360 from that era lying somewhere)
Nowadays, an oldy but a goody TD147, a new Thorens, plus something in the middle.
And CD transport/DAC, sure.
(should have gotten the gun, Indy.)
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learned lots, etc.
Hiten,
sorry for the distractions and wandering away from the original intent of this thread and your question.
Now if you have a specific question regarding a specific turntable/arm/cart/phono stage question, perhaps some or all of us could help you out.
To me "high-end" refers to the compromises that the designers/makers made/make to get to a desired level of performance. So an economy product can be "high end". Specifically even fairly "low-end" products can give excellent performance. The limit of their performance may have been the arm or internal wiring or the phono stage used, or, or, or...
Examples of this can be illustrated with many of the old, noisy idler wheel turntables: Dual, Lenco, Garrard, Thorens (idler/belt drives), Russco, etc.(in no particular order). Many old belt drives are excellent as well: Ariston, Linn, AR (Acoustic Research), Some of the Pioneer tables, and Yamaha, and....finally some direct drives like Technics (SL12XX series), Micro-Seiki, Sony (PS5500 on up), Kenwood/Trio (KD500), etc
Are you getting started in vinyl or trying to educate yourself prior to starting?
Hiten,
sorry for the distractions and wandering away from the original intent of this thread and your question.
Now if you have a specific question regarding a specific turntable/arm/cart/phono stage question, perhaps some or all of us could help you out.
To me "high-end" refers to the compromises that the designers/makers made/make to get to a desired level of performance. So an economy product can be "high end". Specifically even fairly "low-end" products can give excellent performance. The limit of their performance may have been the arm or internal wiring or the phono stage used, or, or, or...
Examples of this can be illustrated with many of the old, noisy idler wheel turntables: Dual, Lenco, Garrard, Thorens (idler/belt drives), Russco, etc.(in no particular order). Many old belt drives are excellent as well: Ariston, Linn, AR (Acoustic Research), Some of the Pioneer tables, and Yamaha, and....finally some direct drives like Technics (SL12XX series), Micro-Seiki, Sony (PS5500 on up), Kenwood/Trio (KD500), etc
Are you getting started in vinyl or trying to educate yourself prior to starting?
Second the opinion. The best turntable I've ever owned or heard is a $59 "BIC" I bought in 1978. I've got a mid-range Shure M97 Era IV cartridge on it. As sold the arm was slightly mis-aligned, so I added a washer under the cartridge to line it up. It has taken me 33 years and a $1000 used system plus repairs (see tag below) to afford speakers and amp good enough I might be able to hear something slightly better. The forgotten BIC is superior to the AR turntable I got rid of that is on everybody's "Okay" list. You won't see this BIC brand in India, but use your ears. If a turntable at the charity resale shop tracks at 1.5 g or below and lines the cartridge up with the groove,(flat to surface, tangent to groove) it might be worth a listen. I found another BIC at a yard sale recently for $20, so I won't be spending a lot of time in boutique hifi shops (of which there aren't any in this state or the next, anyway) looking for the nirvana turntable.
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No problem Nanook. In forums this happens. Me myself have sometimes wondered off the thread. so no issues.
Yes, thread was started for little bit of education. Have been listening to vinyls for almost two years now. It all started with a TT system my granddad bought. After almost 25 years I plugged it in and to my surprise was still working, played few vinyls and said to my self this sound is sweet lets collect some vinyls and listen. Have surfed the net, participated in forums so know little bit of audio stuff and vinyls. Came to know about DIYaudio through a friend. Became a member because lots of knowledgeable and helpful people in the forum.
I listen to all types of music pop, rock, western classical, Indian classical on Technics SL-2000 TT, Pioneer SA-6750 Amp, Cartridge is M-44 7 (Conical stylus)(have put aside Technics eliptical stylus & cartridge). I Also listen to Pioneer 3 in 1 system which I think has PL-12D TT. Have Shure Test record and protractor downloaded from net. Sometimes I evaluate this system as this... to look for speed variations I listen to Indian classical vocals where singer sings a note (?) for good amount of time (like an opera singer) to notice any difference in speed. For rumble noise I listen to clarity, smoothness and decay of flute sound. and for authenticity I listen to various instruments which I have heard live. So far my system is a little bright sounding and low frequency punch is not there. So when budget permits a new TT+amp is in line.
Indianajo : That's precisely was also at the back of my mind, and when a turntable almost does its thing as good as high end one it makes me happy
Yes, thread was started for little bit of education. Have been listening to vinyls for almost two years now. It all started with a TT system my granddad bought. After almost 25 years I plugged it in and to my surprise was still working, played few vinyls and said to my self this sound is sweet lets collect some vinyls and listen. Have surfed the net, participated in forums so know little bit of audio stuff and vinyls. Came to know about DIYaudio through a friend. Became a member because lots of knowledgeable and helpful people in the forum.
I listen to all types of music pop, rock, western classical, Indian classical on Technics SL-2000 TT, Pioneer SA-6750 Amp, Cartridge is M-44 7 (Conical stylus)(have put aside Technics eliptical stylus & cartridge). I Also listen to Pioneer 3 in 1 system which I think has PL-12D TT. Have Shure Test record and protractor downloaded from net. Sometimes I evaluate this system as this... to look for speed variations I listen to Indian classical vocals where singer sings a note (?) for good amount of time (like an opera singer) to notice any difference in speed. For rumble noise I listen to clarity, smoothness and decay of flute sound. and for authenticity I listen to various instruments which I have heard live. So far my system is a little bright sounding and low frequency punch is not there. So when budget permits a new TT+amp is in line.
Indianajo : That's precisely was also at the back of my mind, and when a turntable almost does its thing as good as high end one it makes me happy
Dude, you need to move! Just kidding...
Actually I guess you can find this sort of activity just about anywhere here, our big local problem seems to be heroin, (paid for by the same sorts of activities you mentioned) followed by engineered drugs popular with the college crowd and it only takes a minor % of the populace doing it to know there is a problem..
Hello everyone, instead of starting separate thread posting few queries here. Hope its related to high end turntables.
As my turntable belt was loose I decided to replace it. New belt is little tight and punch and slam which was not present earlier has returned. I have noticed it takes about 2 seconds less to complete 33 1/3 revolutions. Turntable is probably Pioneer PL-15D and from service manual I guess it has 4 pole synchronous AC motor.
So does torque play any role in sound reproduction at same speed ?
If belt is tight does ac motor increase its speed as AC motor speed is frequency based and with load it tries to maintain the speed ?
How do classic turntables like Garrard 301 etc. using AC motors incorporate speed control in them ?
Thanks.
As my turntable belt was loose I decided to replace it. New belt is little tight and punch and slam which was not present earlier has returned. I have noticed it takes about 2 seconds less to complete 33 1/3 revolutions. Turntable is probably Pioneer PL-15D and from service manual I guess it has 4 pole synchronous AC motor.
So does torque play any role in sound reproduction at same speed ?
If belt is tight does ac motor increase its speed as AC motor speed is frequency based and with load it tries to maintain the speed ?
How do classic turntables like Garrard 301 etc. using AC motors incorporate speed control in them ?
Thanks.
Join vinylengine and download the 50Hz stroboscope disk, print in out and check the speed of your turntable. If the old belt was slipping the turntable would run slow, the new belt should prevent slippage and the table should be running at the right speed. All things being equal higher available torque should reduce variations in speed due to changing loads such as cold lubricants and changes in drag due to modulation levels on the disk you are playing.
Tables like the 301/401 and TD-124 use an eddy current brake to vary the load on the motor, noting that the motor in these tables are 4 pole induction types, (not synchronous) and speed is a function of line frequency, load, and line voltage in that approximate order. (IIRC torque is relatively constant so as the load is increased speed decreases relative to a fixed supply voltage and frequency.. A certain amount of slippage is allowed before the motor looses lock with the line frequency. A reduction in line voltage will result in a small reduction in torque to a point.)
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You can download my free arc template generator (3rd item down) which also prints very good strobe disks. They're generated locally so will usually be better than image files. Then use the template generator to get your cartridge lined up properly.
IMO, the people who mixed and QC'd the vinyl had more of a tendency to listen and adjusted as needed. I think the idea that CDs have "perfect" response caused a lot of tapes to simply be transferred to CD, regardless of what the result sounded like. LPs aren't very good in pure technical terms- just look at a "steady" signal on a 'scope, but they usually sound better than the CD of the same material. IMO again, it's funny that people are complaining about the original CD standards when the CD itself is nearly obsolete as a music delivery format.
IMO, the people who mixed and QC'd the vinyl had more of a tendency to listen and adjusted as needed. I think the idea that CDs have "perfect" response caused a lot of tapes to simply be transferred to CD, regardless of what the result sounded like. LPs aren't very good in pure technical terms- just look at a "steady" signal on a 'scope, but they usually sound better than the CD of the same material. IMO again, it's funny that people are complaining about the original CD standards when the CD itself is nearly obsolete as a music delivery format.
There's a nice postscript strobedisk program which was posted
a while ago. (you will probably need to print using Linux, or have
ghostscript installed, or own a PS printer).
See the link here.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/swap-meet/188525-wtb-strobe-disc-light.html
a while ago. (you will probably need to print using Linux, or have
ghostscript installed, or own a PS printer).
See the link here.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/swap-meet/188525-wtb-strobe-disc-light.html
Thanks Conrad. I had simple protractor. But yours look precise. will definitely use it.
Thanks Quadtech. I have access to an imagesetter, so I think I can print postscript files.
I checked the speed with strobdisc with...
Tighter Belt : frequency bands move little ahead in the direction of rotation so I think speed is little more than 33 1/3.
Old Loose Belt : Platter takes 1/2 seconds to start and reach normal speed, but disc strobe band slowly moves in opposite direction.
I think If I place some more load for example a disc stabliser I can lower the speed. or make a new brass motor pulley. Any other simple solution ?
Thanks Quadtech. I have access to an imagesetter, so I think I can print postscript files.
I checked the speed with strobdisc with...
Tighter Belt : frequency bands move little ahead in the direction of rotation so I think speed is little more than 33 1/3.
Old Loose Belt : Platter takes 1/2 seconds to start and reach normal speed, but disc strobe band slowly moves in opposite direction.
I think If I place some more load for example a disc stabliser I can lower the speed. or make a new brass motor pulley. Any other simple solution ?
Not a simple solution, but since you're in diyAudio you can build a turntable motor controler (for AC synchronous motors), and vary the speed as you wish.
Yes. Not only "modern high end", but even very old record players such as the Garrard 301 (mid 1950s), once you know to use them properly.
By the way, IMHO, "modern high end" turntables are very overpriced compared to what you can get 2nd hand.
Hmm?
There are more challenges for putting music at the inner grooves but they can be overcome.
Yes, see the RIAA curve. But the end result is flat response at your amplifier.
Stylus tip resonance: There are many resonances but let's just call it "cantilever resonance". They don't dampen it. On very good cartridges (be it MM, MC, etc) the resonance is placed beyond 20KHz (beyond audible range).
On acceptable MM/MI cartridges the resonance is between 10-16KHz and it's filtered electronically by the cartridge's coils, preamp input impedance, and cable capacitance.
On several MC cartridge the resonance is also between 10-16Khz and they damp it mechanically.
The best solution is to move the resonances outside the audible band. Any other thing is a compromise.
They're not always made mono. That's a choice of the cutting engineer. Very low frequencies have poor localization so it's not a problem to make them mono.
Yes, it does make sense. UNLESS the DAC used by the cutting engineers is much better than the DAC at your home system.
Fairly accurate enough to be of no consequence. Even on moderately priced cartridges.
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