Hi!
A greenhorn question for you...
I am going to use my Marantz CD-75 with 1541/7022 as a transport, and I would like to try the non oversampling mod as described by among others http://www.lampizator.eu/Nonoversampling/NOS.html
The idea of a transport with tube is also very tempting, as described here CD Transport Digi-Lampizator
My question is, can these two mods be combined?
Is it still possible to find the spdif-signal on the 14th leg of the 7220 after the NOS-mod, and if not - is it possible on a general basis to say where I can find it?🙂
A greenhorn question for you...
I am going to use my Marantz CD-75 with 1541/7022 as a transport, and I would like to try the non oversampling mod as described by among others http://www.lampizator.eu/Nonoversampling/NOS.html
The idea of a transport with tube is also very tempting, as described here CD Transport Digi-Lampizator
My question is, can these two mods be combined?
Is it still possible to find the spdif-signal on the 14th leg of the 7220 after the NOS-mod, and if not - is it possible on a general basis to say where I can find it?🙂
Hi, I think you have misunderstood the nature or technical implications of the two mods you mentioned.
1. The first mod is NOS ( non oversampling).That is you bypass 7220 and reconnect I2S signal namely WS (word clock) ,left and right signal to DAC
in the same box.( I may have missed another signal).3 signals in all.
Oversampling is normally designed into a cd player or external DAC unless stated otherwise.
2. The second mod is simply adding a RF tube buffer to the output of
7220.(No bypass).
3. Now this is the important difference that you should know.If you want to use your cd player as transport then you only tap the spdif signal from the RCA connector provided or TOSlink ( optical) if available on the machine to external DAC So no modification is needed. If none is available then you can tap from the laser decoder IC.
4. If you want to do both mods to your machine it is possible but it may be
too much for you should something go wrong.I suggest to do one at a time if that's what you want.In otherwords the second mod should be done
when you want to use 7720 and the internal DAC.
5. Of course you can tube buffer the SPDIF signal but that is adding complexicity when you are just learning to do mods.
Hope this clear to you. singa
1. The first mod is NOS ( non oversampling).That is you bypass 7220 and reconnect I2S signal namely WS (word clock) ,left and right signal to DAC
in the same box.( I may have missed another signal).3 signals in all.
Oversampling is normally designed into a cd player or external DAC unless stated otherwise.
2. The second mod is simply adding a RF tube buffer to the output of
7220.(No bypass).
3. Now this is the important difference that you should know.If you want to use your cd player as transport then you only tap the spdif signal from the RCA connector provided or TOSlink ( optical) if available on the machine to external DAC So no modification is needed. If none is available then you can tap from the laser decoder IC.
4. If you want to do both mods to your machine it is possible but it may be
too much for you should something go wrong.I suggest to do one at a time if that's what you want.In otherwords the second mod should be done
when you want to use 7720 and the internal DAC.
5. Of course you can tube buffer the SPDIF signal but that is adding complexicity when you are just learning to do mods.
Hope this clear to you. singa
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Thanks a lot for reply Singa!
The soldering work itself will be done by someone skilled, so I don`t worry about anything going bad. I am going to use the player as a transport only, but will try some modding 🙂
Do I understand you correctly that the NOS mod will also affect the signal on the SPDIF, not only to the internal DAC?
After NOSing the 7220 I quess there will be no SPDIF signal on the 14th leg of the 7220 any more... Do you know where I can tap into the SPDIF after NOSing and send it directly to the SPDIF connector or through a tube buffer?
KR
The soldering work itself will be done by someone skilled, so I don`t worry about anything going bad. I am going to use the player as a transport only, but will try some modding 🙂
Do I understand you correctly that the NOS mod will also affect the signal on the SPDIF, not only to the internal DAC?
After NOSing the 7220 I quess there will be no SPDIF signal on the 14th leg of the 7220 any more... Do you know where I can tap into the SPDIF after NOSing and send it directly to the SPDIF connector or through a tube buffer?
KR
Let me comment on this. NOS will not affect the SPDIF signal, because the SPDIF has no oversampling. You should not remove the 7220, just tap its input I2S pins 1, 2 and 3 instead of its output (4x oversampled) I2S pins 18, 16 and 15, going to the 1541 pins 1, 2 and 3. But if you use the player as a transport, NOS does not make any sense...
IMO, all those "lampizator" mods are just crippling the sound of the CD players that are "modded" by that guy. He is obsessed with one thing and managed to have a credule audience in people that have no experience in the audio field, don't know how a CD should sound but are impressed by a "retro" look, makes them feel "eclectic" and "not understand" or "out of main stream".
Have you had the oportunity to A/B-test any players with and without the mods "lampizator" describes? In what way is the sound crippled?
For me sounded like it has fake harmonics and distortions.
I did try the "easy" mod - a TDA1541 player with the SAA7220 bypassed... with better OpAmps than original.
And I put it back as it was.
I did try the "easy" mod - a TDA1541 player with the SAA7220 bypassed... with better OpAmps than original.
And I put it back as it was.
As far as I understand, and correct me if I am wrong, the NOS mod is more widely adopted than just by Lampizators "credule audience in people that have no experience in the audio field" ?
I guess you are not one of those "people that have no experience in the audio field", and rolled your OpAmps to new ones widely considered to be better, and of the correct type, voltage specs and so on.
If so, the OpAmp rolling is not likely to be the cause of "fake harmonics and distortions"....
If oshifis is correct in that "NOS will not affect the SPDIF signal, because the SPDIF has no oversampling", and the mods you did resulted in "fake harmonics and distorsions", that would imply (ruling out the use of the wrong OpAmps) that the SPDIF signal by nature have these charateristics because it is not oversampled...
That somehow doesn`t seem likely either....
What are you talking about? The OpAms are not on SPDIF path... NOS/OS has nothing to do with SPDIF either, it is "happening" because of the conversion to analog filtering requirements (some dudes explained why: Nyqust-Shannon), is not necessar for the digital domain.
SPDIF is just a way to transmit the digital signal to an exterior DAC/receiver. THERE will be OS when is converted to analog (in that DAC/receiver DAC side).
SPDIF is just a way to transmit the digital signal to an exterior DAC/receiver. THERE will be OS when is converted to analog (in that DAC/receiver DAC side).
Sorry, I can`t see why you think that I wrote anything about OpAms in the SPDIF path.
You tell me you have rolled OpAmps and done a NOS mod to the 7220.
I find it hard to believe that changing the OpAmps for better ones of the right kind produces "fake harmonics and distortions"
That leaves the NOS... If bypassing the oversampling on the 7220 creates "fake harmonics and distortions", then what about the signal on the SPDIF which has not been oversampled?
If it is the NOS mod that has created the problems, I would think that the naturally NOS SPDIF signal contain the same problems?
Sounds strange to me that oversampling in an external DAC will fix "fake harmonics and distortions"...
That`s what I am talking about, once more 😉
NO. The SPDIF will be upsampled in the "outside world" when is converted to analog. That's the problem, the DAC and what comes after it, not the digital signal itself.
You cannot build a proper ANALOG filter at the output of a NOS DAC. You can build fairly easy it when the signal is OS...
NOS sounds bad becaus of the missing brickwall filter that is REQUIRED by the two guys above.
You cannot build a proper ANALOG filter at the output of a NOS DAC. You can build fairly easy it when the signal is OS...
NOS sounds bad becaus of the missing brickwall filter that is REQUIRED by the two guys above.
Are we going off the question ???
Though the question of whether NOS is good or bad is very interesting and ultimately a matter of personnal preference, I think we have drifted a little away from the original posting.
Yes, you can combine the 2 mods. It is possible to perform the NOS mod while retaining the 7220. The SPDIF signal will still be obtainable.
Ignore the debate as to whether NOS is "better" or not and ....
Just Go For It !!
Andy
.
Though the question of whether NOS is good or bad is very interesting and ultimately a matter of personnal preference, I think we have drifted a little away from the original posting.
Yes, you can combine the 2 mods. It is possible to perform the NOS mod while retaining the 7220. The SPDIF signal will still be obtainable.
Ignore the debate as to whether NOS is "better" or not and ....
Just Go For It !!
Andy
.
SoNic_real_one: Ok, there is different opinions of this as anything else. No need to call people who think differently "credule audience in people that have no experience", as in every other aspect in life. I`ll have to try for myself I guess 🙂
poynton: Thanks! It would be interesting to do both mods, then I can compare the internal Dac with my external Dac.
Yes, it has been a little drift in this thread, but the debate of whether NOS is good or bad is interesting.
I have been partly responsible for the drift myself, as it would have been interesting to hear the views from someone who has done the "Lampazitor mods".
I thought SoNic_real_one could be one of those with experience with this, saying that "all those "lampizator" mods are just crippling the sound of the CD players that are "modded" by that guy".
But (not surprisingly) he has no hands-on experience with the mods most closely associated with the "Lampazitor" himself.
OpAmp rolling and NOS moding is as far as I can see widely adopted, and it would not be correct to say that this is because of the Lampazitor.
If there is one thing the "Lampazitor" is "obsessed" about, wouldn`t that be the very obvious - tubes??
So, does anybody out there have real experience with Lampazitors tube-mods, and for that reason some interesting opinions about these mods? 🙂
poynton: Thanks! It would be interesting to do both mods, then I can compare the internal Dac with my external Dac.
Yes, it has been a little drift in this thread, but the debate of whether NOS is good or bad is interesting.
I have been partly responsible for the drift myself, as it would have been interesting to hear the views from someone who has done the "Lampazitor mods".
I thought SoNic_real_one could be one of those with experience with this, saying that "all those "lampizator" mods are just crippling the sound of the CD players that are "modded" by that guy".
But (not surprisingly) he has no hands-on experience with the mods most closely associated with the "Lampazitor" himself.
OpAmp rolling and NOS moding is as far as I can see widely adopted, and it would not be correct to say that this is because of the Lampazitor.
If there is one thing the "Lampazitor" is "obsessed" about, wouldn`t that be the very obvious - tubes??
So, does anybody out there have real experience with Lampazitors tube-mods, and for that reason some interesting opinions about these mods? 🙂
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Yep, it's a conspiration. There is zero, none, zilch, established manufacturers to adopt NOS in their CD desings. They want to keept the great quality of NOS just for an eclectic group, a secret society...
Of course you have on the other hand the "liberating" group of NOS "lampazitors" that will end this terror of OS instituted by Sony, Phillips, Denon, Marantz, Pioneer, Yamaha, Meridian, NAD, Esoteric, Benchmark, Cambridge Audio, Harman Kardon, Numark, Teac in complicity with TI, AD, Wolfson, CL...
Luckly we have now the chinese Hi-End audio that brings us CD players with tubes via eBay. oh, wait, they are using OS too... conspiration is getting everywhere!
Of course you have on the other hand the "liberating" group of NOS "lampazitors" that will end this terror of OS instituted by Sony, Phillips, Denon, Marantz, Pioneer, Yamaha, Meridian, NAD, Esoteric, Benchmark, Cambridge Audio, Harman Kardon, Numark, Teac in complicity with TI, AD, Wolfson, CL...
Luckly we have now the chinese Hi-End audio that brings us CD players with tubes via eBay. oh, wait, they are using OS too... conspiration is getting everywhere!
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I do have some experience with Lapizator mods, tube and other. I must say I am richer for the experience. On the tube front, I have followed his recommendations for 6n2p output on an Arcam tda1541 based cdp and a Sony ad1865 based cdp. The outcome is quite incredible.
It is not just about the tubes, although they are quite fine compared to the opamps. In the case of the 1541 its all about purity of power, quality of the I2S signal and simplicity. Everything counts. His site is hard to follow. His style may rub you the wrong way. But if you pay attention, there is quite a lot of wisdom that will pay dividends if simply copied but pay handsomely it used as a springboard to your own research.
Hi all,
seems as OS/NOS are both sides of one wall, you would never overcome without touching the other side 😉.
Ok, someone asked for experience. As described somewhere here, I exhumed my pretty old Philips CD460 and made the Lampizator NOS-conversion (bypassed 7220). As it's easy to fool yourself, I bought a second CD460 for A/B comparison. Only the power supply, C's and Diodes have been modified the same way like on No. 1.
On the shelf still sits my original Philips CD204 and as a fourth Player my well optimized, CDM-12.3-based DIY. So there is enough space for playing around ...
First perhaps it has to be explained, what we want to achieve: Listen to what every single Guy will call "good music". The first one cares more about datasheets, Oszi and measurements, the second one likes to hear every single detail, what the third Guy will call boring sound a.s.o.. And that (for me) is the point: As nobody has the same DNA, nobody can proclaim This or That as the one and only Truth.
Pars practica:
CDM 12.3 -> garbage, whatever I tried to modify. Boring, slow, number cruncher on valium. That is the palyer, I've been listen to over allmost 10 years!
CD460, w/OS: Not that bad, somehow imprecise on complex passages.
CD204: The Preceptor, friendly, but not to friendly, strict but fair. A Player you have to listen at keenly, to understand his altitude and attitude 😉
CD460 NON-OS: This Player seems to say "Hey, stop messing around with that kind of playthings, listen to me, I'll make your day, I'm fast, I'm going forward!". Really impressive for sure, music seems to come more direct (don't know how to explain - try to explain the colour red to a blind man ...).
So, the Non-OS CD460 now is my acoustic Walhalla? No. As it goes as you become older, you're not impressed that fast as with 15 years. And somehow you start to look behind the scenes. Sometimes there's only hot air to find ...
Also I did this testing with a self-designed tube-out, based on 6DJ8 and 12AX7 instead of the OPs (BB in both of my CD460 in the moment). Not the biggest improvement, if at all. Perhaps different, to be discussed also. I tried to make the amplification analog to the OP, and the result was an almost identical sound. But Tubes are much more beautiful than any OP, that's for sure 😉
So I still keep switching between my Players, which in some kind of music go the same way. Perhaps a little bit more colour here or there. But on some other kind of music the go pretty different ways.
It's like in real life, where Preceptors, working man, students and kids sometimes understand well each other - and sometimes not.
Statement: The most important thing when listening to music is: Emotion! If the 10€-EBay-bling-player can give me more than a 10.000€-High-End-Bombast-Player, it will be hard not to lie to yourself. So it goes with Non-OS: If it suites you or not, if it is right or not, garbage or walhalla is a personal thing. Try, and try not to be
😉
seems as OS/NOS are both sides of one wall, you would never overcome without touching the other side 😉.
Ok, someone asked for experience. As described somewhere here, I exhumed my pretty old Philips CD460 and made the Lampizator NOS-conversion (bypassed 7220). As it's easy to fool yourself, I bought a second CD460 for A/B comparison. Only the power supply, C's and Diodes have been modified the same way like on No. 1.
On the shelf still sits my original Philips CD204 and as a fourth Player my well optimized, CDM-12.3-based DIY. So there is enough space for playing around ...
First perhaps it has to be explained, what we want to achieve: Listen to what every single Guy will call "good music". The first one cares more about datasheets, Oszi and measurements, the second one likes to hear every single detail, what the third Guy will call boring sound a.s.o.. And that (for me) is the point: As nobody has the same DNA, nobody can proclaim This or That as the one and only Truth.
Pars practica:
CDM 12.3 -> garbage, whatever I tried to modify. Boring, slow, number cruncher on valium. That is the palyer, I've been listen to over allmost 10 years!
CD460, w/OS: Not that bad, somehow imprecise on complex passages.
CD204: The Preceptor, friendly, but not to friendly, strict but fair. A Player you have to listen at keenly, to understand his altitude and attitude 😉
CD460 NON-OS: This Player seems to say "Hey, stop messing around with that kind of playthings, listen to me, I'll make your day, I'm fast, I'm going forward!". Really impressive for sure, music seems to come more direct (don't know how to explain - try to explain the colour red to a blind man ...).
So, the Non-OS CD460 now is my acoustic Walhalla? No. As it goes as you become older, you're not impressed that fast as with 15 years. And somehow you start to look behind the scenes. Sometimes there's only hot air to find ...
Also I did this testing with a self-designed tube-out, based on 6DJ8 and 12AX7 instead of the OPs (BB in both of my CD460 in the moment). Not the biggest improvement, if at all. Perhaps different, to be discussed also. I tried to make the amplification analog to the OP, and the result was an almost identical sound. But Tubes are much more beautiful than any OP, that's for sure 😉
So I still keep switching between my Players, which in some kind of music go the same way. Perhaps a little bit more colour here or there. But on some other kind of music the go pretty different ways.
It's like in real life, where Preceptors, working man, students and kids sometimes understand well each other - and sometimes not.
Statement: The most important thing when listening to music is: Emotion! If the 10€-EBay-bling-player can give me more than a 10.000€-High-End-Bombast-Player, it will be hard not to lie to yourself. So it goes with Non-OS: If it suites you or not, if it is right or not, garbage or walhalla is a personal thing. Try, and try not to be
😉
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I have made a free standing Lampizator based on the 6N2P valve using a dual power supply. I have to say that it works very well with the TDA1541 chipped players. I have tried it with the Marantz CD50 and the Naim CD3. While very good with the Marantz, it is superb with the CD3, in fact it is better all round than a Wadia 16 I had for a while.
Try the mods for yourself, I was very impressed with them and also the advice from the web site as it is based on practical experience.
Happy playing and listening,
Alex.
Try the mods for yourself, I was very impressed with them and also the advice from the web site as it is based on practical experience.
Happy playing and listening,
Alex.
All were wrong?
Hello all and especially those who plans to build their first own Lampizator.
I have owned two basic CD players Pioneer XXX and Nak MB-3s whatever.
Both work fine...They work way better than any Reel-to-Reel Tape Recorder ... at least do not wear the tracks, and jump quick songs... If I sit backward and you switch between I can not tell you the difference...really.
BUT WAIT ... there is a new secret technology now...no one at Studer Revox in 1965 thought of it... maybe German and Japanese Electrical engineers are so STUPID ??? No one ever placed a LAMPIZATEOUR at the output of the DAC... how genious...!!!
I wonder how many degrees the guy who invented the thing has...? How many nights he worked on destroying all noise and hum ?
Since he can tell the SOUND difference between real GOOD triode like 6N6P and not so good ones like ECC83. Or maybe he has a degree in Music ???
What you hear my friends is 3th, 5th and n-th harmonic distortions on a higher power... (THD's)... that is what you hear, no wonder he re-discovered his CD's ...o yes and something for you to read:
Tubes Do Something Special Letters | Stereophile.com
Now all those studios with wasted millions of dollars for outdated recording equipment are going to run to buy Russian Tubes and rush to "Lamizate", the price of Russian tubes may soar overnight like the stocks of ENRON Energy and Lehman Brothers !!!
Like Englishman saying: If it sounds too good to be true, it probably isn't !
The Bulgarian OldSchoolMan
Hello all and especially those who plans to build their first own Lampizator.
I have owned two basic CD players Pioneer XXX and Nak MB-3s whatever.
Both work fine...They work way better than any Reel-to-Reel Tape Recorder ... at least do not wear the tracks, and jump quick songs... If I sit backward and you switch between I can not tell you the difference...really.
BUT WAIT ... there is a new secret technology now...no one at Studer Revox in 1965 thought of it... maybe German and Japanese Electrical engineers are so STUPID ??? No one ever placed a LAMPIZATEOUR at the output of the DAC... how genious...!!!
I wonder how many degrees the guy who invented the thing has...? How many nights he worked on destroying all noise and hum ?
Since he can tell the SOUND difference between real GOOD triode like 6N6P and not so good ones like ECC83. Or maybe he has a degree in Music ???
What you hear my friends is 3th, 5th and n-th harmonic distortions on a higher power... (THD's)... that is what you hear, no wonder he re-discovered his CD's ...o yes and something for you to read:
Tubes Do Something Special Letters | Stereophile.com
Now all those studios with wasted millions of dollars for outdated recording equipment are going to run to buy Russian Tubes and rush to "Lamizate", the price of Russian tubes may soar overnight like the stocks of ENRON Energy and Lehman Brothers !!!
Like Englishman saying: If it sounds too good to be true, it probably isn't !
The Bulgarian OldSchoolMan
Hi, One cannot generalise from a Stereophile article without examining the
context in which it is written and the subsequent exchange between the magazine editor and the author in which the editor suggest a fairer test
senario.
According to conventional electronics and audio wisdom the odd
harmonics ie. 3,5,7th, etc. are hard or uncomfortable to the ears whereas
the even harmonics, 2nd, 4th tec. are rather pleasant and therefore are
tolerated in music reproduced by a singled ended tube amplifier.The common
notion that it is euphonic is erroneous because there are really no official
investigation as far as documentation is concerned from relavant bodies like
the AES.(audio engineering soceity).
I suspect because of the bias against the odd harmonics given the
aural experience of most audiophiles not withstanding, no one truely know
the physics of this phenomena.this has to do with the nature of reality and
it's implications to the scientific community which is still at odds with
what constitutes reality/life versus the quest for a "unified field theory" of which there are a few contending hypothesies competing to explain what reality is really about.Nature is an efficient intelligence and the answers are there if one care to look. singa😉
I did had some experience on the Lampization, I have to say that this is the reason I am now a tube people. The introduction of tube stage via modification on beat up CD player pull me into the tube theory. Even Lampizator once mentioned that he was inspired by Thorsten on this area with trial & error. I know for a fact that the tube stage will easily please the listener if designed properly. Here is a link fm Thorsten's site & explain everything you need to know why tube stage in CD is needed over opamps.
http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/xentar/1179/theory/vasfda/vasfda.html
On the other hand, the NOSed 1541 actually did had a few high-end products/DAC on the market, Zanden for e.g. & I have to mention that Thorsten do have a great way to compensate the NOSed 1541 via carefully designed tube stage. Search this forum & you would be able to find it. Even try it & you would not look back if implement correctly, I'm sure. I carry my beat up Sony CDP-750 (NOSed tube stage) around & compare it to a lot of CD systems. Nobody expect the shame such a **** box put onto those $$$ CD system or DAC....
http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/xentar/1179/theory/vasfda/vasfda.html
On the other hand, the NOSed 1541 actually did had a few high-end products/DAC on the market, Zanden for e.g. & I have to mention that Thorsten do have a great way to compensate the NOSed 1541 via carefully designed tube stage. Search this forum & you would be able to find it. Even try it & you would not look back if implement correctly, I'm sure. I carry my beat up Sony CDP-750 (NOSed tube stage) around & compare it to a lot of CD systems. Nobody expect the shame such a **** box put onto those $$$ CD system or DAC....
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