Sorry if this makes you feeling like being rude.That was not my intention.You see I try to learn things and say what I know. I may be wrong, as you said,but I am not an idiot and know all.
Please correct me and teach me about the subject.
And take some time to read my answer to SY.
B.L.
Nope, not in the slightest. Just like SY, I'm totally lost here. But it doesn't matter - I asked the question of Globulator anyway.....🙂
(a little bit more time now)
In the specific context of consumer digital audio replay
oversampling and upsampling are utterly identical: increasing
the sample rate of a given digital audio stream, by inserting
and/or substituting samples, followed by digital-domain
low-pass filtering (reconstruction filtering, anti-imaging filtering)
at half the original sample frequency.
While the terms are not formally defined, there is a slight
ad-hoc difference in that 'oversampling' is only ever used
when the new sample rate is an integer multiple of the original
one, while 'up' can denote both integer and fractional ratios
of both. But mathematically there really is no difference of any
significance.
In the context of ADCs, or of sampled data systems in general (outside audio), these terms get slightly different meanings.
In the specific context of consumer digital audio replay
oversampling and upsampling are utterly identical: increasing
the sample rate of a given digital audio stream, by inserting
and/or substituting samples, followed by digital-domain
low-pass filtering (reconstruction filtering, anti-imaging filtering)
at half the original sample frequency.
While the terms are not formally defined, there is a slight
ad-hoc difference in that 'oversampling' is only ever used
when the new sample rate is an integer multiple of the original
one, while 'up' can denote both integer and fractional ratios
of both. But mathematically there really is no difference of any
significance.
In the context of ADCs, or of sampled data systems in general (outside audio), these terms get slightly different meanings.
Re CD read errors.... anatech posted a very thorough explanation of these in some other thread. Perhaps someone has the time to find it.
dave
dave
Seems you knew all along - you were teasing 😉
Actually I upsample rather than oversample just because it is convenient in a two box solution. I use an Ultramatch to retime and upsample to 88.2/24 and then the Ultracurve (with it's better DAC) to do a simple DA conversion (which may well oversample).
I have nothing against oversampling converters - apologies if I implied that I had - I just find the two box solution (Behringer) extremely usable and musical. I believe Lampizator uses this method too - in fact I copied his instructions to get the direct DAC output liberated from the Ultracurve (apart from the tube buffer - I feed my AK4393 DAC outputs straight into a high impedance Bugle-Boy ECC88 tube grid).
Maybe as I wish CDs were actually 96/24 I have a slight bias to getting regular CDs closer to the 'ideal' before the DAC too - so a little personal bias there 🙂
You probably ought to be more concerned about the modern state of mastering of CDs - seriously - check out the waveforms that you are buying - schoolboy errors of level abuse make many CDs lo-fi on DACs with poor overload characteristics! These errors can make the DA process mostly irrelevant..
I'm still amazed a good LP sounds better than a standard CD player - wiggling a diamond with a plastic groove is so lo-tech, but still so good.
Sorry just noticed this
Context is irrelevant, they are different.
1) Upsampling is a digital increase in sampling rate, digital -> digital. You can upsample a music file to another music file. The product of upsampling is digital.
2) Oversampling is running a DAC faster - digital -> analog, thus using an analog filter to determine the intermediate sample point levels. The product of oversampling is analog.
I.e. the difference is between a digital process using digital filtering (assuming a non-oversampling DAC is used) vs a conversion process with analog filtering. I prefer to stay in the digital domain until I have a high sample rate signal to convert: this is my personal preference.
I think what you are saying is that they should sound pretty much the same, and so they may;- but then so should lots of things, and like I said above - my solution pretty much restricts me to upsample first!
Context is irrelevant, they are different.
1) Upsampling is a digital increase in sampling rate, digital -> digital. You can upsample a music file to another music file. The product of upsampling is digital.
2) Oversampling is running a DAC faster - digital -> analog, thus using an analog filter to determine the intermediate sample point levels. The product of oversampling is analog.
I.e. the difference is between a digital process using digital filtering (assuming a non-oversampling DAC is used) vs a conversion process with analog filtering. I prefer to stay in the digital domain until I have a high sample rate signal to convert: this is my personal preference.
I think what you are saying is that they should sound pretty much the same, and so they may;- but then so should lots of things, and like I said above - my solution pretty much restricts me to upsample first!
And what about 44.1Khz vs 48Khz? Now that the CD is dying, can we just do away with the nasty old 44.1 format? Since most production is done at 96 or 192Khz anyway, why not just release in a minimum of 48Khz? Sure would be easier for the common man and his computer playback.
Was 44.1Khz ever used for anything other than CD? And if you download and insist on burning a CD from you 48Khz file, most burners will convert it. Just wishing.
Was 44.1Khz ever used for anything other than CD? And if you download and insist on burning a CD from you 48Khz file, most burners will convert it. Just wishing.
Yamaha was using 16/44 for digital pianos. I'm sure there was a lot of 16/44 being used years ago. I'm not sure what it's used for anymore.
I think 24/96 or 24/88.2 should be the minimum sample rate for anything. It would be convenenient to get rid of one set of sample rates. Either 44.1/88.2/176.4 or 48/96/192 should go. It would be easier for conversion and clocking for DACs would be easier.
We'll be stuck with 44.1 for a long time yet, there is so much out there in that rate.
48Khz/16b bits is just fine for most audio. Think of all those ipods and other mp3 players out there. They don't need better. Nor does my wife with her iTunes or me with Pandora.
I can see a nice "consumer" format at 48/16. Then give us snobs the chance to buy 96/24 lossless if we want it. Know what I mean?
Kinda like cheap, light vinyl for the masses and heavy vinyl & D2D for the audionuts.
48Khz/16b bits is just fine for most audio. Think of all those ipods and other mp3 players out there. They don't need better. Nor does my wife with her iTunes or me with Pandora.
I can see a nice "consumer" format at 48/16. Then give us snobs the chance to buy 96/24 lossless if we want it. Know what I mean?
Kinda like cheap, light vinyl for the masses and heavy vinyl & D2D for the audionuts.
Cool😎 Now you've explained it, it makes much more sense. Notice though that your usage of 'oversampling' doesn't agree with Wikipedia's - their definition most certainly does not include conversion into analog. Their version is pretty much the way the word is actually used in the business, in that oversampling is about sample rates only, not conversion. In comparison, yours is somewhat idiosyncratic, but has its own internal logic once clarified😀
Forget Digital Tunes; Analog Music on the Upswing
Lucas Mearian, Computerworld
September 24, 2010
Seventy-two years ago last week, the 33-1/3 long-playing vinyl record was invented. And while most music fans have moved on to streaming Bluetooth audio, MP3s and other digital music formats, LP sales are higher today than at any time in recent history.
According to Nielsen Entertainment, vinyl record sales have been booming over the past four years. In 2009, 2.5 million albums were sold in the U.S., up from 1.88 million in 2008.
In other words, digital music dominates, but analog isn't dead yet.
Slideshow: How to Make New Stuff From Your Piles of Obsolete Tech
The 50 Greatest Gadgets of the Past 50 Years
"As surprising as it may sound, LP sales are up again this year, and 2009 had the highest number of LP sales ever since we started tracking them," said David Bakula, senior vice president of analytics at Nielsen Entertainment.
From 2006 to 2007, vinyl record sales rose 14%, from 858,000 to 990,000.
The same can't be said for CDs, sales of which have continued on a downward spiral that began after a peak in 2001. In the first half of this year, CD album sales were down about 18% to 110.3 million units from 134.6 million units during that same time last year, according to Nielsen SoundScan.
During that same period, vinyl albums represented just 1.2% of all physical album sales, but that's up significantly from last year when they represented only two-thirds of a percentage point between January and June, Bakula said.
And, while CDs still make up the lion's share physical album sales, their decline seems likely to continue. Earlier this month, at an event announcing Version 10 of iTunes, Apple CEO Steve Jobs noted that Apple (AAPL) had removed the image of a CD from the app's icon. It replaced the CD image with a music note inside of a circle to indicate, as Jobs put it, the future of music: Apple's new Ping social networking music service.
Like Twitter and Facebook , iTunes' Ping lets people follow online friends as well as musical artists by building top-10 lists.
Overall, record company revenues fell by 7.2% to $17 billion in 2009. At the same time, sales of digital music formats -- such as MP3s -- rose by 9.2% to $4.3 billion, which is 10 times what they were in 2004, according to the International Federation of the Phonographic Industry (IFPI). Physical album sales -- made up of CDs, tapes and vinyl albums -- fell by 12.7% globally.
Digital music sales now account for 25.3% of all trade revenues to record companies. In the U.S., digital sales account for nearly half -- 43% -- of the recorded music market, according to the IFPI.
So why, in the midst of a continuing boom in digital music sales, are vinyl record sales growing? Older audiophiles, who've long maintained that vinyl albums more accurately reproduce an artist's music, make up a large portion of the buyers shelling out money for LPs, Bakula said.
In addition, a younger generation of music fans is also buying vinyl albums because of the medium's historical significance and because they appreciate the album cover artwork and the extensive liner notes available with LPs.
Record companies are also making it easier for younger consumers to listen to their artists even when mobile. For example, many new vinyl albums come with digital download cards that have a code that customers can redeem online to get the digital version of a record at no additional cost, Bakula said.
"The trend sure does seem sustainable," Bakula said. "And the record industry is really doing a lot of cool things to not only make the format come alive but to make it more exciting for consumers."
Forget Digital Tunes; Analog Music on the Upswing
Lucas Mearian, Computerworld
September 24, 2010
Seventy-two years ago last week, the 33-1/3 long-playing vinyl record was invented. And while most music fans have moved on to streaming Bluetooth audio, MP3s and other digital music formats, LP sales are higher today than at any time in recent history.
According to Nielsen Entertainment, vinyl record sales have been booming over the past four years. In 2009, 2.5 million albums were sold in the U.S., up from 1.88 million in 2008.
In other words, digital music dominates, but analog isn't dead yet.
Slideshow: How to Make New Stuff From Your Piles of Obsolete Tech
The 50 Greatest Gadgets of the Past 50 Years
"As surprising as it may sound, LP sales are up again this year, and 2009 had the highest number of LP sales ever since we started tracking them," said David Bakula, senior vice president of analytics at Nielsen Entertainment.
From 2006 to 2007, vinyl record sales rose 14%, from 858,000 to 990,000.
The same can't be said for CDs, sales of which have continued on a downward spiral that began after a peak in 2001. In the first half of this year, CD album sales were down about 18% to 110.3 million units from 134.6 million units during that same time last year, according to Nielsen SoundScan.
During that same period, vinyl albums represented just 1.2% of all physical album sales, but that's up significantly from last year when they represented only two-thirds of a percentage point between January and June, Bakula said.
And, while CDs still make up the lion's share physical album sales, their decline seems likely to continue. Earlier this month, at an event announcing Version 10 of iTunes, Apple CEO Steve Jobs noted that Apple (AAPL) had removed the image of a CD from the app's icon. It replaced the CD image with a music note inside of a circle to indicate, as Jobs put it, the future of music: Apple's new Ping social networking music service.
Like Twitter and Facebook , iTunes' Ping lets people follow online friends as well as musical artists by building top-10 lists.
Overall, record company revenues fell by 7.2% to $17 billion in 2009. At the same time, sales of digital music formats -- such as MP3s -- rose by 9.2% to $4.3 billion, which is 10 times what they were in 2004, according to the International Federation of the Phonographic Industry (IFPI). Physical album sales -- made up of CDs, tapes and vinyl albums -- fell by 12.7% globally.
Digital music sales now account for 25.3% of all trade revenues to record companies. In the U.S., digital sales account for nearly half -- 43% -- of the recorded music market, according to the IFPI.
So why, in the midst of a continuing boom in digital music sales, are vinyl record sales growing? Older audiophiles, who've long maintained that vinyl albums more accurately reproduce an artist's music, make up a large portion of the buyers shelling out money for LPs, Bakula said.
In addition, a younger generation of music fans is also buying vinyl albums because of the medium's historical significance and because they appreciate the album cover artwork and the extensive liner notes available with LPs.
Record companies are also making it easier for younger consumers to listen to their artists even when mobile. For example, many new vinyl albums come with digital download cards that have a code that customers can redeem online to get the digital version of a record at no additional cost, Bakula said.
"The trend sure does seem sustainable," Bakula said. "And the record industry is really doing a lot of cool things to not only make the format come alive but to make it more exciting for consumers."
Forget Digital Tunes; Analog Music on the Upswing
Of course it has nothing to do with the fact that Audiophiles are fed up with the "Loudness Brush" being used on almost every new mainstream CD release ?
Perhaps it is a protest against heavy handed mastering used these days ?
These new LPs that people are buying appear to be in the main sourced from earlier generation tapes in the record company vaults.
SandyK
Perhaps it is a protest against heavy handed mastering used these days ?
These new LPs that people are buying appear to be in the main sourced from earlier generation tapes in the record company vaults.
SandyK
Pardon me, but this is entirely wrong.
I wonder how you got that idea.
See me as a collector of such things.
Lao Zi put it somewhat more eloquently than that: 'The one who knows does not speak. Who speaks, does not know'.
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