Planning out my 1st spkr build and have questions on veneering the cabinets. I've done a little bit of veneering in the past, mostly simple flat surfaces. My question is how to get a nice edge? I see a lot of square cabinets and there is no perceptible seam at the edges of the cabinets. It seems like a contiguous run of veneer!
How is this done? Is there a trick? The bend is too sharp to be able to bend the veneer safely without cracking. Are these simply precise butt-joints in the veneer?
Thx,
Rob
How is this done? Is there a trick? The bend is too sharp to be able to bend the veneer safely without cracking. Are these simply precise butt-joints in the veneer?
Thx,
Rob
I think the trick involves laying the veneer a few mils past the edge of the box, then sand the face perpendicular to the veneered side to make the edge perfect.
Here you go... these guys talk about it a little:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1151309
Here you go... these guys talk about it a little:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1151309
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My $.02...
I've never been able to get as good of an edge with a laminate trimmer as I have using a VERY sharp exacto blade and a backing board to trim against. Besides, a lot can go wrong at 20,000 rpm and the damage is hard to repair.
There is always a perceptible difference in the bearing and cutter diameter, and if you veneer all six sides of the enclosure you’ll be routing across the surface grain of the veneer. In addition, if you don’t have a perfectly flat glue application underneath the router then the veneer will be proud of the guide surface and you’ll rout it off.
Make a few practice pieces first…lay down the veneer with ~1/2” to 2” of overhang. Use an MDF backer board on the back side of the cut to reduce tearout. Tilting the MDF so it pushes the overhang down seems to help. Using a very sharp exacto blade (utility knifes tend to have a very wide blade pushing the grain around) score the veneer several times with the blade at a slight angle.
The moment the blade gets dull change it..
The moment the backer board starts to get a bunch of grooves in it you would be cutting through…change it.
I usually go through 2 blade for a bookshelf speaker and a backer board every pair or so.
Your mileage may vary.
Scott
I've never been able to get as good of an edge with a laminate trimmer as I have using a VERY sharp exacto blade and a backing board to trim against. Besides, a lot can go wrong at 20,000 rpm and the damage is hard to repair.
There is always a perceptible difference in the bearing and cutter diameter, and if you veneer all six sides of the enclosure you’ll be routing across the surface grain of the veneer. In addition, if you don’t have a perfectly flat glue application underneath the router then the veneer will be proud of the guide surface and you’ll rout it off.
Make a few practice pieces first…lay down the veneer with ~1/2” to 2” of overhang. Use an MDF backer board on the back side of the cut to reduce tearout. Tilting the MDF so it pushes the overhang down seems to help. Using a very sharp exacto blade (utility knifes tend to have a very wide blade pushing the grain around) score the veneer several times with the blade at a slight angle.
The moment the blade gets dull change it..
The moment the backer board starts to get a bunch of grooves in it you would be cutting through…change it.
I usually go through 2 blade for a bookshelf speaker and a backer board every pair or so.
Your mileage may vary.
Scott
Presumably you've noticed that the paper (if using paper backed) is similar color to the wood such that you don't notice it too much after trimming and finishing.
As for what to trim with, I use the tool made for the job, a veneer saw. Not as manly as a router, but if you put the veneer you wish to trim face down on a piece of scrap wood to provide support, it works as advertised. After a while they can become dull of course, so you can flip the blade or get another one, they're cheap.
As for what to trim with, I use the tool made for the job, a veneer saw. Not as manly as a router, but if you put the veneer you wish to trim face down on a piece of scrap wood to provide support, it works as advertised. After a while they can become dull of course, so you can flip the blade or get another one, they're cheap.
I use the iron-on glue method, as it gives much more latitude for grain matching / alignment (particularly in a continuous perimeter wrap), and applying in the order of front/back/ sides / top and bottom.
After laying out the grain pattern markers and numbering pieces, cut them slightly oversize - depending on the veneer's figuring anywhere from 1/8" to 1/4" long in the direction of the grain matching.
A thorough ironing at the edges (and driver /terminal port cut-outs) should leave minor scorch lines which can be helpful as tell-tales, and will easily sand out later. Using a hard sanding block and self adhesive 120-150G paper, sand through the veneer (starting with the long grain direction) at a 45` angle until you're almost through both the wood and paper, then trim off the waste with either a utility knife or 2" chisel/ plane blade, held flat against the panel opposing the applied veneer. (I'm not assuming that all edges are 90`, this method can easily wrapping around larger radii edges and even a 45` chamfer )
For cross grain trims, I re-apply the iron, slowly folding the veneer over the cabinet edge/ then follow up with the sanding block, stroking only in the direction of the trim waste, again starting at 45`, then progressing 'til the block is flat on the waste side.
Once all surfaces are veneered, follow up with careful stroke sanding of at least 150 - 180G, and proceed to the application of finishing material(s) of choice - color and top coat etc.
After laying out the grain pattern markers and numbering pieces, cut them slightly oversize - depending on the veneer's figuring anywhere from 1/8" to 1/4" long in the direction of the grain matching.
A thorough ironing at the edges (and driver /terminal port cut-outs) should leave minor scorch lines which can be helpful as tell-tales, and will easily sand out later. Using a hard sanding block and self adhesive 120-150G paper, sand through the veneer (starting with the long grain direction) at a 45` angle until you're almost through both the wood and paper, then trim off the waste with either a utility knife or 2" chisel/ plane blade, held flat against the panel opposing the applied veneer. (I'm not assuming that all edges are 90`, this method can easily wrapping around larger radii edges and even a 45` chamfer )
For cross grain trims, I re-apply the iron, slowly folding the veneer over the cabinet edge/ then follow up with the sanding block, stroking only in the direction of the trim waste, again starting at 45`, then progressing 'til the block is flat on the waste side.
Once all surfaces are veneered, follow up with careful stroke sanding of at least 150 - 180G, and proceed to the application of finishing material(s) of choice - color and top coat etc.
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An iron can be used to convince the veneer to wrap around the corners so there is no joint period. If you have the correct size of veneer this method gives you one joint to fool around with. I usually put that at the back.
For trimming I use a sharp block plane. A router will work for a rough in but as has been stated the outer diameter of the bearing is larger than the cutter and always leaves about 30 thou of edge you don't want. THis I trim off with a block plane.
If you donna have a block plane wrap some medium grit sand paper over a wood block and sand it flush. That works in a pinch.
I have been a Cabinet maker for a great many years. THere are many more ways and some wizz bang guys on this forum who have equally good ideas.
Mark
For trimming I use a sharp block plane. A router will work for a rough in but as has been stated the outer diameter of the bearing is larger than the cutter and always leaves about 30 thou of edge you don't want. THis I trim off with a block plane.
If you donna have a block plane wrap some medium grit sand paper over a wood block and sand it flush. That works in a pinch.
I have been a Cabinet maker for a great many years. THere are many more ways and some wizz bang guys on this forum who have equally good ideas.
Mark
Wow, lots of good ideas .. thanks all. I need to digest this. I have some veneer pieces I will practice with first. I never thought of using an iron.
The veneer I have has no backing or glue yet ... just wood.
I may need to find a good woodworking forum,
Cheers,
Rob
The veneer I have has no backing or glue yet ... just wood.
I may need to find a good woodworking forum,
Cheers,
Rob
Hi,
sometime the veneer is hardwood, so bending is not an option and sanding takes some time.
I often use a japanese Kataba saw to cut the veneer right on the edge. These saws are made to not sratch the parallel surface when cutting on the edge.
Japansäge ? Wikipedia
Best regards
Josch
sometime the veneer is hardwood, so bending is not an option and sanding takes some time.
I often use a japanese Kataba saw to cut the veneer right on the edge. These saws are made to not sratch the parallel surface when cutting on the edge.
Japansäge ? Wikipedia
Best regards
Josch
Then definitely stay away from the environmentally friendly water based contact cement (if you were even considering it) since the water will make the thin wood expand on the wet side, but not the other making it curl like crazy (at least for cherry), and if after much cussing and you do get it down the wood contracts as it dries, leaving nice big cracks to fill. 😡
I wouldn't do water based contact cement with raw veneer, but I have successfully used water based wood glue and the iron on method. Again, edges have to be trimmed using a straight razor...as I never got the veneer flat enought to use a flush trim bit and router.
The iron on method works because the wood is allowed to dry not stuck to another surface. It can move (and will move and wrinkle) and then be pressed flat to your substrate in the ironing process. Try to put the glue on as evenly as possible..any bubbles or bumps have a chance of telegraphing through the veneer after finish is applied...
Scott
The standards of some production techniques are IMO not worth the work for us 'artisans'. I personally find no aesthetic advantage to exactly grain-match adjacent surfaces and hide veneer edges. To me, that says 'not hand-made'! But if you really want that... Production invisible edges on end-grain are most likely pre-veneered and then the veneered panel mitered using big computer controlled routers. To reproduce that without expensive machinery, you could miter your panel ends, then lay the veneer with the panel ends very nearly but not quite touching, then hand trim to also miter the veneer. Of course, you still have to get the joints perfect on glue-up but biscuits in the mating surfaces or custom alignment blocks can help with that. Heat will allow you to bend most any species parallel to the grain, especially with a tiny bit of water to drive steam into the veneer. All I can say is establish your methods by testing before you 'go for it'! ...and of course, good luck!
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