I don't believe cables make a difference, any input?

[doug20]

If I can hear a difference but you can't measure it, then some here want to convince me that the difference does not exist.

You either understand audio science or you can ignore the data that measurements and controlled listening tests produce.


Its 100% your choice and your money.

 

[doug20]

Depends on what you're after. If you like listening to music then you need to focus on acoustics. If you like to build things then why not spend your time building amps or knitting socks.

+1, does anyone really think people building amps are actually doing something an engineer can not do already?

Also, I think DIY amp building was cheaper. Kind of like DIY speaker building. I didnt know it was always expensive.

 

[olblueyez]

And the winner is,,!!!!!

If I can hear a difference but you can't measure it, then some here want to convince me that the difference does not exist. I must disagree.
Yes hearing is subjective, not everyone will hear things the same and there is much learning that goes on in listening, most people are not trained or practiced at listening. But this does not mean that different cables are not different sonically even if they measure the same. How long has this science been around? 100-200 years? You are trying to tell me that millions of years worth of evolution in hearing is trumped by this new human science? That makes no sense. I am a scientist, and like most I understand how little we know and how much is left to understand.
FYI
In my system I use no stranded cable. I never like how it sounds. I only use solid copper twisted pairs. That includes internal wiring, power cords, speaker wire and interconnects.

And there you have it people. If your confused (you know who you are) then his way of doing things is worth looking into. I agree 100%. 😉

 

[doug20]

And there you have it people. If your confused (you know who you are) then his way of doing things is worth looking into. I agree 100%. 😉

Im not sure, he says he is a scientist but he does not control his listening tests so IMO he isnt a good scientist.

If he is truely a scientist them by all means publish some papers on this topic and see how far that subjective conclusion goes 😉

Thanks but no thanks, Guys like Toole, Geddes, Linkwitz, etc already give us enough evidence.

 

[jan.didden]

[snip] How long has this science been around? 100-200 years? You are trying to tell me that millions of years worth of evolution in hearing is trumped by this new human science? That makes no sense. I am a scientist, and like most I understand how little we know and how much is left to understand. [snip].

Exactly! How long have cars been around? How can we accept that wheels trump millions of years of develepment of biped motion 🙄

And he calls himself a scientist, jeez...

jd

 

[olblueyez]

Im not sure, he says he is a scientist but he does not control his listening tests so IMO he isnt a good scientist.

If he is truely a scientist them by all means publish some papers on this topic and see how far that subjective conclusion goes 😉

Thanks but no thanks, Guys like Toole, Geddes, Linkwitz, etc already give us enough evidence.

I am not sure I understand your listening but when I do my listening there is nothing controlled about it. Its for relaxation and enjoyment.

😱 = Bad listening
= Good listening

 

[Jakob2]

@ doug20,

as you have quoted my posts- could you tell me in which part i have stated that an audible difference is unmeasureable?

I probably spoke to the "minority" of engineers that produce 97% of all recordings.



What exactly did they say about "cable sound"?

See for example:

"The Mastering Lab: For a new mastering console, Doug Sax did careful listening tests of various interconnect wires, but could not find anything satisfactory. James Boyk recommended a wire; Sax auditioned it & adopted it. Hundreds or thousands of albums, including dozens which have gone gold or platinum, have passed through this wire."

James Boyk, Audio consulting for, source:
James Boyk Curriculum Vitae

or Jack Renner in:
Stereophile: Jack Renner of Telarc: Direct from Cleveland!

Wishes

 

[markus76]

I am not sure I understand your listening but when I do my listening there is nothing controlled about it. Its for relaxation and enjoyment.

😱 = Bad listening
= Good listening

We were talking about controlled listening tests to objectively evaluate if there's an audible error or not. Has nothing to do with listening in general.

 

[markus76]

The Mastering Lab: For a new mastering console, Doug Sax did careful listening tests of various interconnect wires, but could not find anything satisfactory.

Because all cables sounded the same? How did his listening test setup look like? What was he listening for? "Good sound" or "no error"?

 

[markus76]

And there you have it people.

Yes, there we have another one with claims he has no objective proof for.

 

[doug20]

I am not sure I understand your listening but when I do my listening there is nothing controlled about it. Its for relaxation and enjoyment.

😱 = Bad listening
= Good listening

That is awesome. What is more incredible is that so do the rest of us. 😉

But that has ZERO to do with posting in a thread like this and why be in any audio science discussion if its just about enjoyment with you. Anyone posting should be wanting to learn something about the science behind audio.

Its pointless to post otherwise!! Controlled listening is needed to make properly comparisons and conclusions. Without it people are just foolish audiophiles.

There are many forums for people to post expressing their subjective joy without knowing how to measure. This isnt one of them 😉

 

[tinitus]

There are many forums for people to post expressing their subjective joy without knowing how to measure. This isnt one of them 😉

Really 😕

Well, members are free to post , within forum rules ofcourse

But noise and noise and continious noise, and nothing much else than posting noise, that doesnt do any good 😉

 

[rdf]

Was that an answer to my question?

To answer yours: Monster Cable is everywhere because retail likes it. Go to J&R in NY - Monster is all you can buy.

As to "our" tests: They show that "your" claims are irrational. Sun came up the last few days, will come up tomorrow, etc. etc.

Now would you be so kind to answer my question. Shouting "straw man" in each and every post doesn't make it one.

Sorry, I see you're stuck everywhere. You wrote:

Just to make sure I understand you correctly: You want me to propose a measurement technique to measure something that is inaudible for most people and inaudible in DBTs even for those people that claim to hear "it"?

The Monster Cable comment addressed the first half, which suggested this isn't a common perspective. Many believe they hear the effects. So either the first half of your statement is factually incorrect or you're begging the question.
The 'tests' comment addressed the second half. Here you're question begging is blatant. Presumably we're discussing scientific validity here. They're weaknesses have been discussed in detail, waving your hand like it hasn't happened is weak.

Simply ignoring every criticism of your position, request for input and recommendation for process doesn't help demonstrate you have sp of the topic. I recommend a different tact than simple logical fallacies.

 

[rdf]

Nope, there is ZERO chance in audible effects being unmeasureable.

Once again, how is this so hard to believe. I know many would like to "believe" what they hear wouldnt show up in a measurement being its the only way to justify their experience but measurements FAR exceed what anyone can hear.

To think that measurements are so detailed and show many aspects of the in room response that the ear can not pick but then turn around and say an audible effect is not measureable is a foolish thought and its the crux of the 1430 pages. Its pointless to have an intelligent audio discussion with anyone that thinks measurements are still in the dark ages.

You really don't appear to understand. The 'standard' of room measurements, which are very gross and high level in this context, makes it clear. Without resorting to 'all caps': the frequency response variations caused by speaker cables for example are easy to measure. Examples have been measured and/or simulated and posted here. Arguing from the perspective that measurable differences don't exist suggests you haven't read or understood the thread.

 

[markus76]

Sorry, I see you're stuck everywhere. You wrote:



The Monster Cable comment addressed the first half, which suggested this isn't a common perspective. Many believe they hear the effects. So either the first half of your statement is factually incorrect or you're begging the question.
The 'tests' comment addressed the second half. Here you're question begging is blatant. Presumably we're discussing scientific validity here. They're weaknesses have been discussed in detail, waving your hand like it hasn't happened is weak.

Simply ignoring every criticism of your position, request for input and recommendation for process doesn't help demonstrate you have sp of the topic. I recommend a different tact than simple logical fallacies.

First we would need to have some objective proof of "cable sound". THERE IS NONE. So how to start with a scientific examination when there's nothing to start with? How to autopsy a leprechaun if none exists?

 

[Panicos K]

Depends on what you're after. If you like listening to music then you need to focus on acoustics. If you like to build things then why not spend your time building amps or knitting socks.

An no matter how hard they try,the best they will ever achieve is to build an amp that at its best will be as good as a cheap receiver?Great.
What is your opinion then on high-end manufacturers like ARC,PASS etc?Are their amps as good as a cheap receiver,maybe even worse?

 

[rdf]

First we would need to have some objective proof of "cable sound". THERE IS NONE. So how to start with a scientific examination when there's nothing to start with? How to autopsy a leprechaun if none exists?

Begging the question in combination with a straw man isn't an improvement. If you missed the last dozen times I mentioned, I posted speaker cable effect measurements. Cables make measurable differences, the debate for the past 14+K posts has centred on audibility. Show me the 'leprechaun' measurements that give your analogy merit or quit running away.
Let me try to help you again. Consider, say, acupuncture. Millions claim its effects, evidence is/was lacking. The first half is evidence of potential phenomena, the second indicates process. In the case of acupuncture proper medical studies and peer review determine if it works, not basement hobbyists. Your position is degenerating into a tautology, that cable sound merits no investigation in the face of wide-spread testimonial because it's scientifically unproven.

So I gather you have nothing constructive to contribute to how such measurements would be made?

 

[jan.didden]

You really don't appear to understand. The 'standard' of room measurements, which are very gross and high level in this context, makes it clear. Without resorting to 'all caps': the frequency response variations caused by speaker cables for example are easy to measure. Examples have been measured and/or simulated and posted here. Arguing from the perspective that measurable differences don't exist suggests you haven't read or understood the thread.

rfd,

I have the impression you and Doug20 actually agree, namely that genuine audible differences are measureable (if we only know what to measure, of course), so I don't quite get this exchange. Am I misreading something?

For the record, I agree to this too. A genuine audible difference MUST come from an electrical difference of the signal at the speaker connector (unless you subscribe to direct mental exitation straight from the source), and we're pretty good at electrical measurements.

jd

 

[Panicos K]

its okay to be dellusioned. The first step is to actually admit it.

Its cool that you are finally admitting it 😉

Am I?🙂

 

[markus76]

Begging the question in combination with a straw man isn't an improvement. If you missed the last dozen times I mentioned, I posted speaker cable effect measurements. Cables make measurable differences, the debate for the past 14+K posts has centred on audibility. Show me the 'leprechaun' measurements that give your analogy merit or quit running away.
Let me try to help you again. Consider, say, acupuncture. Millions claim its effects, evidence is/was lacking. The first half is evidence of potential phenomena, the second indicates process. In the case of acupuncture proper medical studies and peer review determine if it works, not basement hobbyists. Your position is degenerating into a tautology, that cable sound merits no investigation in the face of wide-spread testimonial because it's scientifically unproven.

So I gather you have nothing constructive to contribute to how such measurements would be made?

I appreciate your readiness to help others but a) I didn't ask for it because b) I don't need help.

Nothing you said changes the fact that there is no objective proof of "cable sound".