Maybe because I don't make unsupported extraordinary claims? When I do, I will not at all resent the call for evidence- that's integral to intellectual honesty.
There's nothing tangible there even for those of us who would accept the possibility. Zero. Zip. Nada. Only the same "evidence" that exists for the sonic efficacy of freezing one's photograph.
Is there really somebody here that can measure a loudspeaker and a room accurately and tell from that measurements how that sounds ?
Hi,
Catch22 warning.
My point exactly.
Audibility simply isn't tangible and therefore a figment of the mind, a belief, a religion. I'd call it a convcition of the moment.
Which brings me back to the much debated point: how do I convince you or anyone else of the fact that what I hear is not necessarily what you hear?
To me a single DBT test still doesn't prove a thing. As a matter of "opinion" I'm pretty sure it takes at least a dozen of DBTs carried out by thousand of people to make it at the very least plausible to some.
Still, worldwide, how large do you estimate the number of audiophiles/ music lovers etc. that have deluded themselves time and time again thinking that cable A sounds different from cable B?
Let's now eliminate the obvious and assume what they were listening to were identical cables as far as L, C and R go?
O.K. so the number is decreasing but I still imagine thousands if not millions of people, don't you?
Let's now narrow it down once more, how many put themselves to the test and actually verified and double checked they just weren't imagining things?
A few hundred thousand left worldwide? Maybe.
Yep, must be mass dillusion.
Science is like the foundation of the house you want to build, if you don't build upon it that foundation serves no purpose.🙂
No offense, just observing. 😉
Kind regards,
Frank
Catch22 warning.
My point exactly.
Audibility simply isn't tangible and therefore a figment of the mind, a belief, a religion. I'd call it a convcition of the moment.
Which brings me back to the much debated point: how do I convince you or anyone else of the fact that what I hear is not necessarily what you hear?
To me a single DBT test still doesn't prove a thing. As a matter of "opinion" I'm pretty sure it takes at least a dozen of DBTs carried out by thousand of people to make it at the very least plausible to some.
Still, worldwide, how large do you estimate the number of audiophiles/ music lovers etc. that have deluded themselves time and time again thinking that cable A sounds different from cable B?
Let's now eliminate the obvious and assume what they were listening to were identical cables as far as L, C and R go?
O.K. so the number is decreasing but I still imagine thousands if not millions of people, don't you?
Let's now narrow it down once more, how many put themselves to the test and actually verified and double checked they just weren't imagining things?
A few hundred thousand left worldwide? Maybe.
Yep, must be mass dillusion.
Science is like the foundation of the house you want to build, if you don't build upon it that foundation serves no purpose.🙂
No offense, just observing. 😉
Kind regards,
Frank
Frank, come to my house, bring your cable and we listen. I have some nice measurement equipment too.
Markus, in 19994, me, Bernd Theis and Malkolm Hawsksford build a room that had sufficient depression of early reflexion, horizontally and vertically. Bernd was working on an "artificial listener" at that time. We wanted to find out how the ear decodes 3 dimensional space. It led to a paper about how to setup speakers in a home environment
published by the AES. I think the setup method i developed solved the problem suffiently well. It is posible to listen at home to the sound that was recorded in the studio or in a life environment.
published by the AES. I think the setup method i developed solved the problem suffiently well. It is posible to listen at home to the sound that was recorded in the studio or in a life environment.
But it does, assuming falsification of the null hypothesis. Just one valid, controlled test. 30+ years of these remarkable claims and it still hasn't happened. Given that track record of zero, coupled with claims that contradict well-established physics and engineering, you have to understand that there's going to be some cynicism...
Hi,
Works both ways, doesn't it?
Cheers, 😉
P.S. Unless we (and I mean anyone) actually do something about it, it's just your word against mine and we'll be forever on the merry go round, won't we?
Works both ways, doesn't it?
Cheers, 😉
P.S. Unless we (and I mean anyone) actually do something about it, it's just your word against mine and we'll be forever on the merry go round, won't we?
which is why we are thankful that Tom has the cahooneys to step up to the plate.
Any more concrete time yet SY?
Any more concrete time yet SY?
Hi,
Do you honestly belief there's any value to be derived from that test?
Cheers, good luck and good night, 😎
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Depressed reflections in the year 19994? Sounds sad 🙂 Would you mind sending me that paper?
Best, Markus
No, not at all. Burden of proof is on the person making the extraordinary claim, as you well know.
No, i whould not mind. What makes me sad is that you present me Olives well known work. All speakers that have a linear on axis frequency response and semi decent radiation pattern sound the same. That is not research. That is advertising in disguise funded by the second biggest manufaturer of home entertainment equipment.
Hello Kareface
Why are you assuming there will be large differences?? They probably will measure differently depending on what you look at but it may not be obvious what the important differences are in the measurements with respect to the audible differences between the speakers. Understanding the relationship between what we hear with what we measure in the key to any meanigful improvement in the current state of affairs.
Earl did a great job by pointing out that the room has an influence of how spacious a speaker will sound and that it's a complex issue. We can all hear soundstage and depth. I know it's an illusion but some speakers do it better than others. Because of the complexity and the interaction with the room it's not that easy to define by using a simple speaker measurement set.
Depends on the measurement. If you mean cables well I worry about speaker and room primarilly. That's where I put my emphasis.
Rob🙂
Nope, not while my finger is on the trigger. One more slip-up is all it takes.
I'm close to tears. What do you do for a living? 🙂
Best, Markus
P.S. You have a PM.
Just a mind experiment. A person finds a way to measure sound quality. Whould he get recognition ? Whould he be able to get a decent income from that ? I think not. Somebody that was much bigger then me, Peter Walker of Quad ones claimed " The perfect speaker will go unnoticed "
It just sounds too natural, too unspectacular.
It just sounds too natural, too unspectacular.
Oh I like that!! So it's all a conspiracy by the Engulf and Devoure, namely Harmon International.
You have got to be kidding
Rob
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