Hello doug20
I build DIY speakers as a hobby so I have a CLIO rig that I use for that. Just for curiosity I decided to plug an interconect into the measurement loop. From what I saw with that measurement it will be last time I worry about interconnects. Ruler flat frequency response and less that 1 degree of phase change at 20Khz. Compared to speaker and room issues it is just completely the wrong direction to go in if you want to make real improvements in your stereo system. If I posted this before sorry for the repetition.
Rob🙂
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I hope you are hanging your whole theory on this type of opinion?
What was the date of the last great audio science discovery. Has anything really been discovered in the last 30 years?
I would say science has caught up and surpass anything anyone can do with their ears. How we put all the different available measurements together is the hard part and I will agree that are brains are incredible for summation. The probelm is that our brains taking data from memory, from sight as much as it does from hearing.....Once again guess what that causes?
There isnt a sound wave in the realm of audio that can not be measured.
No, it's mild low frequency emphasis.
Distance from a source is type of change that's been ingrained into our mental DSP through eons of evolutionary adaptation. Not guaranteed of cable changes, or, for example, digital processing.
Ok, but is it stable at all times
Factors like temperature, humidity etc plays a role too, doesnt it ?
And other variable factors like the number of persons in the room, etc
The changes I hear when having visitors are quite big, and not to the better
Almost everything I like in music is gone when visitors are present
Factors like temperature, humidity etc plays a role too, doesnt it ?
And other variable factors like the number of persons in the room, etc
The changes I hear when having visitors are quite big, and not to the better
Almost everything I like in music is gone when visitors are present
That is exactly what I have done too...
I have swapped speaker wire, interconnects, etc....I have run measurements, looked at CSDs and so on to notice one constant them. A small cap has 1000 times more effects on the measurements then any cable ever would.
Its interesting that people will post subjective "Night and Day" audible differences but in truth they are not there at all as proven by the measurements. "Night and Day" does mean that even the FR plot has to differ but they never do.
Moving the mic 3" has a bigger effect on sound then any cable 😉
I have always believed that speakers and room should dominate all discussions about improving SQ. I use to think just speakers but after reading a couple of books on acoustics I think the room is a HUGE source of problems.
Doesn't the fact that we're not much closer to replicating a convincing facsimile of an acoustic event than we were generations ago shake your conviction in the direction of that progress?
Perfect example of why "warmth" should be banned from audio reviews 😀
Everyone has their own colorful descriptions of what "warmth" is...Tube fans think "Warm" sound of the tube is distortion related.
Others think "Warm" is the altering of the speaker speaker, like you posted bumping the lower mid range up 3dB (see B&W plots for this, they are famous for it).
I don't follow, its impossible to replicate the acoustic event period. Science already knows this, audiophiles use it as an excuse or they somehow convince themselves there setup transformed them back to the live event...usually with their eyes closed, go figure 🙄
I already posted its all about the room...you want the replication, go back to the original room and play the recording (assuming the record is good) of the event, make sure you have the same number of people, same number of drinks, etc.
Name something you hear that can not be measured! Try not to name subjective conclusions from your brain but name precise sounds that can not be measured.
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Once you get that low the wavelengths are longer then the distance between your ears. It's one of the reasons why diffuse bass fields lack locality. Obviously there's some capacity for localized perception below 500hz, but a lot of that has to do with the size & shape of the room and the position of the drivers. Not to mention once you get to around 250hz bass radiates pretty evenly in all directions from the source. In a well configured sound room you shouldn't get many early reflections and the bass below 500hz should be pretty uniform, so you're ability to perceive it's point of origin is almost non-existent, which is where I assume we're running the tests. If you're talking about day to day you generally aren't in an environment that allows for such a degree of diffusion.
I saved a bunch of great papers of the subject but I have literally thousands of bookmarks so you'll have to give me a sec. I did dig up an image I saved which helps visualize an aspect of what I'm saying.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
The problem with creating a convincing facsimile seems to have zero to do with wires. It DOES seem to do with stuff that we can demonstrably hear ("stereo" being probably the greatest culprit).
Speaking of measurements, how about the acoustic output of your loudspeaker cabinets? Any results there?
I don't know why you're saying no considering I didn't mention the frequency range it accentuated. Unless you're going to claim that "accentuate" and "emphasis" have different meaning, considering the definitions use one another to describe each other I hope this isn't the case. Are you simply being argumentative? Because there was no point in your reply.
Which has nothing to do with measured results.
Who you asking?
I do not care about that alone. I measure my drivers and cabinet has one entity.
No, because you can't recreate the room it was produced in and you can't recreate the disputation pattern of the object producing the sound. Think of the room as the ultimate filter, no matter how accurately you can record something, it's still going to be run through the most influential part of your sound system, the acoustics of the space your speakers exist in. There isn't a perfect room for everything because everything wasn't produced in the same space. Out limitation isn't understanding, but the limits of the physical world. Things will slowly progress as we find new ways of tricking the mind into thinking we're actually in a concert hall, but this has less to do with acoustics and more to do with neuroscience.
I am asking Kareface, because he believes in measurements but his cabinets look a bit 'shaky' compared to many other designs (more expensive of course).
How you figure that?? Are we talking 2 channel only?? Even with 2 channel you can get a sense of space. Look the whole thing is a sham. Stereo's not real. When you listen to a guy singing do you have a left and a right of him? Multichannel has a much better chance of getting it right. At least there you can but a singer in mono as a point source where they belong. We can never replicate the real thing but we can fool ourselves and depending on how well it's done it can sound damn good. My stereo and HT system beat the hell out of what I was listening to 30 years ago.
Rob🙂
Diffuse bass fields are generally an artifact of the recording process. A microphone isn't the same as the ear-brain system. Furthermore, I wouldn't regard a 500 Hz tone as a bass note. If you had made the same statement substituting 50 Hz for 500 Hz, I would go along with it - limited to listening to a stereo system, of course.
John
Hello John
If you are speaking to me I never got around to getting the accerometer. I just do sine sweeps and listen for vibrations and take a look at the impeadence plots to see if there is anything obvious I didn't hear during a sweep test.
Rob🙂
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