Hello,
This is more of an intelectual curiosity but here it goes.
Do you have in mind any modern replacements (BMS, 18Sound, B&C, AES, that sort of "modern") for Altec 515?
I am interested in low fs (around 25Hz) coupled with high sensitivity (over 98db), and this is usually meaning low moving mass.
The only similar speakers I can think of are Supravox 285 and 400.
Looking for your suggestions!
edit: another hint is that if I'd use this I'd do it in a closed or vented box, not a horn which is the usual application for an Altec.
Thank you!
This is more of an intelectual curiosity but here it goes.
Do you have in mind any modern replacements (BMS, 18Sound, B&C, AES, that sort of "modern") for Altec 515?
I am interested in low fs (around 25Hz) coupled with high sensitivity (over 98db), and this is usually meaning low moving mass.
The only similar speakers I can think of are Supravox 285 and 400.
Looking for your suggestions!
edit: another hint is that if I'd use this I'd do it in a closed or vented box, not a horn which is the usual application for an Altec.
Thank you!
There are drivers like this.. but are they necessarily more "modern"? Also most are hideously expensive. In addition to most of the Supravox 400 range, there are drivers from GOTO, ALE, AER, etc.. Getting High eff. AND low fs is the problem. Ex.:
Studiobass
Note that even most of these exotic woofers have very low compliance, so they aren't quite the same. Even the more "regular" JBL 2235H (no longer produced) has a low Qm. ..the field coil Supravox 400 with a stronger voltage supply is an exception. Also see:
A515WVL | Great Vintage Loudspeakers
Further - the 515 probably isn't as efficient as 98 db (..prob. more like 97 db). It will likely get its greater db rating from the enclosure - augmented via horn loading or a higher tuning freq. for the bass reflex design.
There is however a "poor man's compromise":
Eminence EMI-1550 15" High Efficiency Sub from Madisound
Get an additional magnet for this thing, positioned (spaced) correctly for added gain - and you should be looking at about 97.5 db.
I should also note that if you increase fs by about 10-14 Hz then your choices will expand quite a bit.
Studiobass
Note that even most of these exotic woofers have very low compliance, so they aren't quite the same. Even the more "regular" JBL 2235H (no longer produced) has a low Qm. ..the field coil Supravox 400 with a stronger voltage supply is an exception. Also see:
A515WVL | Great Vintage Loudspeakers
Further - the 515 probably isn't as efficient as 98 db (..prob. more like 97 db). It will likely get its greater db rating from the enclosure - augmented via horn loading or a higher tuning freq. for the bass reflex design.
There is however a "poor man's compromise":
Eminence EMI-1550 15" High Efficiency Sub from Madisound
Get an additional magnet for this thing, positioned (spaced) correctly for added gain - and you should be looking at about 97.5 db.
I should also note that if you increase fs by about 10-14 Hz then your choices will expand quite a bit.
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Kind of an intellectual response too, look at this contender in pressed steel, maybe not the same.
VOLT Ps15/300
Those AER look nice (they all look nice and w/low Fs), and they are the 4 months well spent, better than the 2 years for the Gurus/Sweden.
VOLT Ps15/300
Those AER look nice (they all look nice and w/low Fs), and they are the 4 months well spent, better than the 2 years for the Gurus/Sweden.
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How about the GPA 515. If you want a 515, why not just get one? 🙂
Great Plains Audio's LF Loudspeakers
Great Plains Audio's LF Loudspeakers
The link is also in his post. 😉
I think it was more a matter of finding a driver that is similar yet better (at least measurably), and if possible: less expensive.
The thing is, no "large" manufacturer wants to produce a driver that requires significant volume to get a decent low-end response. Add to that increased eff.. and well, you are really pushing Hoffman's Iron Law into unreasonable domestic use (..a.k.a "Fridge +" size, and even then for only modest bass extension). Of course the 515 was used in unusual designs (at least by modern standards), but even then most designs were not only large, but still didn't have much bass extension.
Thank you guys for your suggestions.
The Volt and the Eminence drivers linked by Inductor and Scott are indeed new to me, I'll look closer at them. The one from Volt looks great, but that measurement posted there might be misleading, with almost 100g moving mass and 99dB, the woofer might be closer to the typical PA woofers than what I am looking for. The low end rollover is smoother though, which is exactly I am looking for.
Unfortunately, no ALE, GOTO, Kilimanjaro, and not even GPA for me... These are way to expensive to afford them. Not even the Supravox 400. Most probably, if I'll go with the plan to use a woofer similar to the 515 I'd go with Supravox 285GMF which has a relatively decent price.
Exactly yes, that I mean by modern: similar yet maybe better (copper rings, etc 🙄 ), and also mainstream, which would make it cheap.
However, how Scott already put it,
To give another hint of what I'm thinking of:
This woofer would complement a large midrange (AE15TDM, 18Sound12NDA520, this type of highly efficient stuff), and would run in parallel with the midrange starting at about 80Hz.
The enclosures would be sealed, and I need this second high efficiency woofer to have a reasonable flat response down to 50Hz by summing the two responses.
Think of the inclosures of something like this:
The Volt and the Eminence drivers linked by Inductor and Scott are indeed new to me, I'll look closer at them. The one from Volt looks great, but that measurement posted there might be misleading, with almost 100g moving mass and 99dB, the woofer might be closer to the typical PA woofers than what I am looking for. The low end rollover is smoother though, which is exactly I am looking for.
Unfortunately, no ALE, GOTO, Kilimanjaro, and not even GPA for me... These are way to expensive to afford them. Not even the Supravox 400. Most probably, if I'll go with the plan to use a woofer similar to the 515 I'd go with Supravox 285GMF which has a relatively decent price.
Exactly yes, that I mean by modern: similar yet maybe better (copper rings, etc 🙄 ), and also mainstream, which would make it cheap.
However, how Scott already put it,
To give another hint of what I'm thinking of:
This woofer would complement a large midrange (AE15TDM, 18Sound12NDA520, this type of highly efficient stuff), and would run in parallel with the midrange starting at about 80Hz.
The enclosures would be sealed, and I need this second high efficiency woofer to have a reasonable flat response down to 50Hz by summing the two responses.
Think of the inclosures of something like this:
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By the way, look at the T/S of the kilimanjaro series. At 10V in the field-coil you get 99.4dB and have an fs of 24.3 Hz. Why they don't make speakers like this anymore?
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Ooops! Sorry. Must not have seen the link against the pale blue background. 🙁
The Altec drivers were never cheap, still aren't. Sometimes you can pick up used frames for cheap and have them reconed. Still not bargain basement, tho.
It will be interesting to see what you come up with.
Thanks,
I did some WinISD sims and it's just outrageous, the Altec 416C for example trumps over any 15" up to 21" eighteensound LF woofer at 50Hz in terms of relative gain. I know this is not entirely representative but you've got the point. No matter how you put it, the Altecs are 2-3dB more efficient when used in closed boxes.
I did some WinISD sims and it's just outrageous, the Altec 416C for example trumps over any 15" up to 21" eighteensound LF woofer at 50Hz in terms of relative gain. I know this is not entirely representative but you've got the point. No matter how you put it, the Altecs are 2-3dB more efficient when used in closed boxes.
There is always someone trying to break Hoffmans Iron Law.. 😀
There *is* however a way to "bend" it. 😱 Aperiodic with a woofer that is pretty much "unacceptable" by modern standards. The Selenium that Panomaniac uses should work in a smaller volume (..say 4 cubic feet). "Tuning" it to lower it's LF "knee" and also flatten out phase and group delay. Considering room gain and some output from a midbass driver, it might get you closer to what you are looking for.
Yep, at around 2500 EUR a pair these should be taxed like work of art or something..
On the other hand, using a selenium woofer in an aperiodic enclosure doesn't sound too bad. These things are cheap around here, I could pump out the money in the midrange. Any specific one you are thinking of? I remember Panomaniac was using some 18 drivers? They'd be a little too large I guess.
On the other hand, using a selenium woofer in an aperiodic enclosure doesn't sound too bad. These things are cheap around here, I could pump out the money in the midrange. Any specific one you are thinking of? I remember Panomaniac was using some 18 drivers? They'd be a little too large I guess.
They are something of a work of art. 😛 (..and they are still a lot less expensive than some alternatives, most of which don't look nearly as well constructed.)
This is the Selenium:
Parts-Express.com:Selenium 15PW3-SLF 15" Driver | 15" woofer 15 inch woofer midbass driver pro sound sound reinforcement PA
If you are willing to trade some extension for gain you could also use 2 of these in parallel (..about 3 cubic feet each):
Parts-Express.com:Eminence Delta-15B 15" Driver 16 Ohm | delta-15b 16 ohm woofer 15" 16 ohm driver 15" pa speaker 400 watt speaker
(..in fact considering the gain, amplifier dependent, this might net you more extension at the same spl.)
SunRa,
I don't know how you are using your woofer (everybody has a specific application, xover, etc.), maybe it's on the speakers you have on the picture. On the low frequencies there is this other (serious) contender deserving your inspection SELENIUM Subwoofer 15SWS1100
On the bandpass side for frequencies up to 2K this one has a very natural roll-off SELENIUM Woofer 15WS600 . "With exceptionally smooth transition into the vocal range".
Another similar (for comparison) to the 15PW3 line is the SELENIUM Woofer WPU1509 (also aluminum frame) with better dispersion (polar response curves) up to 2KHz and Qts=0,35, Qes=0,35, Qms=14,70.
Interesting specs/references also for the PHL 5010
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If you wanted to pay shipping, I'll send you one of the Selenium 15" drivers. I'd send 2, but one got crushed when I moved from Hawaii. ;(
It's a good woofer at a great price. I does want a "too big" sealed box, but Scott is onto something with his aperiodic idea.
It's a good woofer at a great price. I does want a "too big" sealed box, but Scott is onto something with his aperiodic idea.
Lowering the eff. by about -3db (at 100 Hz) there are these two drivers:
AE Speakers --- Superb Quality, Unforgettable Performance, Definitely.
CIARE ITALIAN SPEAKERS - PRO AUDIO B2B: NDH 15-4 S SUB-WOOFER
AE Speakers --- Superb Quality, Unforgettable Performance, Definitely.
CIARE ITALIAN SPEAKERS - PRO AUDIO B2B: NDH 15-4 S SUB-WOOFER
Hello guys,
Thank you for your replies here, and advices. Unfortunately things (again) made another turn and my system-to-be will have to wait. Even more it's less and less probable that if I'll do it in the near future, I'd have the space to use a 15" woofer. So I'm back to negotiating specifications.
I just wanted to let you know that I appreciated your writings here. And panomaniac, thank you for the offer. I think the Selenium has a good price here, probably the shipping from US and the second hand cost would be more than the local price.
Thank you for your replies here, and advices. Unfortunately things (again) made another turn and my system-to-be will have to wait. Even more it's less and less probable that if I'll do it in the near future, I'd have the space to use a 15" woofer. So I'm back to negotiating specifications.
I just wanted to let you know that I appreciated your writings here. And panomaniac, thank you for the offer. I think the Selenium has a good price here, probably the shipping from US and the second hand cost would be more than the local price.
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