Ah, critofur, if this is the case then you truly have my sympathy, but I fear that the experience of the majority of people is irrelevant. Most people do not experience such discomfort, and you should consider having a hearing test to determine if you are suffering from a medical condition, or at the very least test yourself with a pair of headphones and a tone generator.
Even now I can listen to an old but loved track on a poor reproduction system and still derive some satisfaction. And still be anticipating the next one. Perhaps it's listening to the music instead of listening to the system that makes the difference.
Live music and live musicians still exist. There was a time (about 3 decades) when I seriously wondered if they were facing extinction, but happily this turned out not to be the case. There's no reason not to enjoy music still, it may not be the comforting old CDs, but live music is real music.
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HI all, just thought i'd put my bobs worth in, I found that i was having listening fatigue too and you know what, it was listening to digital rubbish and watching and listening to films on TV or dvd/videos through a surround sound system. Eventually I dug out my Ariston RD80 and hey presto, it was like the doctor had given me a pill. Analogue definately is more pleasant to your brain. Someone previous mentioned distortion, well digital has all sorts of nasties.
I now want better turntable arm and cartridge, but from what I have heard so far, everything sounds so clinical/cold/metalic.
God I feel soooo much better after getting this of my chest.
If any body else wants to comment on this then please do.
Regards - Anthony🙂
I now want better turntable arm and cartridge, but from what I have heard so far, everything sounds so clinical/cold/metalic.
God I feel soooo much better after getting this of my chest.
If any body else wants to comment on this then please do.
Regards - Anthony🙂
This thread is so 'current events' for me. I finally figured out what was causing my listening fatigue. It's my thin-cone fullrange drivers. I like rock; and I like loud. And that, mixed with any thin-coned lightly damped driver is utter failure. Just when I start having fun, I turn it up, and it's mid to upper midrange hades. It isn't the room or the amp or anything else. It's the lack of membrane resonance control.
SO, I am hereby abandoning fullrange methodology and going back to multiway. Back to Scan-speak, Morel, Vifa, Seas, dome tweets etc. and unfortunately, crossovers and low efficiency. Time for thick plastic cones and rubber surrounds that don't hurt my ears. I will gladly trade resolution for smooth high output. BUT, I will stick to OB nonetheless.
SO, I am hereby abandoning fullrange methodology and going back to multiway. Back to Scan-speak, Morel, Vifa, Seas, dome tweets etc. and unfortunately, crossovers and low efficiency. Time for thick plastic cones and rubber surrounds that don't hurt my ears. I will gladly trade resolution for smooth high output. BUT, I will stick to OB nonetheless.
Perhaps Inclinedplane you just need to look at a different application for what you like? I'd stick with a paper cone over plastic and metal, kevlar etc any day.. You go to any live event that is amplified and your hearing paper cones and metal type tweets almost all the time..
Maybe a modern type version of the Altec 19 would suffice for blasting that rock? Don't forget though the more you blast the more your hearing will suffer, just ask Pete Townsend 🙂
Maybe a modern type version of the Altec 19 would suffice for blasting that rock? Don't forget though the more you blast the more your hearing will suffer, just ask Pete Townsend 🙂
Yes those are important considerations. I've always thought live sound was pretty bad: a huge bloated one-note midbass and screechy painful metal-dome compression drivers in horns. But my experiences are by no means a mainstream opinion. No, I most often listen at a healthy but not outrageous volume and I just want cones that don't sound like.....well...you know those plastic trays that you get snacks in, like oreos or hostess cakes? Have you ever scrunched up one of those in your fist - right near your ear? Torture! I'm sick of that. I don't want it anymore. I want to try the Bohlender Graebener tall planar units, but I can find very little information on the actual sound of them.
Yeah I hear ya 🙂 Some of those concerts sounded pretty awesome though.. I'm thinking Pink Floyd and Skynryd were some of the best live sound big venue I ever heard, same with Heart circa 1977.. It's all perspective I guess.. I think most driver manufactures have gone the way of cheap and looks impressive must sound good ideals.. Bling seems to dominate nowadays, and looks take over in many choices .. Anyhow all this audio stuff is so personal as to each room, mood and ears listening it's almost as infinite as the universe lol.. I'll still take some mix of paper for my cones though please 🙂
The thing most people never get is there is a large difference between a PA system, which are often maxed out in capacity in use and therefore sound bad, and the individual components which are typically excellent at the better levels. Having built with hifi and pro drivers, I will likely never return to hifi units.
An Altec 19 is a very good speaker, or an Altec/GPA 604. Plenty of options with pro drivers that will get you the sort of performance that toy hifi speakers will never be able to manage.
My friend Terry's system is all PHL except for the morel tweets and is one of the two best systems I have ever heard, easily bettering in every way the ATC 100 active monitors (15" 3 way) I heard some time ago.
Flares have come a long way, CD's at low levels are exceptional performers (and plenty without Ti domes) and the cones are usually designed with a higher emphasis on cooling, linearity. Have a look at Brandon's measurements to get an idea of the performance of some and check his photobucket (ID: augerpro) for some older one's too.
I couldn't agree more. When I first started using PRO audio stuff, I was impressed by the accuracy, natural tone, and efficiency. Now I have learned that I need to take the best from both worlds to be content. I'll use pro woofers in open baffle and hifi or planar for the mids and highs. The much lower efficiency of the high-fi units will also give me compensation for 'baffle-step' and open baffle losses. Not to be OT, but if I can have my OB bass and midbass, the smooth mids and highs of quality hifi units, and minimal passive crossover components, I'll be thrilled and my listening fatigue will vanish. High hopes, I know, and I've wasted tens of thousands over the years looking for the right kind of sound. I hope I'm finally closing in on it.
Rock & Roll without distortion???
That's like Reggae without huge bass.
Neither genre could exist without it.
😉
That's like Reggae without huge bass.
Neither genre could exist without it.
😉
They can sound as good as anything I have ever heard. Here is a review of the 75" BGs with with dual 12" subs.
SoundStage! Equipment Review - Wisdom Audio Adrenaline Line Source (09/1997)
What if you got the same crappy 70's bookshelf speakers with paper cones and listened to it. Maybe it would bring the feeling back.
If that doeasn't work, then I say to the readers who are under age 50:
"enjoy it while it lasts!".
If that doeasn't work, then I say to the readers who are under age 50:
"enjoy it while it lasts!".
Sure, I do. 🙂
But the combo of hi-fi and rock has always puzzled me. Rock seems so hell bent to be loud, raucous and distorted that listening to it "Hi-Fi" always seemed strange to me. At least until some of the "Unplugged" stuff started coming out.
To me Rock always seemed about being big, loud and powerful, thus almost everything was amplified, often more than once. (Electric guitar into P.A.) So just how much fidelity does one want? If the system sounds great, sure. But accurate - why? We aren't talking about the reproduction of an acoustic jazz band, choir or symphony orchestra here. Nothing that has its own acoustic sound. Rock is almost all electric. It's meant to be overblown and amplified.
But Rock is not my genre, so what I think doesn't carry much weight. Just my 2 cents.
"Rock" is such a vague catchall term it is pretty meaningless.. also it is missing the point if as soon as the native sound of an instrument is not acoustic based, the accurate reproduction of it is suddenly thrown out the window, even if it is not a "natural" sound the artists/producers may have spent considerable effort getting the sound they were after.. and thats the sound I want to hear.
I mainly listen to electronic music now but just firing up TODAY from SIAMESE DREAM by SMASHING Pumpkins is always a fun way to blow the cobwebs off the stereo, amazing layered distorted guitar cleverly built up in layers - which is completely messed up listening on a bad stereo.
A good illustration is this short vid on how the guitar sounds were built up for Nirvana:
YouTube - Drain You w/ Butch Vig
And I bet they weren't listening on party blaster speakers while they mixed it down....
Reading any guitar magazine you'll quickly see how obsessed electric guitarists are with getting exactly the tone they are after (different pickups, valves, FX, etc).
disclaimer: my shiny new home speakers do use PA drivers - "econowave" style.
Exactly my point. I don't care what was done to the sound before the CD is stamped. I just want my transducers to give me WHAT IS THERE on the recording without ringing and screeching. None of the many drivers or systems I've tried over the years do proper service to things like your smashing pumpkins track, or track 4 of Pink Floyd's The Division Bell or some of Sheryl Crow's vocals etc etc etc at anything but gentle volumes. It's the SAME area of frequencies every time. My guess is probably 2khz to 6khz.
But I think I'm butting heads with the very limitations of the technology. That's why I want to try the BG planar units if I can get the money and maybe dabble in heavily-damped cones again. /end whine.
Listening fatigue, hmmm...
For me, it's the circuit.
In a DAC, it's not the DAC chip itself, but the whole layout, the way the chip is implemented.
In a power amp, it's not the transistors or tubes in general, but the way... (same as DAC).
In a speaker it's the crossover circuit. Of course, there are drivers with unpleasant frequency responses, but this is exactly what has to be taken care about in the crossover! One wrong part in the wrong place or with the wrong value can easily produce fatiguing effects.
WAY after this comes the cabinet of the speaker and the power supply of the amp or DAC. WAY way after this comes the quality of the parts used in a circuit. WAY way way after this comes the speaker cable, the interconnects and the power cords.
I myself have heavily modified speakers, a self build solid state power amp and a modified oversampling DAC. Over the last month I was always confronted with listening fatigue. I thought it might be the new amp, or the new dac, or the input or output coupling caps or both or all of this in combination. And I tried soooo many things, but something fatiguing always remained. But then I had a totally different idea (I was also encouraged by member lanchile ;-) and installed a zobel network on my tweeters. And guess what? Listening fatigue was totally gone!! Every kind of music I put on now just sounds "right" in a very certain way, not fatiguing, just enjoyable. The amp sounds just great, and the DAC too!
Of course there are really bad recordings, and this is where no one can do anything.
So my statement is: One single wrong part (or one important but missing!) part in a given circuit or a badly designed circuit itself can judge over nice, balanced and pleasant sound or just the opposite.
But perhaps I will find out more about all this later one, as it is in most of the times regarding diyaudio...
Regards!
Martin
For me, it's the circuit.
In a DAC, it's not the DAC chip itself, but the whole layout, the way the chip is implemented.
In a power amp, it's not the transistors or tubes in general, but the way... (same as DAC).
In a speaker it's the crossover circuit. Of course, there are drivers with unpleasant frequency responses, but this is exactly what has to be taken care about in the crossover! One wrong part in the wrong place or with the wrong value can easily produce fatiguing effects.
WAY after this comes the cabinet of the speaker and the power supply of the amp or DAC. WAY way after this comes the quality of the parts used in a circuit. WAY way way after this comes the speaker cable, the interconnects and the power cords.
I myself have heavily modified speakers, a self build solid state power amp and a modified oversampling DAC. Over the last month I was always confronted with listening fatigue. I thought it might be the new amp, or the new dac, or the input or output coupling caps or both or all of this in combination. And I tried soooo many things, but something fatiguing always remained. But then I had a totally different idea (I was also encouraged by member lanchile ;-) and installed a zobel network on my tweeters. And guess what? Listening fatigue was totally gone!! Every kind of music I put on now just sounds "right" in a very certain way, not fatiguing, just enjoyable. The amp sounds just great, and the DAC too!
Of course there are really bad recordings, and this is where no one can do anything.
So my statement is: One single wrong part (or one important but missing!) part in a given circuit or a badly designed circuit itself can judge over nice, balanced and pleasant sound or just the opposite.
But perhaps I will find out more about all this later one, as it is in most of the times regarding diyaudio...
Regards!
Martin
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I am working with it for few years. In theory of some people, listening fatigue caused by small part of missing information of the sound received by ear, most of this missing part is sound level (some other are sound source place converted by auricle, multiple source determining, etc). The ears&brain is working hard determining the correct sound level, because it is somewhat unclear or almost missing (the ears is using wave slope information, since there is no drum displacement sensor in ear).
Its starting is easily noticed when you don't clearly hear your environtment. Or when the loudspeaker stop playing, the ear not getting rest instantly, with them you don't need much time on designing your loudspeaker waiting fatiguing that will bother your work or even cancel it.
The major cause is 1) is amplifier and 2) digital encoding 3) is loudspeaker 4) may other things(compressor, fx, etc). The amplifier has the biggest cause. It doesn't matter how high is the price, even hi end amps. So you need to choose right amps, then good source then design your speaker. If you have amp that able to naturalize the sound, then any other cause is none.
I am currently tweaking my amp, it is done eliminating the fatiguing, and still choosing the best colors.
Its starting is easily noticed when you don't clearly hear your environtment. Or when the loudspeaker stop playing, the ear not getting rest instantly, with them you don't need much time on designing your loudspeaker waiting fatiguing that will bother your work or even cancel it.
The major cause is 1) is amplifier and 2) digital encoding 3) is loudspeaker 4) may other things(compressor, fx, etc). The amplifier has the biggest cause. It doesn't matter how high is the price, even hi end amps. So you need to choose right amps, then good source then design your speaker. If you have amp that able to naturalize the sound, then any other cause is none.
I am currently tweaking my amp, it is done eliminating the fatiguing, and still choosing the best colors.
I have had some speakers that sounded too "metallic" if that is the right word for it. Usually speakers that have Metal drivers have this problem. I had a few Klipsch speakers model and they all sounded too bright to me. So I guess speakers that sound too bright tents to be fatiguing. your ears get tired of listening speakers that sound too bright 😛
