The problem with this thread is that once hard positions have been taken, no argument will suffice to shake the ever growing conviction of ultimate truth which results from having taken that position! (Some call it 'inflation')
This factor is played upon by some who want no more than to inflame the differences between viewpoints and often taking totally contradictory views whilst so doing. It is easy to create such situations from an anonymous position behind a distant keyboard!
Now that invective and flaming appear to rule on this thread perhaps it is time to (finally and at last) close it down.
This factor is played upon by some who want no more than to inflame the differences between viewpoints and often taking totally contradictory views whilst so doing. It is easy to create such situations from an anonymous position behind a distant keyboard!
Now that invective and flaming appear to rule on this thread perhaps it is time to (finally and at last) close it down.
Last edited:
If I consider my speakers as the "source",then,IMO I have a trully great source.Experimenting for free with room treatments will not do any harm,and I will learn something.
But if room treatments are bandaids in your opinion,would you like to tell me what DSP is?To me it sounds like having two wrongs to make a right.....or am I wrong🙂
Thanks for sharing your subjective findings, it is interesting to hear your experience with different cables. Perhaps we must start a thread "Subjective evaluation of cables.", there will be more opportunity to compare notes and learn something usefull.
Joachim, before you fall away, I was wondering if you found a particular hook-up wire that you like best? I have tried a number, but my real favorite, the so called 'Bear Silver wire' (because Bear supplied us) is no longer available. I have tried VDH with some success, over the years, but his best is too difficult to work with. I like Jenna Labs super copper custom made wire for hook-up wire, but it is awfully delicate, and sensitive to heat damage. It is what I have, in multiple twisted pairs for the cable between my CTC Blowtorch preamp and my power amp in balanced drive. No complaints here on that.
No, I was referring to the Intons-Peterson paper you cited vis a vis the proposed tests that we're doing with TG, and why that citation is totally inapt.
.
.
"What I suggested in my exchange of letters with Johnsen is that he do some blind tests and tell us about the results. These don't have to be done with DPDT switches just have a disinterested person unhook the wires and hook them up again with reversed polarity."
I already explained that in the previous post; while the scientific communitiy is able (and interested) to avoid such a factor in upcoming experiments, the "normal listener" isn´t always in the position to get rid off his speakers to avoid a possible factor.
Please try sometimes to follow an argument; everything is fine, if you insisted that the burden of proof is on the shoulder of the claimant (whatever claim he´s made), but if somebody present the _claim_ that the didn´t hear something than he has to show that it wasn´t only due to the fact that he doesn´t want to hear something. (a bit exaggerated for clearness, more unintentionally it would be just the well known expectation bias of )
I´m sorry but expectation bias doesn´t only occur in cases where you want it. 🙂
There´s a difference between "Ausrede/excuse" and "Erklärung/explanation" .
But that´s only important in a discussion; if you were only on a "tour de strong belief" than it obviously doesn´t matter anymore.
Wishes
P.S. Regarding psychology; you should read about confirmation bias.
I hope that the correspondence here between Joachim and me gives interested third parties a look at how real audio designers operate and make decisions. I have similar discussions, off line, with Charles Hansen, Bear, Kirkwood Rough, Dick Sequerra, and many other designers on a regular basis. There is no DBT necessary between us, and we respect each others opinions and suggestions. This is how we grow, rather than stay in place, with excessive demands for hard proof, etc.
SY, i´m totally lost here; i only remember to have linked the demand characteristics article of the stanford encyclopedia and my "fourth hand anecdote" refers to your remark regarding the meyer quotation about the IQ test rdf was talking about. (While it maybe a fourth hand anecdote, that topic it relies on seems to be quite substantial)
And two posts after that i explained that it is important to the sort of tests meyer/moran did, so that should have made it clear.
As we were discussing in this thread about a lot of different topics and tests, it might be useful if you open just a specific thread about the new "TG test" to avoid any confusion with other topics?!
Wishes
That article was a precis of the paper. Personally, I would rather read the primary literature, so I got the original paper rather than the Cliff's Notes version.
Why should i know what "in all of Germany" exists? I´ve only posted that i did blind test and double blind tests with ~120 people.
You should know, as it was you. 🙂
Who does tests and draws generalized conclusions from the results, has
to do objective, reliable and valid tests, it´s as simple as that.
Wishes
More than I thought. By coincidence I was reading Superfreakonomics, the latest Levitt/Dubner collaboration, and discovered they look at a similar effect in proffesional sports. Simply put, because junior sports is divided by age group, and at an early age one year is a big difference is size and speed, children born at the start of the year receive more encouragement, training and opportunity. As a result professional athletes with birthdays in the first half of the year greatly outnumber those in the second.
And please, don't anyone bother arguing encouragement and attention affects performance while accusations of witchery, self-delusion, and that perennial fantasy "it's all about $$$$$" are performance neutral. That's counter to all common sense.
This test does not seem to have been mentioned here:
YouTube - Townshend Audio Isolda Speaker Cable "geometry matters"
(it came up on another forum I read)
Nice test, but I don't see anything here that isn't due to LCR differences.
This is similar to the test I proposed to the Randi institute.
The Cerwin Vega tests were similar, measuring at each end of the cable.
YouTube - Townshend Audio Isolda Speaker Cable "geometry matters"
(it came up on another forum I read)
Nice test, but I don't see anything here that isn't due to LCR differences.
This is similar to the test I proposed to the Randi institute.
The Cerwin Vega tests were similar, measuring at each end of the cable.
Wow, the analogies get even more strained. Keep it up and you'll need a truss. Or are you suggesting that tests of magic wire effects should be restricted to people born in January? Maybe that explains my skepticism- my birthday is in December (same day as jneutron, coincidentally).
So is my mother's. What analogy? It was just another data point of recognition that performance can be affected by others. We're starting at square one here. You seem to be working from a model of human psychology best described as robot. Of a sorts anyway, completely impervious to animate influence but irrevocably the pawn of the inanimate, like cable colours or price tags.
While on team sports, it would be more convincing if you found issue with AJ's unrelenting claim of omniscience. Burden of proof rests not on the claimant but on sides apparently.
Burden of proof rests on claimant. Burden of proof especially rests on claimant when making extraordinary claims. Contra Jakob, it is not the responsibility of physicists to spend time testing perpetual motion machines when the guys peddling them won't provide data nor details on experimental design. Likewise, when fabulous claims of non-mundane audibility are put forth, it is the responsibility of claimants to present evidence, not of the engineering community to spend time and effort debunking them.
The fact that they are, on average, 6 months older than their peers, during any given school year is less of a possibility than "encouragement, training and opportunity" in their success?
This has what to do with adults listening to music?
Since when?
Posted by John Curl -
....without Examination is Prejudice.
So you don't/can't measure, but you know FR is not altered by your magic wires. 😕
That's quite a conundrum.
This is the biggest problem with audiophiles. They have no familiarity with (the reference of) science, or live acoustic sounds, so they must rely on what is read in HiFi rags. If you used live acoustic music as a reference and gained some familiarity, you would quickly hear the limitations of a small dome over cone on the face of a resonating box...and that there is no "wire sound" in real life. Those are imaginary constructs of electro-acoustic systems.
For the rationalist, only if it is audible. For the subjectivist, whatever they believe.
Then you definitely need a reference.🙂
Seek out someone who has an Orion, Summa or Synergy Horn, to hear what great (reproduction) sound waves are like, rather than mere pretty woodworking.
Unless of course the latter is the most important.
You will learn whether you like killing spaciousness. Without a "live acoustics" reference, you may well like it, as many audiophiles do.
DSP is electronic adjustment at the source, not passive damage to the reverberant field. If the source is linear and well designed, only minor correction at LF for inevitable mode peaks suppression are required. And no, a $20k piece of audio jewelry is utterly useless in this regard (to real world issues), just in case you were wondering 🙂.
The ensuing chaos and disarray of opinions would be a sight to behold. Please do 😀.
😕😕 In a double blind, would you want the switcher to not know he was unhooking wires? How would you do that?
Right. Now what does that have to do with my question?
It's difficult to follow, lacking any logic. IOW, prove a negative? That I can't hear "it"? What "it"?
Right. Then there is "nothing to hear", where expectation...or not...means squat.
Right. And it's clear which one accounts for why you have no blind tests to show...and never will.
In all of Germany there is not an abundance of "wire hearers"? Not on all the online audio forums? No one available even in this thread? Really?🙄
cheers,
AJ
- Status
- Not open for further replies.