The speaker is designed to optimally perform its task as a convertor while the job of the speaker cable is to get the signal as undistorted as possible to the speaker. All the power is supposed to be dissipated by the voicecoil not partly by the cable. It is just silly to try and compare the two.
Are you sure, have you tested them?
Andre, SY et al are giving you what I originally heard, about 30 years ago, from Quad. However, there is a serious difference between the material in the voice coil and a wire, even if the original wire material is nothing to brag about. When used in a loudspeaker, it is exposed to a very intense magnetic field at all times, and often gets heated up on loud musical passages that actually changes its overall resistance, and gets exposed to intense accelerations. Also, we usually don't think of a single loudspeaker coil doing everything. In my system for example, there is a subwoofer, with most probably a fairly low ga wire, a midrange with another ga wire, and a tweeter with even another ga wire. This is pretty normal.
The lesson is: The hear nothings tend to dismiss any improvements, usually this starts with manufacturers trying to save money for free lunches, but extends to academics who like to dismiss just about anything.
Trust your ears, Andre.
The lesson is: The hear nothings tend to dismiss any improvements, usually this starts with manufacturers trying to save money for free lunches, but extends to academics who like to dismiss just about anything.
Trust your ears, Andre.
What cannot be disputed is that the speaker current that goes through the cable also goes through the 30ga voice coil.
Now suppose that the cable has some impedance that make the speaker terminal voltage differ from the amp terminal voltage. We can then say that the cable influences the signal, and it can or cannot be audible.
The question is, does the impedance (or whatever) in the voice coil also influence the signal in a similar way? I'm not a speaker expert, but does anyone know what the effect of DC voice coil resistance, voice coil inductance and capacitance between the windings is on the sound?
I have no hard data but it stands to reason that the resistance, inductance and interwinding cap of the voice coil is much, much larger than that of the cable. Is it then worthwhile to worry about that tiny cable stuff in light of that huge voice coil stuff?
Or is this comparison wrong because the cable just has to transport the energy while the voice coil is actually part of a generator?
Edit: Just read John's post above, and he mentions another point. The voice coil changes temp with the signal, dynamically, often over a single cycle. That leads to signal compression and other niceties in speakers that we never see in electronics (or at least not in the same magnitude). So, is this again a reason why cables should have very little effect compared to the voice coil wire?
jd
Last edited:
Actually, my point is that even relatively poor copper in a speaker voice coil is subjected to so much agitation, magnetic, thermal and physical, that maybe, just maybe, the connections inside the wire find their lowest energy level faster and easier than any wire or cable connected to it. Food for thought.
Hey Tubeguy
Well I guess you are right and it does get a little crazy with the hyperbole in these discussions. I just think there are always extremists on either side of the fence in these seemingly unanswerable questions flinging their own brand of easy answers, sweeping generalizations, and straw men into the pile of worthless knowledge in the middle lol. Maybe you have stumbled onto something though that needs to be studied like "The expectation of expectation bias bias"
Hello Key!
Yes there are definitely extremists on both sides of the wire issue. I've even coined an term LFO or Lunatic Fringe Objectivist. That said I'm quite sure the term LFS or Lunatic Fringe Subjectivist would apply to some equally as well.
As a staunch but, rational subjectivist, I'd like to be crystal clear that I am NOT anti-science. Personally I believe in time science will discover that the truth of many audio issues lies somewhere between the two differing views! As I've just spoken about science I'd like to clarify the point I'm attempting to make. I don't believe science doesn't know how nor do I believe science doesn't have the "tools" to discover and measure why audible differences in wires exist that aren't revealed in typical LCR measurements. What I believe is no one has been willing to throw the amount of $$$$$$ it would require to scientifically discover & prove in a peer-reviewed & published study, why audible differences in wires exist that cannot be seen in typical LCR measurements.
To me this makes perfect sense. Consider that wire manufactuers don't see any need to spend the $$$$$$ it would require to scientifically discover & prove in a peer-reviewed & published study, why audible differences in wires exist that cannot be seen in typical LCR measurements. Why? Because they already have people buying their products without ever having to do such a study. So why throw away valuable profits proving something their customers already believe, i.e., wires audibly sound different! Some might suggest that spending the money to prove wires sound different would increase their sales but, would it? Do you honestly believe that people who cannot hear a difference between zipcord and expensive wires in an audio salon or a friend's audio system would buy more expensive wires because a peer-reviewed & published study said these audible differences existed? I don't!
Now if the wire manufactuers won't spend the $$$$$$ it would require to scientifically discover & prove audible differences in wires exist, then that would leave it to those who don't believe audible differences exist in the first place to provide the proof! If that's the case and it appears to be exactly what must happen. I question, why would those who are positive LCR measurements are sufficient enough to reveal any audible differences in wires, ever spend the significant $$$$$$ required to scientifically prove what they believe about audible differences in wires isn't correct? The answer is they won't! So we end up with...
1) We know that science could discover the reasons why this is so "if" someone would spend the required $$$$$$$ to discover & prove why audible differences in wires exist!
2) Wire manufactuers don't see a need to spend the required $$$$.
3) Those who believe LCR measurements are sufficient, won't spend the $$$$!
4) The arguement/debate/discussion rages on!
Finally I found your comment about studying like "The expectation of expectation bias bias" quite humorous!
Thetubeguy1954
~Rational Subjectivism. IT's An Acquired Taste!~
Being the science man you say you are, isn't it then the first thing of order to clearly and convincingly show that audible differences DO exist? Without that, you chances for getting those $$$$$$'s are slightly less than zero. And rightly so.
jd
As this was the original statement:
"Originally Posted by Andrew Eckhardt
The most unhumorous part of the whole speaker wire debate is the 50 feet of 30 gauge wire the signal goes through inside the speaker."
i really don´t get it why the superposition principle makes it more reasonable.
Wishes
"Originally Posted by Andrew Eckhardt
The most unhumorous part of the whole speaker wire debate is the 50 feet of 30 gauge wire the signal goes through inside the speaker."
i really don´t get it why the superposition principle makes it more reasonable.
Wishes
perhaps not
Then again, maybe... just maybe... all this activity at the cellular (oops... ..molecular(oops... ) atomic level constantly makes and breaks the intergranular forces and or atomic structure, producing a constantly changing state of microscopic evanescent material properties. Then, perhaps, just possibly, and maybe as well, this doesn't result in a darned bit of difference compared to the orders of magnitude changes in other macroscopic properties that have been studied, analyzed, discussed, tested, brought forth, disambiguified, peer reviewed, and or otherwise exemplified innumerable times over decades of electronic and metallurgical research, eh?
seems likely to me...
Then again, maybe... just maybe... all this activity at the cellular (oops...
..molecular(oops... ) atomic level constantly makes and breaks the intergranular forces and or atomic structure, producing a constantly changing state of microscopic evanescent material properties. Then, perhaps, just possibly, and maybe as well, this doesn't result in a darned bit of difference compared to the orders of magnitude changes in other macroscopic properties that have been studied, analyzed, discussed, tested, brought forth, disambiguified, peer reviewed, and or otherwise exemplified innumerable times over decades of electronic and metallurgical research, eh?seems likely to me...
Last edited:
Jan,
When folks visit, the demonstration is to run a sweep, unplug the cable and reinsert it run another sweep, swap the cable end for end, third sweep and finally reinsert for a final sweep. There are minor changes from just reinserting but there are much larger changes from swapping ends. Yes returning to the first orientation gets back to the first curve.
There are many issues to look at. One is clearly a difference in fit of the connectors which may be repeatable. A second may be due to the micro-fractures along the conductor surface. (Support comes from annealed wire has less distortion) I am looking at possible iron residue from the drawing process requires energy to saturate and then reverse the magnetic orientation. I think it is possible for this to be a directional effect others do not.
I have heated a bare copper strip until a nice oxide layer formed. During heating the distortion changed but returned to the base level after cooling. This would indicate that micro-diodes are not a cause.
So the answer is I have some interesting measurements, more work is required to get a more precise answer, but fore my engineering goal of 160db signal to noise I have enough information for designs.
the superposition theorem
You forgot the part about the polarons and Cooper pairs.
For anyone else who's done goofing around, one might consider continuity equations as well. By ignoring superposition, we're claiming First Law violations. Cool!
Janneman,
I said and please read carefully I'm not anti-science. That statement doesn't equate to I believe LCR measurements are sufficient to reveal why there are audible differences in wires. In addition I fully well realise my passing a controlled DBT will not change anyone's mind. So I do NOT expect the mainly scientifically oriented, amongst us to spend the $$$$$$ it would require to scientifically discover & prove audible differences in wires exist that aren't revealed in LCR measurements! In fact I'm willing to bet this group of people will prefer looking for ways to discredit the test itself!
I'm sorry Janneman but, your arguements are starting to become absurd. You want me or another audio hobbyist, to clearly and convincingly show that audible differences do exist? How via a controlled DBT? Then after I/we do this you believe scientists will spend the $$$$ to discover and prove the reasons why these audible differences aren't detected by LCR measurements? PA-LEEESSEEE! Your arguement reminds me of the one presented to me by a wire naysayer on Audio Asylum. When I've previously offered to have my ability to detect differences in a controlled test on Audio Asylum, I had some idiot tell me "When you prove you can reliabily hear differences in a peer-reviewed, published study. Then I'll come test your abilities to detect differences in wires!"
In both cases "IF" I can prove I can detect differences:
a) Why would science spend the $$$$$ to prove what I've already proven in a controlled scientific test?
b) Why come test my abilities to detect differences in wires when I have a peer-reviewed, published study that proves I can?
To me both of your arguements/responses are assinine and illogical.
Thetubeguy1954
~Rational Subjectivism. It's An Acquired Taste!~
- Status
- Not open for further replies.