Hi Scott,
Iam sure this is a silly idea, but connecting some driver out of phase in the LA will not resolv this problem??
Long ago I see Bessel had various LA connections with a out of phase FR driver in the meddle of the LA.
Iam sure this is a silly idea, but connecting some driver out of phase in the LA will not resolv this problem??
Long ago I see Bessel had various LA connections with a out of phase FR driver in the meddle of the LA.
I've had a couple inquiries about the Alpair 12 and it's gotten me interested (for myself) in the driver. I have yet to hear them myself but I suspect that this will be my next personal project.
Scott, are there any designs in the works for these as of yet besides what Mark posted?
Scott, are there any designs in the works for these as of yet besides what Mark posted?
As I posted a bit back, I have a pair running OB with 200Hz roll-off to match a Alpha15 H-Frame. I love the tonality, though the detail is a bit better on the Alpair 7, which might be a better match since I am leaving off the low end. It is worth hearing, though. A piano sounds like a piano, which is high praise in my book.
I think that's a very important statement. I've found that piano can be a deal breaker for some drivers. I know in a car environment I use piano to tell when I've got a tweeter crossed over too low for it's own good. 😀
Gentlemen
I have been monitoring this thread in the hope of reading more about how this driver sounds, implementation options and overall user satisfaction when compared to other FR drivers.
Hopefully some of us are still at home and in a position to comment.
Regards
Jozua
I have been monitoring this thread in the hope of reading more about how this driver sounds, implementation options and overall user satisfaction when compared to other FR drivers.
Hopefully some of us are still at home and in a position to comment.
Regards
Jozua
Hi All
These seem to be interesting drivers – the description of their sonics is very appealing. I would like an additional 3dB sensitivity though.
Also, was this question of dispersion of the A12 vis-à-vis the A10 directly answered? I could not see a response; however, I am somewhat less than optimal this morning and therefore may have missed it. Considering the experiences of folks here, I think someone would be able to provide a meaningful answer / share their experiences.
Cheers
Raymond
These seem to be interesting drivers – the description of their sonics is very appealing. I would like an additional 3dB sensitivity though.
Also, was this question of dispersion of the A12 vis-à-vis the A10 directly answered? I could not see a response; however, I am somewhat less than optimal this morning and therefore may have missed it. Considering the experiences of folks here, I think someone would be able to provide a meaningful answer / share their experiences.
Cheers
Raymond
My impression
Hi there,
This is my first post on diyaduio forum. First of all I like to congratulate Mark for his success in delivering technically best designed driver. I also like to thank Dave and Scott for their support in Pencil 12 design.
Now let me share how they sound. Since I have Klipsch Reference RF-83 series, all comparison are with Klipsch. Before I start let me tell you how I feel about Klipsch Reference. I would say they are very very good in dynamics, clarity and sear pleasure of hearing them. I did audition all Bestbuy Magnolia expensive brands and also few very good system including KEF Refe at $ 20 K, Martinlogan Summitxbladche at $ 14K, Sonus Faber Elipsamap at $ 17K & Ceremonammap at $10K, and Klipsch Palladium P39F at $ 20K. All are great speakers. But after converting my Klipsch RF83 into active none of them came close to my taste & expectation except Klipsch Palladium P39F itself. I have to admit though I liked Sonus Faber Ceremonammap for imaging with McIntosh driving (~25K system) in the store. But I do not have money like that to spend so I decided to get into the DIY speaker building. After reading a lot of threads, I decided to get into single driver speaker. After comparing all drivers & based on Mark's technical explanation on how Alpair 12 is better in each area (well being an engineer it wasn’t that hard to convince me); I decided to give it a try. So here I am to share after listening to Alpair 12 Pencil.
Alpair 12 is very clean from top to bottom. Top end is very detailed without any hint of being bright or harsh. I can hear them for long hours. Middle is again pleasing. Bottom is very clean. I have SVS Ultra 13 sub which is very well reputed for its clean bottom. I would say though Alpair 12 does not go down that low, it has more definition as a whole then running it with SVS at 60 / 80 hz. For music Alpair is very good. For movies you need sub with it. Comparing to my active Klipsch system, it has its own class. In details at top end Alpair has edge. Dynamics is almost equal to Klipsch with Klipsch having the edge. For bottom obviously Klipsch wins but in apple to apple comparison Alpair has more clarity and definition. In imaging both are very good but not the best (not sure if it is my system or my room)
So here you have it, a very very good fullrange driver. I am a very happy camper. I am sure whoever buy would be very happy and satisfied like me.
I am not sure how to attach pic but will post them soon...
Creek
Hi there,
This is my first post on diyaduio forum. First of all I like to congratulate Mark for his success in delivering technically best designed driver. I also like to thank Dave and Scott for their support in Pencil 12 design.
Now let me share how they sound. Since I have Klipsch Reference RF-83 series, all comparison are with Klipsch. Before I start let me tell you how I feel about Klipsch Reference. I would say they are very very good in dynamics, clarity and sear pleasure of hearing them. I did audition all Bestbuy Magnolia expensive brands and also few very good system including KEF Refe at $ 20 K, Martinlogan Summitxbladche at $ 14K, Sonus Faber Elipsamap at $ 17K & Ceremonammap at $10K, and Klipsch Palladium P39F at $ 20K. All are great speakers. But after converting my Klipsch RF83 into active none of them came close to my taste & expectation except Klipsch Palladium P39F itself. I have to admit though I liked Sonus Faber Ceremonammap for imaging with McIntosh driving (~25K system) in the store. But I do not have money like that to spend so I decided to get into the DIY speaker building. After reading a lot of threads, I decided to get into single driver speaker. After comparing all drivers & based on Mark's technical explanation on how Alpair 12 is better in each area (well being an engineer it wasn’t that hard to convince me); I decided to give it a try. So here I am to share after listening to Alpair 12 Pencil.
Alpair 12 is very clean from top to bottom. Top end is very detailed without any hint of being bright or harsh. I can hear them for long hours. Middle is again pleasing. Bottom is very clean. I have SVS Ultra 13 sub which is very well reputed for its clean bottom. I would say though Alpair 12 does not go down that low, it has more definition as a whole then running it with SVS at 60 / 80 hz. For music Alpair is very good. For movies you need sub with it. Comparing to my active Klipsch system, it has its own class. In details at top end Alpair has edge. Dynamics is almost equal to Klipsch with Klipsch having the edge. For bottom obviously Klipsch wins but in apple to apple comparison Alpair has more clarity and definition. In imaging both are very good but not the best (not sure if it is my system or my room)
So here you have it, a very very good fullrange driver. I am a very happy camper. I am sure whoever buy would be very happy and satisfied like me.
I am not sure how to attach pic but will post them soon...
Creek
Excellent Creek! I'm happy you're enjoying them. Get some pictures upwhen you can, I'd love to see your work!
Hi Creek
Thanks for sharing your positive comments. If you don't mind, could you please put them into a more detailed (and helpful to me) context?
For example:
Also, would it possible to share some details regarding the size of the effective listening position / sweet spot and how the sound changes as you move from it?
Again, thank you for taking the time post your comments.
Cheers
Raymond
Thanks for sharing your positive comments. If you don't mind, could you please put them into a more detailed (and helpful to me) context?
For example:
- Basics of your system, especially amplifier type and power
- Room size
- Musical preferences and listening volume, specifically to qualify your point about dynamics
- Relative efficiencies of both systems
Also, would it possible to share some details regarding the size of the effective listening position / sweet spot and how the sound changes as you move from it?
Again, thank you for taking the time post your comments.
Cheers
Raymond
Hi Italynstylion,
If you can guide me on how to attach pic from my hard drive I will post them immediately. When I am trying to attach, it is asking for URL link. not sure how to do it...
Hi Raymond,
I have Denon AVR-4306 amplifier which I believe is AB with 120 watt each channel. CD player is Denon DVD-5910 and PS3 (it up converts so very good for mp3). All are fed very clean 3 step filtered power with isolated transformer. Room is approximately 25 ft long x 12 ft wide x 10 ft high with speaker being 2 ft away from wall & back, about 8 ft apart and 15 ft from sweet spot, toed-in to intersect 2 ft in front of sweet spot and titled back about one inch from floor. I prefer listening at 85 - 95 db level and I am into Indian (Bollywood) music. Alpair is about 90 db and Klipsch is 100 db efficient. As I mentioned earlier I do not have perfect imaging but moving from sweet spot will eliminate elusion of singer's voice coming from center. You will not feel loosing any details as long as you are in 8x15 ft area. Beyond this area music would be more like everything is together not separated. Generally singers are in center about one foot behind speaker. Soundstage is within room boundaries. as you move towards speaker singer does not move but you start immersing in stage where left and right instruments start surrounding you.
One surprising thing I experienced was, I have two First watt F5 class A 25 watt stereo amplifiers; When I connected F5 to alpair I did not like the sound at all. I like to ask Mark and whoever has some insight to it why it sounded way better with Denon.
By no mean I am an expert so take my experience with grain of salt.
I live in Valencia, California. If you are local and like to visit, Feel free to contact me.
Creek
If you can guide me on how to attach pic from my hard drive I will post them immediately. When I am trying to attach, it is asking for URL link. not sure how to do it...
Hi Raymond,
I have Denon AVR-4306 amplifier which I believe is AB with 120 watt each channel. CD player is Denon DVD-5910 and PS3 (it up converts so very good for mp3). All are fed very clean 3 step filtered power with isolated transformer. Room is approximately 25 ft long x 12 ft wide x 10 ft high with speaker being 2 ft away from wall & back, about 8 ft apart and 15 ft from sweet spot, toed-in to intersect 2 ft in front of sweet spot and titled back about one inch from floor. I prefer listening at 85 - 95 db level and I am into Indian (Bollywood) music. Alpair is about 90 db and Klipsch is 100 db efficient. As I mentioned earlier I do not have perfect imaging but moving from sweet spot will eliminate elusion of singer's voice coming from center. You will not feel loosing any details as long as you are in 8x15 ft area. Beyond this area music would be more like everything is together not separated. Generally singers are in center about one foot behind speaker. Soundstage is within room boundaries. as you move towards speaker singer does not move but you start immersing in stage where left and right instruments start surrounding you.
One surprising thing I experienced was, I have two First watt F5 class A 25 watt stereo amplifiers; When I connected F5 to alpair I did not like the sound at all. I like to ask Mark and whoever has some insight to it why it sounded way better with Denon.
By no mean I am an expert so take my experience with grain of salt.
I live in Valencia, California. If you are local and like to visit, Feel free to contact me.
Creek
I lately change the baffle of my set up with the 12. The image presents a lot better with the singer standing taller and the sound stage is there, right in front of me, I almost can touch the singers on stage.
I think you might be on the right track. My OB 12's still sound very bright and I might need a larger baffle like you have done. Right now, I have switched back to the 7's.
Bright?????
I've never had any full-range sounds so right to me. May be my set up makes a bit different. I have a tube amp to the 12, and the JLH SS amp to 1858. The cut off point at 100Hz same as Martin's design and 80uf and 58mH to 12. I thought I could tweak it better, but I'd like to let it run over 300 hrs before I post my report. I thought I'd never go back to box speaker after this. OB sounds real, airy, wide/depth sound stage and the image is one of the kind that no other speakers that I've made can compare.
I've never had any full-range sounds so right to me. May be my set up makes a bit different. I have a tube amp to the 12, and the JLH SS amp to 1858. The cut off point at 100Hz same as Martin's design and 80uf and 58mH to 12. I thought I could tweak it better, but I'd like to let it run over 300 hrs before I post my report. I thought I'd never go back to box speaker after this. OB sounds real, airy, wide/depth sound stage and the image is one of the kind that no other speakers that I've made can compare.
Creek, hit the "go advanced" button at the bottom of the thread. Then scroll down a little and click the "Manage attachments" button. Then just load up your pic.
What did you change about them? How were they setup before? Were they in the cabinets in the background?
Creek
Thanks for the detailed response - much appreciated. It is postitve that the Alpair can provide decent volume levels in a not too small sized space without crapping out on moderatley challenging music. I am not exactly sure what you mean in relation to the listening position; however, that is probably academic - generally, moving from the sweet spot affects soundstaging, yet does not largely negatively affect other important elements of music transduction unless one moves way off-axis.
Thank you again for taking the time to post a response.
Cheers
Raymond
Thanks for the detailed response - much appreciated. It is postitve that the Alpair can provide decent volume levels in a not too small sized space without crapping out on moderatley challenging music. I am not exactly sure what you mean in relation to the listening position; however, that is probably academic - generally, moving from the sweet spot affects soundstaging, yet does not largely negatively affect other important elements of music transduction unless one moves way off-axis.
Thank you again for taking the time to post a response.
Cheers
Raymond
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