So I've really enjoyed my first foray into single driver speakers (some Omega 3's) and I'm loving all the things they do right, now I'm thinking I just need to find a good subwoofer to match to them. I've read a lot of threads in this forum about "x or y is a fantastic full range driver but if you need low bass you might want to add a sub." I'm just wondering if there is a "go-to" sub design that you single driver guys/gals like.
It seems that most of the full range drivers that I've been looking at at dropping off pretty quickly below 50 Hz (mostly in the 4.5-6 inch range) and while I don't need a sub that drops into the teens, something that goes into the mid 20's would be nice. I don't need to blast out any windows or win any SPL contests; basically I'm looking for a sub that picks up where a good full range driver drops off. I would still like speed, clarity, etc, I just want it to go a little lower.
Any thoughts are much appreciated.
It seems that most of the full range drivers that I've been looking at at dropping off pretty quickly below 50 Hz (mostly in the 4.5-6 inch range) and while I don't need a sub that drops into the teens, something that goes into the mid 20's would be nice. I don't need to blast out any windows or win any SPL contests; basically I'm looking for a sub that picks up where a good full range driver drops off. I would still like speed, clarity, etc, I just want it to go a little lower.
Any thoughts are much appreciated.
Speaking strictly as a newb, you want a sub that will complement room gain (the tendency of the room to boost low frequencies at about ~3db per octave but that's room-dependent). An EBS (extended bass shelf) that rolls off at approximately 3 db per octave will match nicely (yielding an approximately flat response, ignoring room modes). A sealed sub is also pretty good, rolling off at 6 db per octave.
Personally, I'm looking at maybe a couple CSS SDX7's in two sealed cabs. The EBS is trickier to get right. 🙂
The ultimate, though, is a tapped horn, to my newbie ears. Serenechaos has a pair of 7-foot-tall cabs that are just /incredible/ and not boomy at all. But they are quite large compared to, say, a small sealed box. 🙂
Personally, I'm looking at maybe a couple CSS SDX7's in two sealed cabs. The EBS is trickier to get right. 🙂
The ultimate, though, is a tapped horn, to my newbie ears. Serenechaos has a pair of 7-foot-tall cabs that are just /incredible/ and not boomy at all. But they are quite large compared to, say, a small sealed box. 🙂
You might look into an OB using a large, high QTS drivers, a la MJK's H-frames using either the Eminence Alpha 15a or the 18" Goldwood. Check it out at Quarter Wavelength Loudspeaker Design
Cheers, Jim
Cheers, Jim
Jim, right on! Subs are hard to get right, and OB bass is so much easier (no booming of the room modes). I am psyched to build MJK's JX92S/Goldwood passive this spring, when it's warm outside.
I really like the way my H-frames sound and would recommend building a pair to use with your Omegas. They enhance the bass of my BIBs. I prefer the H-frame sound to the sealed sub i used to use.
Godzilla
Godzilla
As mentioned in other threads, I recently finished reading Floyd E Toole's recent text on "Loudspeakers and Rooms", and while he's mostly focused on true multichannel audio (as in Home Theater) "done right", some of his observations regarding low frequency performance would no doubt apply to 2 channel audio.
The most salient points for me were that below the room's transition frequency (usually higher than the 80Hz often used as a default for surround system XO ), the room is pretty much in control (we probably already knew that); successful acoustic treatment of low frequency anomalies can consume a lot of space and materials; and finally, the number of woofers and locations required for even distribution of bass throughout even smallish rooms is not necessarily what has been standard practice in the past - a pair of woofers will often perform best on the side walls, rather than in the corners or under the "mains".
I certainly agree that the CSS SDX7 can deliver great performance in a small box (as small as less than 1 cu ft), but if more than 2 woofers are implemented, there are lower cost alternatives.
The most salient points for me were that below the room's transition frequency (usually higher than the 80Hz often used as a default for surround system XO ), the room is pretty much in control (we probably already knew that); successful acoustic treatment of low frequency anomalies can consume a lot of space and materials; and finally, the number of woofers and locations required for even distribution of bass throughout even smallish rooms is not necessarily what has been standard practice in the past - a pair of woofers will often perform best on the side walls, rather than in the corners or under the "mains".
I certainly agree that the CSS SDX7 can deliver great performance in a small box (as small as less than 1 cu ft), but if more than 2 woofers are implemented, there are lower cost alternatives.
Chris, I'm sure you're right that there are lower-cost options to using multiple SDX7's sealed but they're just so compact! Still, for me personally, subs have always been an exercise in frustration. Aside from Serenechaos' tapped horns, I've actually never heard deep bass that was completely right. Here's looking forward to the Goldwood's!
Godzilla, can you describe your BiB / H-frame setup, e.g. number of H-frames, number of drivers per H-Frame, position relative to the BiB, and whatever low-pass / high-pass you're doing?
Godzilla, can you describe your BiB / H-frame setup, e.g. number of H-frames, number of drivers per H-Frame, position relative to the BiB, and whatever low-pass / high-pass you're doing?
I always look for something that is more of a midbass than a subwoofer -- something that has good HF extension. And you should always aim for a pair (Toole's book makes it pretty clear why)
The SDX7 is one of my very favorite bass drivers. Used as a woofer somewhere between 14-21 litres sealed net (including volume faking by damping material), but you could get away with as little as 7 litre. We built a number of exactly 12" cubes with a built-in Foster plate amp. Very versatile, very simple. The SDX7 is fairly expensive thou, and needs at least minimal treatment before use.
If you can live with about 2x the volume the less expensive CSS Trio8 has huge bang for the buck.
ApexJr Super8, or Silver Flute 8" if you are on a real tight budget.
I have Alpha 15 and the Goldwood 18. I'm a bit leary of the 18 in the H frame, the enclosure itself limits the HF performance. But we won't really know till we try it.
dave
The SDX7 is one of my very favorite bass drivers. Used as a woofer somewhere between 14-21 litres sealed net (including volume faking by damping material), but you could get away with as little as 7 litre. We built a number of exactly 12" cubes with a built-in Foster plate amp. Very versatile, very simple. The SDX7 is fairly expensive thou, and needs at least minimal treatment before use.
If you can live with about 2x the volume the less expensive CSS Trio8 has huge bang for the buck.
ApexJr Super8, or Silver Flute 8" if you are on a real tight budget.
I have Alpha 15 and the Goldwood 18. I'm a bit leary of the 18 in the H frame, the enclosure itself limits the HF performance. But we won't really know till we try it.
dave
OB subs are the ONLY subs, IMO. But I don't like high-mass drivers. And don't use regular plate amps if you can possibly help it. Their sound is as tubby as the subs they are meant for. Use the best fullrange amp you can afford, and passively XO.
I really appreciate all the responses. I must say, after doing some research on the SDX7, I'm pretty shocked; I don't think anyone has ever recommended me a 6.5 inch sub! You guys really like it that much?
A small size would be nice, but is not absolutely necessary. Also, I've never heard, or even seen in real life, OB subs so maybe that would be something to consider as well.
It does sound like everyone recommends at least two subs; you like two small subs vs. one larger one?
A small size would be nice, but is not absolutely necessary. Also, I've never heard, or even seen in real life, OB subs so maybe that would be something to consider as well.
It does sound like everyone recommends at least two subs; you like two small subs vs. one larger one?
I'd have to agree. Especially if you're going to blend it with something that needs a helping hand down low.
My personal favorite is the Tang Band 6.5" neo sub. Fantastic little driver IMO. Takes a ton of power and sounds like angles (Barry White angles) when they play. I ran 4 in my last car and I'll be using 4 in my truck as well. I even bought two extras to try out with my Frugal horns.
Any relatively high Qts woofer in an OB or H frame will tend to have an optimum low pass crossover frequency between 100 and 200 Hz. The H frame bass goes down into the 20 to 30 Hz range and is totally different from a bass reflex or sealed speaker, it is deep and natural without the boom or ringing. Sort of like a well damped TL. The bigger diameter woofers barely move even on bass heavy music passages (music means acoustic not HT electronic sound effects). They can move a lot of air with just a little displacement so Xmax is typically not an issue unless you are playing music at crazy volumes. The Telarc 1812 overture moved my Goldwood H frame drivers less than 1/4 of an inch by my eye at a pretty decent volume level. Try it with a dedicated SS stereo amp and my guess is that you will also believe.
My recent favorite thing to tell people about is the Reckhorn F-1.
Creative Sound - Product Details
It's a cheap active sub cross. Using the high pass section of a plate amp is likely to sound kind of bad. It did in my system. Many folks just run their mains full range and add in a sub beneath, but with FR speakers I regarded taking some load off the mains as important. Take care with your sub XO is my advice.
I run a single 10 inch in a sealed box.
Creative Sound - Product Details
It's a cheap active sub cross. Using the high pass section of a plate amp is likely to sound kind of bad. It did in my system. Many folks just run their mains full range and add in a sub beneath, but with FR speakers I regarded taking some load off the mains as important. Take care with your sub XO is my advice.
I run a single 10 inch in a sealed box.
If considering the CSS SDX7, it's also worth looking at the Exodus Audio Anarchy - although they have quite different T-S parameters, they model very similarly in a sealed box, and are physically similar drivers: similar x-max, same size, and both use XBL2 motors.
Actually, they model similarly for a bass reflex box, too, although I'm not sure why - both look like they'd be quite happy in a ~16L box tuned to 40hz.
I think this is because they were designed for a similar purpose: to have enough bass to be the woofer in a 3 way, but enough high frequency extension to make a reasonable 2-way.
DIYCable.com : Intro » Home » Exodus Subwoofers »
At the moment the Anarchy is quite a lot cheaper, but that's an introductory special.
Actually, they model similarly for a bass reflex box, too, although I'm not sure why - both look like they'd be quite happy in a ~16L box tuned to 40hz.
I think this is because they were designed for a similar purpose: to have enough bass to be the woofer in a 3 way, but enough high frequency extension to make a reasonable 2-way.
DIYCable.com : Intro » Home » Exodus Subwoofers »
At the moment the Anarchy is quite a lot cheaper, but that's an introductory special.
Really good value... needs some tweaking thou http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/analog-line-level/153925-reckhorn-f-1-others-suggestions.html
dave
No, not naturally. For an OB there will be a hump as you describe and for an H frame also a hump from the first quarter wave length resonance. There are plots of this in the OB documents on my site. So you use a 2nd order low pass electrical crossover around 150 Hz, just below these bumps in the SPL response, and end up with a summed acoustic crossover between 200 and 300 Hz. Then you use a 300 to 400 Hz 2nd order high pass crossover on the full range driver to get a nice smooth total response. This can easily be done with active or passive crossovers.
I have built the H-Frames using the Alpha 15A and I must say they are great, in not really big. They certainly don't disappear in the room. Very low WAF, although my wife does tolerate them. Post 156.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...od-gw-1858-woofer-h-frame-16.html#post1733944
Another option that I have used is one ported sub that I built. See:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/50778-seas-l26-musical-sub-amplifier-choice.html
Post 39. This is a great sub and works real good. I hide it along the wall behind a chair. Two would probably be better but at $300 a pop I never got around to building the second. At least to my ears, it integrates well with my 166-esr BLH. This sub is similar to the sub designed by Terry Cain to go with his full range speaker offerings.
The H Frame is clearly the better performer, at least to my ears and two can be built for about the same as the one ported.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...od-gw-1858-woofer-h-frame-16.html#post1733944
Another option that I have used is one ported sub that I built. See:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/50778-seas-l26-musical-sub-amplifier-choice.html
Post 39. This is a great sub and works real good. I hide it along the wall behind a chair. Two would probably be better but at $300 a pop I never got around to building the second. At least to my ears, it integrates well with my 166-esr BLH. This sub is similar to the sub designed by Terry Cain to go with his full range speaker offerings.
The H Frame is clearly the better performer, at least to my ears and two can be built for about the same as the one ported.
That looks very interesting; especially at the intro price. The website claims a well designed enclosure could get you usable bass in the 30-40 Hz range with in room response in the high 20's; what do you guys think? Possible?
A pair of these might make an excellent little project for me.
In 16L tuned to 40hz, F3 is about 37hz, while F10 is about 30hz. These figures are true, give or take about 3hz, for either the SDX7 or Anarchy.
There has been some suggestion (by Planet10, Geddes and others, including Floyd Toole) that anechoic F3 is quite misleading - planet10 particularly has suggested that the SDX7 sounds good sealed in about 14 litres, where it has an F3 of about 75hz and an F10 around 35hz. Again, these figures are also true within a few hz for the Anarchy.
Me, I'd build them sealed in 16 litres, allowing the option of venting them (or using electronic equalisation) if you don't think they go low enough.
There has been some suggestion (by Planet10, Geddes and others, including Floyd Toole) that anechoic F3 is quite misleading - planet10 particularly has suggested that the SDX7 sounds good sealed in about 14 litres, where it has an F3 of about 75hz and an F10 around 35hz. Again, these figures are also true within a few hz for the Anarchy.
Me, I'd build them sealed in 16 litres, allowing the option of venting them (or using electronic equalisation) if you don't think they go low enough.
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