Member
Joined 2002
The Fostex 167E seems to offer good value for money especially if i get a tweeter with it, the amount is still acceptable. The Alpair 10 is a little on the higher side, i dont know it the alpair 10 needs a tweeter!?
your words reassure me Dave, thanks.
your words reassure me Dave, thanks.
well, I guess not ever exceeding 90 dB SPL at 10ft listening distance in 2560 ft^3 room is certainly "low levels" by some standards
"Thousands" of HT systems, really?
let's throw another red herring in the mix: High powered amps, multichannel audio and REALLY efficient speakers not mixing? tell that to IMAX theatre designers
I know - it's all about venue and application, right?
It is. Chris uses FE167eN in a pair of Fonken167 for his HT (and i forsee a custom centre channel coming on, the deeper into Toole's book Chris gets).
We did a custom HT in Colorado that deployed sealed FE167 across the front (with dedicated woofers for L+R) and FE127 for RLB surrounds.
I don't feel that the FE167 needs a tweeter, some do. The one speaker i am seriously considering a tweeter for are the Alpair 10 boxes we have -- i have both HiVi & Foster electrodynamic planars that would suit the purpose.
The problem with the FE167 is that is sufficiently efficient that your Pioneer would be working where it is probably at its worst. But maybe some smart tech could turn up the bias a bit (give up some power, make it run hotter, but the 1st watts usually get better).
dave
Member
Joined 2002
SO your asking a guy that spent ( close to ) 2500$ us on a thx certified receiver to be dissembled & messed with to be tweaked so he can listen to a pair of speakers ? R u crazy ?
Link to amplifier, Not a cheap receiver to just take apart to tinker with.
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/receivers/3042/pioneer-elite-sc-07-av-receiver.html
Well i feel the receiver is capable of working at the low wattage in a sufficiently efficient manner, ( i think). Of course i wont play with the inside. The price i paid was in a discount period, so i got an acceptable deal for around 1200 USD.
My only problem is if i go for the less efficient alpair 10 for sake of power, the tweeters will raise the bar on the price, especially that i have to buy them from the same dealer in order to ship/pay for them together. Thus reaching a near price for the manufatcured HT speakers of Davis which seem to be good speakers as well. Will the Alpair 10s with ribbon tweeters outperform the Davis front LCR? (just thinking loudly) as eventually the project should have some cost effectiveness.
My only problem is if i go for the less efficient alpair 10 for sake of power, the tweeters will raise the bar on the price, especially that i have to buy them from the same dealer in order to ship/pay for them together. Thus reaching a near price for the manufatcured HT speakers of Davis which seem to be good speakers as well. Will the Alpair 10s with ribbon tweeters outperform the Davis front LCR? (just thinking loudly) as eventually the project should have some cost effectiveness.
Why not? This is a diy site. Almost nothing you can buy retail isn't subject to the cost accountants. If he goes with the Fostex he may well find it necessary,
I would recommend he have a listen to it.
For about the same price as FE167 he could have 2 pair of Mark Audio CHR70 or CSS EL70 and i think he'd be better off as far as mating with the receiver goes and avoid the potential 1st watt issues with the Pioneer.
(BTW, given the features built in, i wouldn't call this expensive)
dave
Thanks for the lead-in Dave: did I mention this should be recommended reading for any amateur, and as Floyd's decades of experience in the profession amply demonstrates, even more so recording and installation engineers / technicians? 🙄
If anything could get me thinking about seriously attacking this, it would be the Toole text, and a recent change in attitude by my wife. As I'd want to keep it simple, I'd be inclined to something like the small Outlaw processor and who knows what combination of amps.
What Dave didn't mention is that this system was powered by a flock of EL84 P/P amps ( SY's Red Light District), and several years later we have yet to hear any complaints of lack of power or dynamics.
Member
Joined 2002
and why do you say that ? It isn't a 2 channel hi-fi amplifier, its a 7.1 DoblyDigital THX certified amplifier, designed for home theater and multi zone, the features in this amp are top of the line, proper hdmi 1.3 ( simple firmware to see hdmi 1.35 ) upscaling from composite to hdmi & backwards.
this amp has so much potential, and for 2500$ us, id say its a pretty decent amplifier. Personally i have worked with Pioneer & Yamaha amplifiers all top of the line. My preference is Yamaha, because of there setup menu's and how they function to setup.
I would NOT recommend taking this amplifier apart to do such a mod, but instead build a amplifier your self ie Tube - Class a. ( as this one is Class D )
J'
A $2500 retail Integrated amplifier thse days would be considered the inexpensive end of specialist audio.
Add 5 more channels, tuner, all that processing (and the licencing to put the logo on the front) and you have to cutcorners somewhere.
dave
Add 5 more channels, tuner, all that processing (and the licencing to put the logo on the front) and you have to cutcorners somewhere.
dave
jason, let's not get too far off topic master debating the question of the merits or value of the original poster's HT receiver - no one is question its quality; but I do think you didn't pay attention to what Dave actually said - specifically that even at retail this IS a helluva value - but not one that some expert couldn't find some detail(s) over which to quibble
IINM, goldorak paid less than that, and I'm sure it's more than adequate for his (or many folks') needs
when was the last time you owned a piece of audio / computer /automotive gear you cared about long enough to keep that you didn't at least consider tweaking a bit?
back to your regular programming, kids - the Itchy and Scratchy show is brought to you by those fine people at ........
Last edited:
Member
Joined 2002
well, if i spent 2500$ on a receiver for HT, i would not take it apart to tweak it at all, if i wanted to tweak i would have bought a CHEAPER amplifier to do so with 🙂 most of the stuff in that Elite amplifier is smd, & small dip package style, nothing i would even touch even with my smd & soldering iron experience.
Hi Guys,
First I think you all have your point of views in regards of the receiver topic, it is as Dave said “it is the inexpensive end of specialist audio” barely even. And of course I wont open it as jleaman said because I believe it is too much integrated, if it was a normal amplifier without the DSP stuff, I might have done that or built a special amp of my own but that is not my aim, my aim is to build a set of LCR speakers to work with the current receiver.
Well chrisb, I went and bought a cheap SPL meter, it is in fact a multi function meter that amongst other things can measure sound pressure levels up to 100 dB plus or minus 4 dB! They don’t mention what frequency ranges it can sense, anyhow I don’t think it is the best meter, and in fact it is just to give some idea of what is happening. The model is MS8209 and the brand is Sinometer.
I will put a list with difference measurements mainly without the subwoofer (in all cases, I don’t know how the meter will work for low frequency sounds), and some with the subwoofer.
So I will use a song called “Big in Japan”J.
I will try as possible to catch peak values of SPL in the song and put them here but I will put as well the higher swinging range of SPL to give an idea.
Now for the meter, it seems working “fine” at least going up when the sound level goes upJ and it seems to give a reasonable SPL when there is no music on in my living room.
Measurements are taken during the afternoon at around 3 pm so not so quiet period of the day.
Ok let us begin.
The sound level will be at first taken at the sweet spot almost below head level in order to see the readings and directed towards the front speakers. The front speakers are around 3.5 meters (line of sight, i.e. I took a meter and measured distances between the place of the SPL meter to the center speaker) from the SPL meter. The front speakers are at a 170 cm height from floor, while the meter is at 90 cm from floor directed towards the center channel. The rear speakers are around 1.5 meters from the SPL meter however behind it, they are at around 115 cm from floor. I will take measurement with stereo mode and multi channel surround for music. The volume level on the receiver will be at 0 dB as I sometimes feel the satellite speakers can’t take more, so I don’t want to risk loosing them during the test. With some high level recorded songs the same values are reached at around -5 dB volume.
SPL with Music Off = 39 dB (unless a car a horn in the street is launched J, then it will be higher)
SPL with music on and using multi channel surround: (92 to 96.6 dB)
SPL with music on and using stereo: (89 to 93 dB)
SPL with music on and using multi channel and subwoofer on: 99dB to 100+ (limitation of SPL meter, but I think it is around there, some other songs with the subwoofer will reach 100 dB while the volume is at -5 dB. I mean I feel the air is coming out of the couch at the sweet spot when the subwoofer is on at 100 dB, the subwoofer is 1.5 meters from the sweet spot.
Music seems powerful at the sweet spot, nevertheless, it is missing some of the power of the mid bass and some of the mid range power. However the quality of the articulation of the sound is pretty good I can say. My ears are hurting me J I don’t know if it is from the 100 dB or too much high frequency power from the satellites. I think the Fostex or Alpair 10 will be fine J
I will now take the same measurements but sitting on the other side of the L shape couch, i.e. more near the front speakers but between the left side (read and front) speakers, around 3 meters from the subwoofer. My 2 and half years old son enters the house now, I need to finish fast so possibly hasty measurements but nevertheless good I think.
SPL with music on and using multi channel surround: (90 to 94.8 dB)
SPL with music on and using stereo: (90 to 94.7 dB)
SPL with music on and using multi channel and subwoofer on: 96dB to 98.9 dB
I rarely listen to songs at 0 dB volume level, I think it is too high for the ears, very scratchy highs, but clean. But as well possibly the edge of overdriving the satellites.
First I think you all have your point of views in regards of the receiver topic, it is as Dave said “it is the inexpensive end of specialist audio” barely even. And of course I wont open it as jleaman said because I believe it is too much integrated, if it was a normal amplifier without the DSP stuff, I might have done that or built a special amp of my own but that is not my aim, my aim is to build a set of LCR speakers to work with the current receiver.
Well chrisb, I went and bought a cheap SPL meter, it is in fact a multi function meter that amongst other things can measure sound pressure levels up to 100 dB plus or minus 4 dB! They don’t mention what frequency ranges it can sense, anyhow I don’t think it is the best meter, and in fact it is just to give some idea of what is happening. The model is MS8209 and the brand is Sinometer.
I will put a list with difference measurements mainly without the subwoofer (in all cases, I don’t know how the meter will work for low frequency sounds), and some with the subwoofer.
So I will use a song called “Big in Japan”J.
I will try as possible to catch peak values of SPL in the song and put them here but I will put as well the higher swinging range of SPL to give an idea.
Now for the meter, it seems working “fine” at least going up when the sound level goes upJ and it seems to give a reasonable SPL when there is no music on in my living room.
Measurements are taken during the afternoon at around 3 pm so not so quiet period of the day.
Ok let us begin.
The sound level will be at first taken at the sweet spot almost below head level in order to see the readings and directed towards the front speakers. The front speakers are around 3.5 meters (line of sight, i.e. I took a meter and measured distances between the place of the SPL meter to the center speaker) from the SPL meter. The front speakers are at a 170 cm height from floor, while the meter is at 90 cm from floor directed towards the center channel. The rear speakers are around 1.5 meters from the SPL meter however behind it, they are at around 115 cm from floor. I will take measurement with stereo mode and multi channel surround for music. The volume level on the receiver will be at 0 dB as I sometimes feel the satellite speakers can’t take more, so I don’t want to risk loosing them during the test. With some high level recorded songs the same values are reached at around -5 dB volume.
SPL with Music Off = 39 dB (unless a car a horn in the street is launched J, then it will be higher)
SPL with music on and using multi channel surround: (92 to 96.6 dB)
SPL with music on and using stereo: (89 to 93 dB)
SPL with music on and using multi channel and subwoofer on: 99dB to 100+ (limitation of SPL meter, but I think it is around there, some other songs with the subwoofer will reach 100 dB while the volume is at -5 dB. I mean I feel the air is coming out of the couch at the sweet spot when the subwoofer is on at 100 dB, the subwoofer is 1.5 meters from the sweet spot.
Music seems powerful at the sweet spot, nevertheless, it is missing some of the power of the mid bass and some of the mid range power. However the quality of the articulation of the sound is pretty good I can say. My ears are hurting me J I don’t know if it is from the 100 dB or too much high frequency power from the satellites. I think the Fostex or Alpair 10 will be fine J
I will now take the same measurements but sitting on the other side of the L shape couch, i.e. more near the front speakers but between the left side (read and front) speakers, around 3 meters from the subwoofer. My 2 and half years old son enters the house now, I need to finish fast so possibly hasty measurements but nevertheless good I think.
SPL with music on and using multi channel surround: (90 to 94.8 dB)
SPL with music on and using stereo: (90 to 94.7 dB)
SPL with music on and using multi channel and subwoofer on: 96dB to 98.9 dB
I rarely listen to songs at 0 dB volume level, I think it is too high for the ears, very scratchy highs, but clean. But as well possibly the edge of overdriving the satellites.
Hi guys again. I was thinking of the wattage matters discussed earlier. I had looked over other alternatives than the Fostex 167E which is using high power handling drivers such as for example Jantzen JA-6006 6" (or the 5 inch model) Midbass Driver 6 Ohm coupled with Jantzen JA-2806 1-1/8" Soft Dome Tweeter (which i found over online shopping sites) as these can handle 100 watts rated power up to 150 max power but the woofer has around 86 dB (1W/1m). however this solution is a little expensive and i dont know the quality of sound anticipated and takes the solution to 2 way system instead of full range (mainly not cost effective and possibly less refined then single source full range driver).
So thinking it over again and what you have mentioned regarding working a heating solution inside the receiver, i thought of using a heating solution outside the receiver, a high power L pad made of multiple resistors such as 4 ohm in series and 8 ohm in parallel with the FE167E. They can be of 75 Watts tolerance (this can be done by putting for example 3 parallel 24 ohm resitances of 25 watts in parallel to get an 8 ohm 75 watts resistor, etc.) would that solve the 1 watt problem and low wattage tolerance of the Fostex 167E, since with the Lpad, to give 1 watt to the FE167E, the amplifier should be giving 4 watts! and at 100 watts power out, the fostex will be getting 25 (or something like that). so would that solve the problem of wattage?
So thinking it over again and what you have mentioned regarding working a heating solution inside the receiver, i thought of using a heating solution outside the receiver, a high power L pad made of multiple resistors such as 4 ohm in series and 8 ohm in parallel with the FE167E. They can be of 75 Watts tolerance (this can be done by putting for example 3 parallel 24 ohm resitances of 25 watts in parallel to get an 8 ohm 75 watts resistor, etc.) would that solve the 1 watt problem and low wattage tolerance of the Fostex 167E, since with the Lpad, to give 1 watt to the FE167E, the amplifier should be giving 4 watts! and at 100 watts power out, the fostex will be getting 25 (or something like that). so would that solve the problem of wattage?
goldorak
I think you're overthinking it a bit - or at least searching in the wrong direction for a solution to a problem that hadn't yet been confirmed.
Any quality HT receiver (and by all accounts yours certainly qualifies as above entry level) should have relatively little problem meeting its specified power ratings. Jason can correct me on this, but I think the issue with driving all channels at lower than recommended impedance load is overtaxing the current capacity of the common power supply (more specifically the thermal safety margin of the power transformer) . Played long and loud enough (if the SP levels haven't already driven you from the room) the amp could possibly sustain expensive damage.
Forced cooling or wasting of power in dummy load resistors likely wouldn't help at all. -
This is the full-range driver forum, so it shouldn't be a surprise that suggestions for loudspeakers from those with a lot of system builds under their belts would include favored flavors of drivers and enclosure designs. However, few of us are deluded enough to assume that any of these will work in every particular situation.
You certainly have enough power available to consider a wide range of speaker solutions - you're not restricted to Full-range / single drivers, There are excellent values in pre-engineered multi-way kits for HT application; of course, I'm most familiar with those offered by suppliers on this side of the pond (i,e, Madisound, PartsExpress, Solen, etc.) , but no doubt our European / Middle Eastern contingent could make some suggestions.
I think you're overthinking it a bit - or at least searching in the wrong direction for a solution to a problem that hadn't yet been confirmed.
Any quality HT receiver (and by all accounts yours certainly qualifies as above entry level) should have relatively little problem meeting its specified power ratings. Jason can correct me on this, but I think the issue with driving all channels at lower than recommended impedance load is overtaxing the current capacity of the common power supply (more specifically the thermal safety margin of the power transformer) . Played long and loud enough (if the SP levels haven't already driven you from the room) the amp could possibly sustain expensive damage.
Forced cooling or wasting of power in dummy load resistors likely wouldn't help at all. -
This is the full-range driver forum, so it shouldn't be a surprise that suggestions for loudspeakers from those with a lot of system builds under their belts would include favored flavors of drivers and enclosure designs. However, few of us are deluded enough to assume that any of these will work in every particular situation.
You certainly have enough power available to consider a wide range of speaker solutions - you're not restricted to Full-range / single drivers, There are excellent values in pre-engineered multi-way kits for HT application; of course, I'm most familiar with those offered by suppliers on this side of the pond (i,e, Madisound, PartsExpress, Solen, etc.) , but no doubt our European / Middle Eastern contingent could make some suggestions.
Member
Joined 2002
That amplifier would not have any problem driving a pair of full range drivers on all 5-7 channel's, that amp is built to drive some pretty heavy dutie speakers, even ones with 2-ohm load's, it simple term's it's built like a bulldozer 🙂
However, if you got to effeciant of a speaker, you might find some smoke forming out of the boxes because the amplifier is a bit over kill, especially seeing chrisb & Planet10 using 3watt tube amps and seeing the fostex drivers SING really REALLY loud.
J'
However, if you got to effeciant of a speaker, you might find some smoke forming out of the boxes because the amplifier is a bit over kill, especially seeing chrisb & Planet10 using 3watt tube amps and seeing the fostex drivers SING really REALLY loud.
J'
Let me repeat. The whole thing about power handling is irrelevant. The potential to smoke a driver exsist with almost any amplifier, and a higher power one is less likely to be a problem than with a smaller one.
Foget about the power thing.
dave
Thanks guys for the input. Well I was not intending to lower the impedance (seen by the amplifier), so I was keeping the resistance as 8 ohm however trying to use passive resistors to protect the Fostex drivers from getting any high wattage through the Lpad. Thus there will be no danger I think.
But nevertheless there are other solutions as chrisb pointed out. I was very intrigued by the seemingly good experiences heard here of the fullrange drivers, and moreover because it is possibly less hassle to use without the crossovers. But most importantly I was eager to begin experimenting with some good drivers. The FE167E seem very cost effective, and the SPL seems good, i wonder what is the maximum SPL they can give though!
Regarding the availability of kits, I feel the US is better in this aspect, prices seems to be lower than Europe. The variety is better and the online shopping is more ripe then other places. In my direct region the alternatives are not easy to find. I have found though some Visaton (F8SC, FR10, and WS20E) drivers, not the best though. And of course there are professional loudspeaker drivers which are sold without technical specs and graphs.
I will try to check the alternatives, however it is difficult for someone like me with little experience to determine which kit or driver is best cost/value effective. I have as well read a little in the Toole book (just little for now, still reading when i have time) J
By the way I was hoping to get some feedback on the measurements taken of the SPL in my room, any comments, or thoughts?
But nevertheless there are other solutions as chrisb pointed out. I was very intrigued by the seemingly good experiences heard here of the fullrange drivers, and moreover because it is possibly less hassle to use without the crossovers. But most importantly I was eager to begin experimenting with some good drivers. The FE167E seem very cost effective, and the SPL seems good, i wonder what is the maximum SPL they can give though!
Regarding the availability of kits, I feel the US is better in this aspect, prices seems to be lower than Europe. The variety is better and the online shopping is more ripe then other places. In my direct region the alternatives are not easy to find. I have found though some Visaton (F8SC, FR10, and WS20E) drivers, not the best though. And of course there are professional loudspeaker drivers which are sold without technical specs and graphs.
I will try to check the alternatives, however it is difficult for someone like me with little experience to determine which kit or driver is best cost/value effective. I have as well read a little in the Toole book (just little for now, still reading when i have time) J
By the way I was hoping to get some feedback on the measurements taken of the SPL in my room, any comments, or thoughts?
Good start - I would strongly recommend an attentive reading (i.e. not a quick scan) of the entire text before finalizing a strategy for a new or upgraded multichannel audio system. Mr Toole has over 40 years of research in the field of acoustics an psycho-acoustics, and while some of his positions could certainly be considered as coming from the objectivist camp, he presents a far more balanced picture.
FWIW, if you can afford to take a bit of a break from designing this system, another highly recommended read would be
"This is your brain on music" - Daniel Levitin - it approaches the subject of how/why we hear/react emotionally to music. There's so much more to this than simple objective mechanics.
a couple:
read this regarding noise exposure limits
Occupational noise exposure. - 1910.95
If a typical movie night lasts longer than 3hrs at "theatrically realistic" levels, you could be risking unrecoverable damage to your hearing - far more costly in the long run than a blown driver or 2 - those can be replaced.
Let's allow the math geeks to enjoy calculating exactly what power the speakers might be consuming at your figure of 90 - 95dB for music using stereo (which suggests only 2 channels) at a listening window of 3.5meters in an acoustically asymmetrical room - but let's guess that with drivers of 92dB sensitivity at 8 ohms, you're probably still talking single digits per channel.
Put 5 or more channels of any type of speaker with sensitivity between 90 - 93 dB (each), with power handling ratings of say the FE167E, plus powered woofer(s) in your room, and chances are it'll be plenty loud enough to enjoy before anything breaks. Of course in a 500sq ft room with lots of acoustic treatment and seating adequate for a football team, or a dance club on New Year's Eve, the calculus would be quite different.
In almost 10 years of building loudspeaker systems (mostly, but not all full range), and over 40yrs of listening to a much wider range than that (at least a decade of that period in the retail audio business where demonstrations at stupidly high volume levels are not unusual) I have yet to personally damage drivers due solely to an amp's power rating being higher than the speaker manufacturer's recommendations. I've seen poorly glued surrounds on mid-bass drivers let go, with amusing flatulatory consequences ( early EPI), but never a blown voice coil on mid/bass driver.
On the other hand, I can't remember how many hundreds of crossovers and tweeters from which customers had released all colors and aromas of smoke with low powered amps. Of course car audio is an entirely different world of hurt for manufacturer's warranty, but the most common cause of damage in home systems was a low powered amp and parties.
"I don't understand it, dude, the speaker is rated at 60 watts, and the amp only has 30, so I had plenty of room to spare - and besides which, it wasn't too hot that I couldn't put my hand on it - and it never even blew a fuse"
The two times in the past several years that I've damaged my own drivers, or witnessed it by others, has been either with a defective solid state amplifier well within the driver manufacturers' specs ( funny what the full shorted DC rail of a Class A SS amp can do to a voice coil), or a DC coupled amp with the input signal repeatedly hot-jacked with the speaker still connected (and that was by a technician, folks).
It's not yet happened to me, but I'd imagine it much harder to damage a driver with any of my 3-30 watt tube amps - no doubt mr Murphy would visit the event and ensure the power or output transformer failed to protect the fuses or load - of course that's only conjecture on my part
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