The Eaton Cabinets have an internal volume of 30 litres
the Port is tuned for about 50Hz as far as I can see.
http://44bx.com/tannoy/images/Eaton.gif
If you sealed the port (without damaging your cabinet) you will get an rough idea what you could expect in a proper sealed box.
Reducing the volume to 20 litres is optimal for a mid top box, this actually will increase the effficiency above 90-100hz when compared with a 30 litre box.
The Crossover modifications are certainly worthwhile, if you are looking at these speakers as probably the best pair of drivers that you will own, rather than a collectors piece.
HPD 295 Crossover circuit here...
tannoy
I found that replacing the first capacitor in the HF section (4.7uF in your crossover) gave the most improvement to my Monitor Gold 15" drivers. The 1.5uF cap is a frequency compensation cap, but does make a difference.
You say that you will have a full wood workshop to build some new boxes. Have you any ideas yet on what materials and type of construction you would be happy with?
I would not dare touch capacitors in Reds, Silvers, Blacks, and so forth but since these are HPD's....
I stand corrected; the 4.7uF IS the better cap to replace (as you said).
Tannoys sure love a huge cabinet!
Japanese market had those drivers in some sort of GRF, didn't they?.
Going active can be very rewarding.
yes, Phil and I can go rounds on that forum sometimes, but I completely respect his....passion.
Seriously, he seems like a great guy...I imagine him wearing a laboratory coat. I go by "DC Pepperpot" on AudioKarma, and the Yahoo group.
A woodshop and the skills to use it well (unlike me) will make the project much easier.Sounds like a plan to me
I wont be able to build the cabs untill after i move (jan 10th) but after then ill have a full wood workshop at my disposal so i can get building.
Below is what I would do if I were you and why. I have not owned HPD10 but have had most of the Red and Gold and the HPD15.
I'll start with the xover:
1: Clean off and remake all the solder joints with decent eutectic solder. At the same time, replace the electro caps with good quality PP caps. You don't need to spend much as diminishing returns sets in very, very quickly here in my experience. Mundorf White are fine and modestly priced.
2: Replace the old cabling if needed. Again, nothing special needed here. Clean out solder and remake the 4 pin speaker connector if used.
3: Clean the level control switched with Caig or another suitable cleaner.
Going 3 way, with the existing HPD10 + xover and LF/midbass driver.
- The point of the LF driver is to take away much of the work required for the HPD10 in producing LF. For each octave down from a given F to be reproduced at the same level, 4x the excursion is required. Distortion is roughly proportional to excursion so keeping it low for a driver that covers a wide bandwidth is good. Added to that is the HPD is a coax with the cone forming part of the horn structure. In a horn the area of the throat is quite critical and having that move in and out because it's also trying to reproduce LF is not the best.
As I have no idea of budget, size or costs, I'll run something OTTOMH with what I would use. But to do this, you will need to buy 2 more drivers, buy/build a suitable active xover and have 2 more channels of decent SS amplification.
Using the partial T/S provided earlier:
QES 0.26
QTS 0.23
FS 26 Hz
VAS 0.2 m3
BL 11.2
RE 5.8 Ohm
then 24L net for the HPD10 gives a Qtc of 0.707 and an f3 of 68Hz.
I would then add a JBL 2226 in a 100L ported enclosure underneath the HPD10. The attached FR for this driver/box is using 400W, but as you Tannoys are rated at 50W, and are several dB less efficient, I doubt you will ever use more than 100W through the JBL's.
There are doubtless many other drivers you could use, but I suggested these as I am familiar with them and they are an excellent driver for a number of reasons; their FR is good way above the intended xover of 200hz or so, the SFG motor structure is low in distortion and the cooling structure designed into the motor will ensure that power compression will be a very minor factor in use with the HPDs.
FWIW, I have built some prototype WMT using the 2225 version of this driver, a JBL2123 10" midrange and CD/WG for the HF and they were excellent, even though they were a slap together from bits of scrap wood and some old boxes. So I am confident the suggested combo of the HPD and JBL will be excellent. It will also be smaller than the 150L HPD only suggestions, go louder and cleaner and be lower in distortion.
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Luckily, there are none of those in the HPD series.
A crossover point in which the sound become mostly non directional (around 60Hz) is a better bet; No sense in introducing another audible crossover point, because that defeats oneof the great merits of 10" Tannoys: an almost undetectable crossover point. Let the DC do it's thing to a reasonably low level (which is does Very well).
OK, here's where you and I can respectfully disagree: I dislike the 2226. It sounds terrible at anything into midbass territory (IMO), and the Tannoy HPD295 is an absolute CHAMP in that region. The HPD has better midbass than all other 10" Tannoys (due to its reinforced cone, etc). The midbass produced by these little wonders, along with their fantastic midrange is what makes them so special. I say run them out full range in the intended cabinet and simply augment with low bass (dedicated sub) where they leave off. For the record, one REALLY decent sub would suffice unless the OP has a huge room.
I once had a combo using a LE14H3, 2123H, and a Raven R1. Each driver was great, but I could not get them to integrate properly. I adore both the LE14H (now that would be a good match for the OP), and the 2123 is simply killer. I'm surprised you choose a 2226 over an LE14H1/3. You should consider that driver. Even the 2235H is a better driver to these ears, and it plays well at the upper frequencies, too. Heck, if the OP is just augmenting with sub bass, why not a single 2245H?
Comments were based upon memory alone as my last Tannoys left here in about 2003.
Apart from directionality being moot below 60Hz or so, I do not agree at all and I stated why in the previous post.
If my memory serves, I have never found any of the HPD15 to be anywhere near as good as the Red or Gold equivalents, where the reinforcing would be even more important if an issue.
I can only assume you had some problem using the 2226 well if you couldn't get it to work satisfactorily ported down to a lowish f3.
One sub? Nope, not from what I've experimented with based on my reading of Toole, Olive, Geddes or Welti. Lots of experience on the HT forums WRT this also.
My idea was to improve the midrange of the coax by having it work less hard, as I clearly stated earlier and my comments are based upon my experience. It has been my experience that this works well and xovers in the 200Hz range are not hard to make sonically unobjectionable.
I have not used the LE14, and my comments were that I would use what I had on hand as this was merely an 'example' exercise for the OP.I once had a combo using a LE14H3, 2123H, and a Raven R1. Each driver was great, but I could not get them to integrate properly. I adore both the LE14H (now that would be a good match for the OP), and the 2123 is simply killer. I'm surprised you choose a 2226 over an LE14H1/3. You should consider that driver. Even the 2235H is a better driver to these ears, and it plays well at the upper frequencies, too. Heck, if the OP is just augmenting with sub bass, why not a single 2245H?
If I were truly to do this project for myself, I would most likely use an AE TD15 driver as I prefer them to the JBLs.
Again not much experience with the 2245, but lots with the 2241/2. If I were to use a JBL with the HPD, I would likely use a 224x, sealed and EQ/LT applied to get the desired room response. I am using 2241's this way in the sides and rears of the system.
Yeah, the problem was that it sucked, in my opinion. Again, it's just my opinion. I got them out of a Cabaret series set, and they were replacements- new from Parts Express..very fresh. I had been spoiled by other great JBL LF drivers just before I got them and they were nowhere near a 2235 or LE14H1/3 in terms of musicality. Just my opinion....
One sub can work quite well, thank you. Granted, if the OP plans to pound his vintage speakers in a Home Theater scenario...maybe not. If listening to music, one sub does a fine job. It MUST be placed dead center of the speakers, though...that was the key to getting it sounding right (for me).
Sorry, I get defense about Tannoys. I love them dearly. I feel Tannoys have stellar midrange and need no help far as I'm concerned. In fact, many other speakers fall so very short on making the kind of crisp, organic midrange magic a decent Tannoy DC has. If you know how to make a Tannoy produce better midrange, I'm really freaking impressed.
I understood. I'm just saying you should try a pair if you get the chance. If you like the 2226, especially it's ability to cross high, you should love LE14H's (or 2235H).
Yes, that would probably rock.
Wow, lots of new posts and LOADS of info, thanks.
Just skimmed it for now, will re-read later when i can take my time.
I will never sell these so i dont mind modding them, i already planned on replacing caps/wire etc.
Ive built a few valve amps and have played with caps before with good results.
As for how i want to build the cabs, i was thinking of doing a bonded ply/chipboard cab, chipboard on the inside, ply on the outside, with lots of bracing.
I will also re-house the crossovers in a seperate box as ive found this to be worthwhile before.
Will be nice to have a workshop. I learnt to make acoustic guitars at university but since i left ive had no-where to work. Theres only so much you can do in the living room
Just skimmed it for now, will re-read later when i can take my time.
I will never sell these so i dont mind modding them, i already planned on replacing caps/wire etc.
Ive built a few valve amps and have played with caps before with good results.
As for how i want to build the cabs, i was thinking of doing a bonded ply/chipboard cab, chipboard on the inside, ply on the outside, with lots of bracing.
I will also re-house the crossovers in a seperate box as ive found this to be worthwhile before.
Will be nice to have a workshop. I learnt to make acoustic guitars at university but since i left ive had no-where to work. Theres only so much you can do in the living room
Read a bit more, thought it may be wise to add some info on my system.
My main source is vinyl.
My amp is a push pull el84 valve amp of about 15w.
So, options that require big SS power are not viable, at least not for powering the tannoys.
Also, as far as adding subs, im not sure i would like the idea of SS driving part of my system but ill give it a go if its going to sound well (if only i hadnt sold my highly modded quad SS amps)
I assume if i go the sealed box route ill defo need a sub.
Bearing that in mind, i assume said sub will have to be seperately powered buy its own SS amp (ive no real desire to try and build a monster valve amp!)
Subs are something ive never got involved with so i know nothing about them.
Is there no scope for a passive sub that could also be powered by my el84's? (that may be a silly question, i dont know)
I did think last night i could just seal the origional cabs port to get an idea of what it may sound like, ill try that later.
The main thing i dont like about the tannoys at the moment is the frequency extremes. Mid and treble is great, bass sounds a little confused maybe, not very controlled. Although that may be because of my amps output TX's.
The treble can also sound a littel disjointed at times, almost a little too seperated. Very good, but maybe a little too 'out there on its own'. They sound great on the whole but somtimes these issues make them seem a little flustered.
Ive not had them long though, it may just be that they are more revealing than my previous spekers (wd25a's) and are showing up my amps shortcomings, mainly its relatively small OTX's.
The tannoys have also only been used by me for about 2 hours and about 4 hours 2 months ago. Before that they hadnt been used for about 20 years.
My main source is vinyl.
My amp is a push pull el84 valve amp of about 15w.
So, options that require big SS power are not viable
, at least not for powering the tannoys.Also, as far as adding subs, im not sure i would like the idea of SS driving part of my system but ill give it a go if its going to sound well (if only i hadnt sold my highly modded quad SS amps
)I assume if i go the sealed box route ill defo need a sub.
Bearing that in mind, i assume said sub will have to be seperately powered buy its own SS amp (ive no real desire to try and build a monster valve amp!)
Subs are something ive never got involved with so i know nothing about them.
Is there no scope for a passive sub that could also be powered by my el84's? (that may be a silly question, i dont know)
I did think last night i could just seal the origional cabs port to get an idea of what it may sound like, ill try that later.
The main thing i dont like about the tannoys at the moment is the frequency extremes. Mid and treble is great, bass sounds a little confused maybe, not very controlled. Although that may be because of my amps output TX's.
The treble can also sound a littel disjointed at times, almost a little too seperated. Very good, but maybe a little too 'out there on its own'. They sound great on the whole but somtimes these issues make them seem a little flustered.
Ive not had them long though, it may just be that they are more revealing than my previous spekers (wd25a's) and are showing up my amps shortcomings, mainly its relatively small OTX's.
The tannoys have also only been used by me for about 2 hours and about 4 hours 2 months ago. Before that they hadnt been used for about 20 years.
One last thing, i think it was in another thread, but there was a suggestion to someone else to mount these in a rear ported 60l box.
Would this be a viable option? It would remove the need for a sub, but would the other frequencies suffer much?
If sealed is best for mid/treble, but ported will give me the bass back, what about an aperiodic (sp) cab like my wd25a's? Worth looking into?
The sealed cab does sound like the best way to go, but the need for seperate subs does concern me a little, unless i can drive a passive with my current amp.
Would this be a viable option? It would remove the need for a sub, but would the other frequencies suffer much?
If sealed is best for mid/treble, but ported will give me the bass back, what about an aperiodic (sp) cab like my wd25a's? Worth looking into?
The sealed cab does sound like the best way to go, but the need for seperate subs does concern me a little, unless i can drive a passive with my current amp.
A sealed cab should have no influence whatsoever on the treble as it is produced by a compression driver which is inherently sealed. Also it should not have much influence on mids either since a ported box behaves like a sealed cab from about an octave above port tuning.
As for amplification: The HPDs were designed with transistor amps in mind and despite their relatively high efficiency Tannoys will not give their best with low powered valve amps. Even the most efficient models (215DMT @ 101dB/2.83V, Westminster @ 96dB I think) will only really come to life when connected to large (or very large) transistor jobs. A high damping factor also helps.
This is not to say that you won't be happy with valves because Tannoys are surprisingly versatile and many enjoy them very much with their valve amps!
What state are your surrounds in? The foam ones (some drivers have rubber surrounds) do disintegrate over time. If time comes for a re-foam you might want to think about having them reconed using 10" Gold cones by Lockwood Audio. The Gold cones are lighter than HPD ones which should help the amp controlling them better.
For Blackeye:
Yeah, Phil certainly is… shall we say a bit eccentric! I think he built an annexe to house his 8(!) 15"DCs but than I can't really talk, I live in a flat and run my speakers with a total of 925Watts/ch! Yes, I do like a bit of headroom! ;-)
How are you getting on with your Lowthers? I kept out of that one on the premiss that if you haven't anything good to say it's best to say nothing! On the other hand that was probably the first time that I found myself agreeing with bare2510. He is a bit of the storm trooper on that forum and I had a few run ins with him over the years.
Btw I go as Lex_Pigpooh over there (b.l.zeebub on Audio Asylum, O.F.F. on gearslutz).
As for amplification: The HPDs were designed with transistor amps in mind and despite their relatively high efficiency Tannoys will not give their best with low powered valve amps. Even the most efficient models (215DMT @ 101dB/2.83V, Westminster @ 96dB I think) will only really come to life when connected to large (or very large) transistor jobs. A high damping factor also helps.
This is not to say that you won't be happy with valves because Tannoys are surprisingly versatile and many enjoy them very much with their valve amps!
What state are your surrounds in? The foam ones (some drivers have rubber surrounds) do disintegrate over time. If time comes for a re-foam you might want to think about having them reconed using 10" Gold cones by Lockwood Audio. The Gold cones are lighter than HPD ones which should help the amp controlling them better.
For Blackeye:
Yeah, Phil certainly is… shall we say a bit eccentric! I think he built an annexe to house his 8(!) 15"DCs but than I can't really talk, I live in a flat and run my speakers with a total of 925Watts/ch! Yes, I do like a bit of headroom! ;-)
How are you getting on with your Lowthers? I kept out of that one on the premiss that if you haven't anything good to say it's best to say nothing! On the other hand that was probably the first time that I found myself agreeing with bare2510. He is a bit of the storm trooper on that forum and I had a few run ins with him over the years.
Btw I go as Lex_Pigpooh over there (b.l.zeebub on Audio Asylum, O.F.F. on gearslutz).
I could not agree more. It's amazing how much my DMT type drivers (actually 3836's from CPA15) thrive on high powered amps. I tried the 845DHT route, and various flea amps and they just didn't work out despite the published specs of high sensitivity. Again, the HPD's benefit from the extra kick in the ****, too. I think they sounded very near their best on my Nakamichi STASIS amp. EL34 and EL84 PP was good, too.
I'm not having much love for the Lowthers;
In fact I contacted the guy I bought them from as he has agreed to buy them back. I mean no disrespect to the many Lowther people out there- just not my thing. I'm stuck with the Oris 150 horns, but that's no big deal- easy enough to resale. I was fortunate in that I got to test drive the drivers for free (essentially). I'm sticking with Tannoys exclusively, as they exhibit the wonderful qualities I have come to value so highly.Well, im staying valve so i guess ill have to just make do the best i can
My amp doesnt have any trouble driving these and they give the same volume at any given level as my wd25a's which were designed for valve amps.
Nothing will draw me back to SS
The surrounds are rubber and mint, the drivers are like new.
Few heavy scratches on the cabs though.
My stepdad bought them new, used them until the mid 80's then they sat in the spare room untill he died this year.
I doubt they will need new surrounds or cones any time soon but if i damage one then the 10" gold cones sound like a good idea.
My amp doesnt have any trouble driving these and they give the same volume at any given level as my wd25a's which were designed for valve amps.
Nothing will draw me back to SS
The surrounds are rubber and mint, the drivers are like new.
Few heavy scratches on the cabs though.
My stepdad bought them new, used them until the mid 80's then they sat in the spare room untill he died this year.
I doubt they will need new surrounds or cones any time soon but if i damage one then the 10" gold cones sound like a good idea.
Well, im staying valve so i guess ill have to just make do the best i can
Nothing will draw me back to SS
Agreed.
My experiences with SS amps are in the past. Despite having some qualities I admire, I'm hypnotized by tubes. I don't use SS amps anymore, either. When I did- the HPD's sounded quite good with them, though. Then again, HPD's are very forgiving and designed to take the abuse of a lackluster SS....
If you look at at the presteige series dual concentric speakers on Tannoys website they offer a range of 10" speakers from 105 to 65 Litres.
The reason for the partial t/s is this is the minimum relevant TS data that WinIsd Pro Alpha will accept. I found out later that a QTS of 0.233 gave a more accurate QMS Win isd calculates this as 2.198 Quoted QMS is 2.2
I did another sim in WinIsd. I Aimed for a -3db point of 40hz (I feel that 40Hz is a relevant frequency at least for rock and roll as 41Hz is the lowest note on a bass guitar!)
This calculated out to a 75 Litre box tuned to about 37 Hz (to avoid the dreaded one note bass hump) The yellow line on the sim emulates what the
Eaton cabinet acheives with the dimensions I found on line.
Intrestingly this seems to show a -3dB point of 60Hz not Tannoys Quoted 50Hz But Tannoy also quote a lower efficiency....
Personally I think this should work, especially given that you wont be pushing the drivers too hard with 15W amps. This would need a lot less investment than adding Crossovers -Amps and Subs. Especially given the quality drivers that would be needed to match the tannoys!
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Good plot, Xoc1! I was messing around with Win ISD and the HPD295A earlier, and I think you got a slightly better response. Goes to show how unimpressive the Eaton cabs are. When you try punching in volumes greater than 150L, the bass hump goes wild. However, those drivers benefit from horn loading which changes everything. You can achieve even better bass response in the back loading of a Cornetta (R-GRF style- not the bass reflex Japanese Cornetta). In those cabinets, a 10" gold achieves a -3db@35Hz and it's Very hard hitting!! If I were trying to achieve a "stand-alone" 10" Tannoy, this would be my cabinet of choice.
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I punched it in like he did (75l and 37Hz tuning) and got 1 port (round) @ 0.102M diameter, @ 0.160 length. That translates to 4 inch diameter, and 6.3 inches long.
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Fantastic.
Ive got 4 weeks till i move, if i get bored over christmas i could always just get the ply pre-cut and make new cabs in the living room.
Im all excited now
Just for reference, this is the 60l recomendation in another thread
JRKO
If were you...
I would use a 12"Wx28.375"Hx14.5"D enclosure which gives roughly a 56 liters net volume, having taken into account lost volume caused by transducer and port.
A 4" internal diameter ABS port whith a lenght of 9.875" long as shown on the drawing. This port is on the back panel and toward the bottom of enclosure. Chamfer as on the picture.
Box, which is filled by 33% of volume with fiberfill or fiberglass, is tuned to 35Hz, slightly overdamped with F6 of 35Hz, relative to 100Hz. Sensitivity is 94 dB...not bad.
Decent group-delay and port velocity.You can resize the enclosure but don't change the internal depth because of port and naturally keep volume constant. Keep fills tight on enclosure near port.
Luke
General tannoy wisdom says bigger is better though so i guess 75l it is then.
Ive got 4 weeks till i move, if i get bored over christmas i could always just get the ply pre-cut and make new cabs in the living room.
Im all excited now
Just for reference, this is the 60l recomendation in another thread
JRKO
If were you...
I would use a 12"Wx28.375"Hx14.5"D enclosure which gives roughly a 56 liters net volume, having taken into account lost volume caused by transducer and port.
A 4" internal diameter ABS port whith a lenght of 9.875" long as shown on the drawing. This port is on the back panel and toward the bottom of enclosure. Chamfer as on the picture.
Box, which is filled by 33% of volume with fiberfill or fiberglass, is tuned to 35Hz, slightly overdamped with F6 of 35Hz, relative to 100Hz. Sensitivity is 94 dB...not bad.
Decent group-delay and port velocity.You can resize the enclosure but don't change the internal depth because of port and naturally keep volume constant. Keep fills tight on enclosure near port.
Luke
General tannoy wisdom says bigger is better though so i guess 75l it is then.
Thats the size port I came up with. I would use 4" drainpipe for the port anyway which makes it easy to tune to a different length.
Personally I have a preference for putting the port at the rear.
Certainly there is quite a difference between 60 and 40hz as this is a half octave of bass notes.
The Plot also shows the bass sag that you get with the Tannoy Dual Concentric in a bigger cabinet. But many users seem to be happy with bass performance of the 15" Driver in a cabinet up to 300Litres.
I still have to finish my new cabinets for my Monitor Gold 15" drivers they are 250 litre boxes -Stand 4 feet tall and have 2 X 6" diameter ports.
Graeme I would recomend you to download WinISD and enter the parameters yourself. You can easily then adjust the capacity to match your build and adjust the port size to whatever you use. The software will then calculate the length of port to suit.
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