Why are there so few plans for them? I listen to music 100 percent (no HT). I actually don't enjoy music at "concert' levels.
I'm looking for a good budget 2 way with sub system to build. I like music as accurate as possible but enjoy what a good sub brings to the experience.
It's almost as if interest in subwoofers is influenced by the same sort of horsepower wars the auto industry has been engaged with. 310hp? 500watts? Sure, someone might love this once in a while. But I prefer my Civic overall. Where are the Civics in the diy subwoofer world? Highly precise and high value for what I need.
It seems a shame that the only sub plans I can find will more than triple the cost of a budget two way system.
Why are there so few projects completed and posted that come in under 150 dollars for highly accurate low spl use? There are many many high value 2 way mains projects on the web. But there are literally NO corresponding high value subwoofer designs.
Projects pretty much begin at about 300 dollars with the exception of high compromise computer system styled subs constructed with six inch drivers.
I've seen a number of 10 and 12 inch drivers in the 70 to 80 USD range and plate amps for about the same. But everyone dismisses this stuff as inadequate for reproducing the helicopter scenes in blackhawk down. Are there any well designed plans for audiophile use using budget priced drivers?
I'm looking for a good budget 2 way with sub system to build. I like music as accurate as possible but enjoy what a good sub brings to the experience.
It's almost as if interest in subwoofers is influenced by the same sort of horsepower wars the auto industry has been engaged with. 310hp? 500watts? Sure, someone might love this once in a while. But I prefer my Civic overall. Where are the Civics in the diy subwoofer world? Highly precise and high value for what I need.
It seems a shame that the only sub plans I can find will more than triple the cost of a budget two way system.
Why are there so few projects completed and posted that come in under 150 dollars for highly accurate low spl use? There are many many high value 2 way mains projects on the web. But there are literally NO corresponding high value subwoofer designs.
Projects pretty much begin at about 300 dollars with the exception of high compromise computer system styled subs constructed with six inch drivers.
I've seen a number of 10 and 12 inch drivers in the 70 to 80 USD range and plate amps for about the same. But everyone dismisses this stuff as inadequate for reproducing the helicopter scenes in blackhawk down. Are there any well designed plans for audiophile use using budget priced drivers?
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In that price range, it isn't always cost effective to roll your own.
Parts-Express.com: Dayton SUB-120 HT Series 12" 150 Watt Powered Subwoofer | CYBER09 subwoofer sub powered sub SUB-120 home theater 5.1 7.1 surround bass LFE Theaters110308 gifts1117
Paul
Wild Burro Audio Labs - DIY Full Range Speakers
Parts-Express.com: Dayton SUB-120 HT Series 12" 150 Watt Powered Subwoofer | CYBER09 subwoofer sub powered sub SUB-120 home theater 5.1 7.1 surround bass LFE Theaters110308 gifts1117
Paul
Wild Burro Audio Labs - DIY Full Range Speakers
Budget subs are out there, we just don't tend to talk about them as much, they aren't as exciting and don't impress anyone.
Hi, my name is Mike, and I use cheap subwoofers.
My current subs use drivers I paid less than $20 for. For the pair, including all the materials and a 300 watt amplifier, I do not have more than $200 invested (in a pair of bass horns). Before you get too excited, they aren't that great (my fault - next time I will design my own). My other subs have been similar in cost, the most expensive was a high-dollar car audio 12 in a sealed box (it was also the most underwhelming). Even that was less than $300, counting the amp (though I recycled it then and I am still using the same amp in another project years later). My current shop sub is a 15 dollar driver in a tapped horn made of scrap plywood.
As far as budget amplifier choices go - one of Jack Hidley's surplus plate amplifiers would be an excellent choice. It is generally regarded as better than units costing more than 3 times as much. I have purchased several, but have not had a chance to use one yet.
Jack has a number of surplus drivers too, though I am not sure if they would meet your criteria. The AR 12 is a nice driver, but requires a good-sized ported enclosure. Parts Express also has a bunch of buyout drivers that might work for you.
It sounds to me as if an appropriate driver in a simple sealed box would suit you fine. Not knowing much about your room size or musical taste, I'd suggest using nothing smaller than a 10" driver, there are LOTS of choices out there. Driver price and quality vary wildly, and to be honest, are often not correlative.
I hesitate to make any sort of driver or enclosure recommendation as I do not consider myself an audiophile. While I appreciate excellent sound, I listen to music and movies, not equipment, cables, or speakers. I listen to MP3's, not vinyl. I have also been known to occasionally turn things up very loud. What works for me may be entirely inappropriate for you.
Regardless, your question is not a complicated one. Designing a sealed speaker enclosure requires nothing more than a few basic driver parameters and a pocket calculator, though there are many websites that offer design calculators online. Ported boxes are also not too bad to design. More exotic enclosures (bandpass, horns, tapped horns, transmission lines and so forth) require more measurements and are less tolerant of driver variations.
Hi, my name is Mike, and I use cheap subwoofers.
My current subs use drivers I paid less than $20 for. For the pair, including all the materials and a 300 watt amplifier, I do not have more than $200 invested (in a pair of bass horns). Before you get too excited, they aren't that great (my fault - next time I will design my own). My other subs have been similar in cost, the most expensive was a high-dollar car audio 12 in a sealed box (it was also the most underwhelming). Even that was less than $300, counting the amp (though I recycled it then and I am still using the same amp in another project years later). My current shop sub is a 15 dollar driver in a tapped horn made of scrap plywood.
As far as budget amplifier choices go - one of Jack Hidley's surplus plate amplifiers would be an excellent choice. It is generally regarded as better than units costing more than 3 times as much. I have purchased several, but have not had a chance to use one yet.
Jack has a number of surplus drivers too, though I am not sure if they would meet your criteria. The AR 12 is a nice driver, but requires a good-sized ported enclosure. Parts Express also has a bunch of buyout drivers that might work for you.
It sounds to me as if an appropriate driver in a simple sealed box would suit you fine. Not knowing much about your room size or musical taste, I'd suggest using nothing smaller than a 10" driver, there are LOTS of choices out there. Driver price and quality vary wildly, and to be honest, are often not correlative.
I hesitate to make any sort of driver or enclosure recommendation as I do not consider myself an audiophile. While I appreciate excellent sound, I listen to music and movies, not equipment, cables, or speakers. I listen to MP3's, not vinyl. I have also been known to occasionally turn things up very loud. What works for me may be entirely inappropriate for you.
Regardless, your question is not a complicated one. Designing a sealed speaker enclosure requires nothing more than a few basic driver parameters and a pocket calculator, though there are many websites that offer design calculators online. Ported boxes are also not too bad to design. More exotic enclosures (bandpass, horns, tapped horns, transmission lines and so forth) require more measurements and are less tolerant of driver variations.
Another reason you might not see a lot of write ups on builds like this is that there isn't much to doing it.
I made one, and only bothered to make a post about it - not a whole thread. See here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...pport-single-driver-monitors.html#post1733731 It was basically just a question of buying the driver and a plate amp, and putting up a real simple box.
Since putting that together I have added to it a Reckhorn F-1, and it is much better than the cross in the plate amp. Reckhorn.com
Of course, the driver I used is no longer available. Seems like Reckhorn is out of their own XO, but CSS seems to still have some. I don't think the driver is real critical, as you said there are lots of 'em in the right price range. Getting a good active cross will help your musicality though.
EDIT: Oh, hey, look! I'm agreeing with LittleMike and he hadn't even posted yet when I started...!
I made one, and only bothered to make a post about it - not a whole thread. See here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...pport-single-driver-monitors.html#post1733731 It was basically just a question of buying the driver and a plate amp, and putting up a real simple box.
Since putting that together I have added to it a Reckhorn F-1, and it is much better than the cross in the plate amp. Reckhorn.com
Of course, the driver I used is no longer available. Seems like Reckhorn is out of their own XO, but CSS seems to still have some. I don't think the driver is real critical, as you said there are lots of 'em in the right price range. Getting a good active cross will help your musicality though.
EDIT: Oh, hey, look! I'm agreeing with LittleMike and he hadn't even posted yet when I started...!
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FWIW, if you can tolerate something big, then you can handily exceed the cheap PE stuff. Think tapped horn or big TL. With the former, you likely wouldn't need much of an amp. DIY wins at the other end of the spectrum too: if you need something with some decent output in a very small box. You can use the W8-740C or 55-2421 to do things that little premade subs of the same price can't do. But in the middle, I just don't know if it is worth it to build.
Paul
Wild Burro Audio Labs - DIY Full Range Speakers
Paul
Wild Burro Audio Labs - DIY Full Range Speakers
Hi Mike....
Tell us, How long have you been clean and sober? (no subwoofer sawdust in your hair)
* Step 1 - We admitted we were powerless over our addiction - that our lives had become unmanageable (just like our shops)
* Step 2 - Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity (or at least convince us to turn it down...)
* Step 3 - Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood God (hey, God rocks... why shouldn't we??)
* Step 4 - Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves (and the amount we have spent on plywood, corners, connectors, cables and the like.)
* Step 5 - Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs (translation -- actually telling your wife how much $$$ has been spent)
* Step 6 - Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character (burn the cabinets that fall short.)
* Step 7 - Humbly asked God to remove our shortcomings (and replace them with danley's.)
* Step 8 - Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all (by throwing the biggest loudest block party ever)
* Step 9 - Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others (hmm... back to that brown note thing.)
* Step 10 - Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it (yea, his system was better than mine.... time to build more !!!)
* Step 11 - Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood God, praying only for knowledge of God's will for us and the power to carry that out (through the power of crown and qsc, with the tremblings of dnb, and pipe organ played at 130db.)
* Step 12 - Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to other addicts, and to practice these principles in all our affairs (and to share the plans of the subs that have taken us there...)
I personally can't get past step one... "admitting I have a subwoofer problem....."
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FAR TOO LONG!!!!
Seems like all I do is push pixels anymore.....
Jim, I used to think you were the one with the problem. I do not want to even count the drivers I have squirreled away in the shop just waiting for me to have some quality time with my table saw. I'd hate to tell you how many neat ideas and designs I have in the queue waiting for me to test them. I have made considerable progress on the other projects, but the end of the road on those is a long way away, and the rest of life just keeps stacking stuff up.
Yeah - like my story is any different than anyone else's.
If you want to do a budget sub, don't do one, do three!
A really great deal out there driver-wise right now is the Peerless SLS10 closeout from Parts Express. Great motor design, pretty good suspension design. Unlike most drivers in its price range, it has a Faraday ring in the motor for greater inductance linearity, which doesn't matter if you're just trying to get synthesized explosions to shake stuff in your living room but does if you're trying to reproduce Mahler. It could be the driver in this subwoofer, and Genelec knows a thing or two about how to use Peerless woofers. (That one, I believe, uses 4x Peerless XLS12.) The SLS10 also has the advantage of clean response much higher than many drivers sold for subwoofers, good to about 1kHz. That means you can cross over your subs higher (120-150 Hz) for more effortless dynamics on upper bass peaks. Because the subs are scattered around the room, localization isn't a problem. (I run my system, which uses 1 15" sub and 2 12" subs on the floor, and one high-mounted 8" sub, up to 150 Hz. Admittedly, I also run my main full-range, because they're big enough to not need a highpass filter.)
For amps, put one of the aforementioned Foster one on each cabinet, for ~$100 total in parts per sub including shipping.
Why three? Because if you can place three subs around the room properly (look up Markus's summary of Dr. Geddes' posts on this issue) you will get much cleaner upper-bass response. And ultimately for music that's more important than anything. The three subwoofers outlined above, set up per Geddes (one in a corner, one far away, one above the room centerline) will give you better, more musical in-room bass performance than any one multi-kilobuck supersub.
A really great deal out there driver-wise right now is the Peerless SLS10 closeout from Parts Express. Great motor design, pretty good suspension design. Unlike most drivers in its price range, it has a Faraday ring in the motor for greater inductance linearity, which doesn't matter if you're just trying to get synthesized explosions to shake stuff in your living room but does if you're trying to reproduce Mahler. It could be the driver in this subwoofer, and Genelec knows a thing or two about how to use Peerless woofers. (That one, I believe, uses 4x Peerless XLS12.) The SLS10 also has the advantage of clean response much higher than many drivers sold for subwoofers, good to about 1kHz. That means you can cross over your subs higher (120-150 Hz) for more effortless dynamics on upper bass peaks. Because the subs are scattered around the room, localization isn't a problem. (I run my system, which uses 1 15" sub and 2 12" subs on the floor, and one high-mounted 8" sub, up to 150 Hz. Admittedly, I also run my main full-range, because they're big enough to not need a highpass filter.)
For amps, put one of the aforementioned Foster one on each cabinet, for ~$100 total in parts per sub including shipping.
Why three? Because if you can place three subs around the room properly (look up Markus's summary of Dr. Geddes' posts on this issue) you will get much cleaner upper-bass response. And ultimately for music that's more important than anything. The three subwoofers outlined above, set up per Geddes (one in a corner, one far away, one above the room centerline) will give you better, more musical in-room bass performance than any one multi-kilobuck supersub.
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Thanks for all of that. I was actually going to post this originally in the full range section but worried that it would just get moved here anyway. I suspect that there are many more members in that section with similar criteria.
Pure music at moderate listening levels.
Sure I'd love to make three subs. But that tosses aside one large point of my original post. I don't want three quarters of the money spent on this project to get eaten up in the sub section.
When I was younger I had a seventies era satellite/sub system. It was made by 3dAcoustics (later bought by Dalquist). The sub was a passive driven 10" driver. Satellites were peerless six inch paper with rubber surround and 1 inch peerless dome tweeter. I loved this system. It was used for music only, and when I'd A/B the system with and without the sub I was always astonished at what it contributed. It was passive, so driven alone at low volume it was scarcely even noticeable. At that same volume bringing it into and out of that produced by the mains made an astonishing difference in the quality of the "soundstage" (much as I hate that kind of lingo". This from the "B" speakers section of a 40wpc Rotel integrated.
Perhaps everyone should begin with a passive sub to get a better feel for what it is accomplishing. Then move on to 500watt amps to augment a home theater. I really do wonder about the horsepower wars I mentioned above simply for critical music listening.
How about that Peerless sls10 for 35usd with a Dayton SA100 100W Subwoofer Amplifier for 85usd? WinISD dimensions for a good solid sealed box? Am I getting closer? I'm not yet technically accomplished enough to glance at the TS parameters of a driver and judge its appropriateness for a given use. That's why I originally went hunting for the posted design of a high quality/low cost/low spl/subwoofer. None seem to exist. Bill Fitzmaurice has the T18 and the Table Tuba which, with 15usd plans and low cost driver choices, would seem a possibility. But I know little about horns and it's difficult to get very much broad concensus on how well they'd fit the needs I'm describing because comment on them is pretty rare on these forums and on the web.
I guess the Peerless 10" (though I had sights set on a 12 at least) with the 85dollar amp and sealed box are looking best so far.
Part of this is philosophical. I've always loved "bang for the buck" diy projects. Mechanical, electronic, musical, etc. There are a few 2 way designs on the web that I'm comtemplating ordering parts for that fall within about 150usd for the pair. (all my wood and workshop time is 'free')
Take the recession destroyer kit at PE for 119usd for example. Probably not going to be the final choice, but it's a good example.
If these never saw use in HT, never saw use in a dance party, never saw use reproducing front row concert levels... If these were generally used for high quality reproduction at low levels, but I still wanted that magical layer that a good sub undergirds the proceedings with...
while staying true to the high value represented by the latest round of 2way mains projects on the web...
I'm open to more suggestions
Pure music at moderate listening levels.
Sure I'd love to make three subs. But that tosses aside one large point of my original post. I don't want three quarters of the money spent on this project to get eaten up in the sub section.
When I was younger I had a seventies era satellite/sub system. It was made by 3dAcoustics (later bought by Dalquist). The sub was a passive driven 10" driver. Satellites were peerless six inch paper with rubber surround and 1 inch peerless dome tweeter. I loved this system. It was used for music only, and when I'd A/B the system with and without the sub I was always astonished at what it contributed. It was passive, so driven alone at low volume it was scarcely even noticeable. At that same volume bringing it into and out of that produced by the mains made an astonishing difference in the quality of the "soundstage" (much as I hate that kind of lingo". This from the "B" speakers section of a 40wpc Rotel integrated.
Perhaps everyone should begin with a passive sub to get a better feel for what it is accomplishing. Then move on to 500watt amps to augment a home theater. I really do wonder about the horsepower wars I mentioned above simply for critical music listening.
How about that Peerless sls10 for 35usd with a Dayton SA100 100W Subwoofer Amplifier for 85usd? WinISD dimensions for a good solid sealed box? Am I getting closer? I'm not yet technically accomplished enough to glance at the TS parameters of a driver and judge its appropriateness for a given use. That's why I originally went hunting for the posted design of a high quality/low cost/low spl/subwoofer. None seem to exist. Bill Fitzmaurice has the T18 and the Table Tuba which, with 15usd plans and low cost driver choices, would seem a possibility. But I know little about horns and it's difficult to get very much broad concensus on how well they'd fit the needs I'm describing because comment on them is pretty rare on these forums and on the web.
I guess the Peerless 10" (though I had sights set on a 12 at least) with the 85dollar amp and sealed box are looking best so far.
Part of this is philosophical. I've always loved "bang for the buck" diy projects. Mechanical, electronic, musical, etc. There are a few 2 way designs on the web that I'm comtemplating ordering parts for that fall within about 150usd for the pair. (all my wood and workshop time is 'free')
Take the recession destroyer kit at PE for 119usd for example. Probably not going to be the final choice, but it's a good example.
If these never saw use in HT, never saw use in a dance party, never saw use reproducing front row concert levels... If these were generally used for high quality reproduction at low levels, but I still wanted that magical layer that a good sub undergirds the proceedings with...
while staying true to the high value represented by the latest round of 2way mains projects on the web...
I'm open to more suggestions
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I did start with "passive" subs, and though I definitely saw an improvement over no sub at all, I wanted more.
Bass requires air to move. Moving air requires horsepower. If you're not planning to listen loud, this is a non issue for you. As indicated in an earlier post, I do tend to turn things up from time to time. 120 dB is not uncommon in my living room. I need the horsepower to achieve that. (back to that infrasonic addiction FlipC brought up...)
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/152947-infrasonic-addiction.html
When they work (proper driver in a proper design), horns are phenomenal. I have listened to a lot of different subs and I definitely prefer the sound of horns over direct radiators. With a proper design, tapped horns are lots of fun too, nearly all of the qualities I like in a bass horn but 1/4 the size of a typical horn design. Properly done bandpass boxes are also cool. As these types of enclosures are more complicated than a simple sealed or ported box, they are less tolerant of driver variations and errors in construction. When they go wrong, it is obvious.
I have no direct experience with either the Table Tuba or the T18, but I have generally heard good things about both. I have built the Autotuba and T24. For music only, consider the T18, and consider making a pair, it does not sound like you need the additional octave of extension offered by the Table Tuba. Both are easy builds and only require basic tools. Bill's plans are certainly adequate if you understand the basics of speaker construction. Honestly, the construction tips he provides in his plan sets are worth the cost of the plans if you are not an accomplished horn builder.
The MCM 55-2421 driver suggested for those cabinets is remarkable driver in a horn or bandpass enclosure, jbell has several designs for horn-loaded enclosures for this driver posted elsewhere on diyaudio. (This driver is another bang for the buck winner - they are a $25 driver when on sale - like currently) My next sub project will be either a tapped horn or a front-loaded horn for some of these drivers.
The Peerless driver you mentioned seems to be a very nice driver for the $. It models well in sealed boxes, 4th order bandpass boxes, and a simple tapped horn. Of the more complicated boxes, the bandpass seems to be the winner, as it is 1/4 the size of the tapped horn and plays as low (-3 dB @ 36 Hz), though the tapped horn is at least 5 dB more efficient.
Simple parameters for the enclosures discussed above:
Sealed box: 50L
4th Bandpass:
Rear = 30 L
Front = 20 L
Front tuned to 65 Hz, 1X 10.2 cm (4") X 21 cm port
Simple tapped horn (with a guess for Sd):
ID=23.40
Ang=2.0 x Pi
Eg=2.83
Rg=0.00
Fta=1.65
S1=208.00
S2=254.64
Con=30.00
F12=0.00
S2=254.64
S3=1140.47
Con=348.10
F23=0.00
S3=1140.47
S4=1305.00
Con=46.00
F34=0.00
S4=0.00
S5=0.00
L45=0.00
F45=0.00
Sd=346.00
Bl=10.32
Cms=4.28E-04
Rms=3.69
Mmd=41.96
Le=2.10
Re=6.70
TH=1
Vrc=0.00
Lrc=0.00
Ap1=0.00
Lpt=0.00
Vtc=0.00
Atc=0.00
Com=Peerless SLS 10 Tapped Horn
The Foster amp mentioned earlier is nicer and less than half the cost of the Dayton.
Thank you very much for all of that. I believe I'm getting closer on this.
Cal, I tend to move frequently. My music space is typically an 'average' living room with typical dimensions and ceiling heights.
15 x 20 or so.
Yes, that Foster amp looks right. What about the 30 dollar AR12 and the 60 dollar Jensen15 cast frame woofers still listed at the NHT site? Better than the Peerless for this use? Or impossible to know without the TS parameters at hand?
Would love to get into experimentation with horns at some point, but for the time being I'd like to arrive at a low spl, high quality, low cost, sealed box for music only. Perhaps the Foster and the AR12 for 65 bucks? LIke I said, my wood and shop time are pretty much freebies.
And as a postscript... I've done a fair bit of reading but am still unclear on basic elements of sub sound level integration. I'm a bit of a minimalist and tend to use two channel integrated 70s/80s era amps without any dedicated sub circuitry. If the plate sub amp has a volume control (as does the foster) how to do you set it to match the mains? I'm guessing that a test tone at some point where the sub and mains overlap might be burned onto a test CD, played through the mains, and then set at a specific level using the volume control on the amp and my Radio Shack sound level meter at approximately the place I would be listening. Then running that tone through the subwoofer alone with the integrated at the same volume level, and then using the volume level on the plate amp to match the spl reading on the level meter.
Is that about right?
Cal, I tend to move frequently. My music space is typically an 'average' living room with typical dimensions and ceiling heights.
15 x 20 or so.
Yes, that Foster amp looks right. What about the 30 dollar AR12 and the 60 dollar Jensen15 cast frame woofers still listed at the NHT site? Better than the Peerless for this use? Or impossible to know without the TS parameters at hand?
Would love to get into experimentation with horns at some point, but for the time being I'd like to arrive at a low spl, high quality, low cost, sealed box for music only. Perhaps the Foster and the AR12 for 65 bucks? LIke I said, my wood and shop time are pretty much freebies.
And as a postscript... I've done a fair bit of reading but am still unclear on basic elements of sub sound level integration. I'm a bit of a minimalist and tend to use two channel integrated 70s/80s era amps without any dedicated sub circuitry. If the plate sub amp has a volume control (as does the foster) how to do you set it to match the mains? I'm guessing that a test tone at some point where the sub and mains overlap might be burned onto a test CD, played through the mains, and then set at a specific level using the volume control on the amp and my Radio Shack sound level meter at approximately the place I would be listening. Then running that tone through the subwoofer alone with the integrated at the same volume level, and then using the volume level on the plate amp to match the spl reading on the level meter.
Is that about right?
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Here are some other alternatives Parts Express have on sale the Dahlquist 6.5 inch sub, 3 of those in a 2 ft^3 enclosure with a 3 inch port will net you over 108 db with a small 100 watt amp
or you could look at Meniscus Audio, they have the Polk 10 inch sub driver on sale as well as the Polk 12 inch sub driver for a few dollars more
either of these solutions coupled with a little shop time and a small plate amp will get you a really decent musical sub for not a lot of $$$s
or you could look at Meniscus Audio, they have the Polk 10 inch sub driver on sale as well as the Polk 12 inch sub driver for a few dollars more
either of these solutions coupled with a little shop time and a small plate amp will get you a really decent musical sub for not a lot of $$$s
The AR12 is a nice driver, T/S parameters are available. I just looked at that driver for a friend, I seem to remember that a 3 cubic-foot ported enclosure works well.
You can hook that Foster amp up two ways - line level or speaker level. I prefer line level, as the crossover can be used to cut the bass to the mains, but that is just my opinion.
While I have some nice measuring gear, I ultimately set crossovers and levels by ear. If it sounds right to me, it is right. The meter helps get me in the ballpark, but there is usually some tweaking. Room placement is also a key - do not be afraid to move things around.
You can hook that Foster amp up two ways - line level or speaker level. I prefer line level, as the crossover can be used to cut the bass to the mains, but that is just my opinion.
While I have some nice measuring gear, I ultimately set crossovers and levels by ear. If it sounds right to me, it is right. The meter helps get me in the ballpark, but there is usually some tweaking. Room placement is also a key - do not be afraid to move things around.
I guess you have to decide if money or fidelity of reproduction is more important. In the upper bass, the room plays a dominant role, so you have to work with the room. Assuming a typically sized domestic living room, yes it is possible to get decent bass performance - at one teeny-tiny listening area! - with one sub and lots of EQ. It is possible to get excellent bass performance - over a large area - with three subs properly placed and no EQ. Given that right now those two extra subs cost less than any suitable EQ, three subs sounds like a no-brainer to me.
Besides, once you get a decent bass foundation down, you can upgrade your mains and keep the bass section. So while bass may have been a high initial outlay, it becomes a smaller part of the total system cost.
And you can always save money on the commodity parts in the system, the digital source, preamp+amp/receiver. They don't sound any different from one another anyway.
That is exactly what a bass subsystem is supposed to do - not be noticed until it's disconnected, and then one wonders why the soundstage's collapsed.
Just going on specs the Foster amps look better. I've not used either. You could also use a multichannel "home theater" amp, if you find one cheaply on craigslist/audiogon/eBay. As for dimensions, I'd probably go with about 2 cubic feet, stuffed. F3 will be a little high, but room gain and/or EQ will take care of that. As for dimensions, they should be whatever best fits your space. All three of them can be different dimensions outside.
Subs are fairly easy to do cheaply. Mains are not. The parts for good ones just cost too much. One thing you could do, that would be close to 150usd for the pair, is build these minispeakers and put one powered sub (the SLS10-Foster combo works well) underneath each of them, with a passive high-pass on the minispeaker's woofer. (Think "better-sounding Aerial 10T.") Then add 2-3 subs around the room, and that's a serious music-lover's system.
(I base the choice of minispeaker based on what I heard at a recent DIY speakers gathering. Especially in the treble, this little speaker sounded better than much more expensive ones. I don't generally like the sound of conventional cone+flush-mounted dome speakers, but this one worked. Perhaps because the power response errors at the bottom of the tweeter's passband were either not as glaring as in other speakers, or they occur higher up.)
PS: As for that AR-12, it's a woofer designed to work with dome midranges more than a subwoofer. So it's efficient, with a very strong motor (Qes of 0.216), but limited in throw (5mm xmax). If you want to use it, it would make more sense as the woofer in the "better-sounding Aerial 10T" budget main speaker listed above. (With additional subwoofers.) The Jensen 15 looks like an interesting driver, and should be capable of better bass performance than the other options listed because it has more volume displacement. BUT, it requires significant EQ to extend the response downwards. And the Polk drivers are not in the same league as the Peerless SLS.
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So on balance,
the whole thread taken into consideration,
a compromise arrived at in view of everyone's input regarding my aims,
it's two NHT Foster amps and a pair of the peerless 10 inchers listed from PE assembled into a pair of sealed subs that, discounting the cost of wood and labor (since I already mentioned that twice now anyway) will bring me in under 150 for pretty much the most B for the B that can be had for low level, pure and simple, subterranean tonal satisfaction.
Am I close yet?
I'd love to enter the credit card numbers tonight and hit 'send'.
the whole thread taken into consideration,
a compromise arrived at in view of everyone's input regarding my aims,
it's two NHT Foster amps and a pair of the peerless 10 inchers listed from PE assembled into a pair of sealed subs that, discounting the cost of wood and labor (since I already mentioned that twice now anyway) will bring me in under 150 for pretty much the most B for the B that can be had for low level, pure and simple, subterranean tonal satisfaction.
Am I close yet?
I'd love to enter the credit card numbers tonight and hit 'send'.
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Great thread!
I too would like to build some subs for MUSIC, not HT. I have one sub that I use with a pair of Fostex FE127 Fonkens. It's nothing fancy; it's an RCA 10" powered sub (hold the laughter please) that came with a set of speakers I purchased several years ago- it does a great job as far as I'm concerned. However, I would like to run a sub with each of my Fonkens.
Has anyone heard the Triska Parts Express DIY Project or the Cerberus?
I have two 6.5" (400-1373) and two 10" (400-1349) Radio Shack sub drivers I got in a trade. Any ideas if these would work with the Foster amp on the NHT site?
Thanks,
Mike
I too would like to build some subs for MUSIC, not HT. I have one sub that I use with a pair of Fostex FE127 Fonkens. It's nothing fancy; it's an RCA 10" powered sub (hold the laughter please) that came with a set of speakers I purchased several years ago- it does a great job as far as I'm concerned. However, I would like to run a sub with each of my Fonkens.
Has anyone heard the Triska Parts Express DIY Project or the Cerberus?
I have two 6.5" (400-1373) and two 10" (400-1349) Radio Shack sub drivers I got in a trade. Any ideas if these would work with the Foster amp on the NHT site?
Thanks,
Mike
I like the cut of your jib, sir. Here's something to note: Make a closed box, and you'll be looking at roll-off considerably above the drivers Fs. This driver doesn't have a real low Fs to start with.
I plugged the driver into WinISD and here's what it said: Closed box - F3 at 50 hz, rolloff starting around 100, in a 3.3 ft^3 box.
50 hz is not bad for a medium or medium-small speaker, but you might consider ported in this case. It'll get you to a F3 of 24 hz. That'd take a 6 ft^3 box, but you could sacrifice some extension to get a smaller box. I'm not sure what your size constraints are.
Unless that plate amp has some bass boost, I don't recall...
I plugged the driver into WinISD and here's what it said: Closed box - F3 at 50 hz, rolloff starting around 100, in a 3.3 ft^3 box.
50 hz is not bad for a medium or medium-small speaker, but you might consider ported in this case. It'll get you to a F3 of 24 hz. That'd take a 6 ft^3 box, but you could sacrifice some extension to get a smaller box. I'm not sure what your size constraints are.
Unless that plate amp has some bass boost, I don't recall...
Thanks for the input. Size constraints are somewhat limiting, but with some imagination... maybe the sub box could be a stand for the Fonkens.
Maybe I'll just look into the Cerberus or Triskas. Then again, maybe a Foster amp and one of the drivers mentioned in this thread.
Hmmm...???
How's the weather in MN??? It was below zero in Bismarck this morning.
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