Demonstrations of Auditory Illusions
This is just the top of the iceberg, but the in depth study, you will have to do yourself.
To keep it simple:
It has been proven on many occasions, that the brain will go to great length, to make you feel superior. This is one of the main tasks of the brain actually, basicly to keep you happy.
This goes for every single one of us, even you Curly, like it or not.
Magura
Last edited:
About time you weighed in SY
I think you might be generalizing to a degree (about all subjectivists), but I do remember such from the wire directionality thread a few years ago (that one was too much even for a fence sitter like me). Your biggest gripe appears to be with arrogance, which is fair enough, but this is not something that is restricted to the subjective camp...
As an example (and I don't think this will open a cans of worms) I still see people (claiming to be EE's) posting telling people that they could not possibly hear a difference due to the fact that they changed to a different capacitor type, when studies By John Curl, Walt Jung, Richard Marsh and others have clearly demonstrated that there are very real distortions which vary widely depending on the dialectrics used. I don't pretend to fully understand the intracacies of when they will and will not make an audible difference, but I think it is pretty well accepted these days that capacitors with a high DA (when used in the signal path) are detrimental to high quality audio, and that in general one should use film caps in preference to electrolytic, and then once moving onto film, polyester should be avoided if at all practical.
The problem is that Not All have read those studies, so the ones who say they can hear a difference (not saying that in all cases they really can) may not know why, and the ones telling them it is a load of cods wallop, a capcitor is a capacitor (at the same time saying they are an EE with X thousand years of experience) are ignorant (and probably arogant).
So you end up with some poor soul who thinks they hear a difference (and probably does) but has no way of proving it, arguing with someone who is probably very knowlegable, (but maybe not as knowlegeable as they think they are) and a deteriorating situation. In reality if both read one of the articles they might just realise that the argument is pointless...
I just used this example because I think it summs up my feelings on the matter. Proof of something is a good thing, but lack of proof doesn't mean it doesn't exist
It could simply be that the proof has not yet been discovered (or has been but is not known to either party) It is fine to say you don't believe something exists without proof, however I would conjecture than often the more arogant stance of "because you can't prove this, it doesn't exist" is put forward. Me personally, I struggle to hear the difference between my 100W mosfet amp and my Gainclone, I think I hear a difference, but I'm not 100% convinced. Maybe when I finish my speakers that will change. I did measure a difference between the two (after I thought I heard one), the 100W was down about .2db at 10K and 0.4db at 20k and the gainclone is essentially flat to 20K but I was skeptical whether this was the "difference" I was "hearing".
Tony.
It has been proven on many occasions, that the brain will go to great length, to make you feel superior. This is one of the main tasks of the brain actually, basicly to keep you happy.
Magura
Then I am a happy fellow
If I can replicate the same conclusions over and over again, I have to trust what I hear. If I am a flawed person, I am in your eyes. I have come to trust what I hear, when I can replicate the same results over and over again.
If this were me just trying to please myself, why do so many components fail to meet my criteria? Not everything sounds the same or handles all aspects of the music the same. Some may have better imaging capabilities, but suffer in tonal balance. Others may sound perfect in terms of tone and pitch, but seriously lacking in imaging and soundstaging abilities. I look for the components that give me the best of all of the factors that I am looking for in my system. I tailor the final sound to what I want it to sound like, with cables, capacitors, resistors and different tube manufacturers, which for me is closer to the sound of unamplified music thru my system.
Last edited:
I've always been a proponent of double blind testing, but them's fighting words on this forum, and best avoided.
It'd be interesting, though, to do a followup: if a person is shown, through ABX testing or similar, that they can't actually tell the difference between component A and B, will their preference change after the test? Will it always be the opposite? Will it settle at random, or on the cheapest, or on the one they liked in the first place, "just in case they were right"?
It'd be interesting, though, to do a followup: if a person is shown, through ABX testing or similar, that they can't actually tell the difference between component A and B, will their preference change after the test? Will it always be the opposite? Will it settle at random, or on the cheapest, or on the one they liked in the first place, "just in case they were right"?
Wrong example. I don't think anybody, EE or not, ever said "all caps sound the same" or "there are no differences between various dielectrics".
What was rightfully said was that:
a) Between those results you quoted and today is a 40 years gap. Technology advances and so are materials.
b) Placing a Kibosh on all (e.g.) ceramic capacitors only because you once used the wrong type is stupid.
c) Certain capacitor models (like the praised mica) are actualy proven by measurements as being worse than good quality ceramics and guess what, precisely in the DA department.
d) Using high quality film caps for power supply decoupling is a waste of money and an insult to any EE intelligence. Add 40-60dB PSRR to the already small DA and you can start counting the "bad" electrons flowing through.
e) Electrolytics technology advance significantly over the last forty years. What we have today is orders of magnitude better than what was available 40 years ago.
f) Certain phenomena (like DA) are essentially nonlinear. DA was never proven as a source of small signal "linear distortions".
g) Spending $100 on an "audio cap" is as stupid as you can get. There's nothing that could justify that kind of money, other than vanity, snobbery or simply an oversized wallet.
h) What's really important is to select the proper cap for the job. Recommending a one size fits all solution (like styroflex) is a waste of money.
I'll stop here, the list is much longer.
And you have heard these caps and decided this to be true? I have not heard all esoteric Teflon caps(I would imagine that these are what you are referring to given the pricing), but the V-Cap Teflons are better than any other Teflons that I have listened to in my system, when used a coupling capacitors. They are more transparent, better over all tonal balance and just allow more information thru vs other Teflons that I have tried.
There is more to sound than just frequency response. I realize that you do not hold this as a truth, but capacitors are different and they all sound somewhat different. Maybe it is resonances that are not accounted for other than just the dielectric. Buy what works for you in your system and meets your needs for sound quality.
The anatomy of a ban
You complained about examples on how you can get bin time? Here's an example:
1. One of the forum's sacred cows was on a collision course with the first principles. For over a week, nobody seem to be able to persuade the cow to reconcilliate his milk with the last 100 years of physics, starting with lord Kelvin and ending with Claude Shannon. The same arguments were thrown again, and again, and again, to no avail. Now, the options were:
a) Stop posting and forget about.
b) Invoke Godwin's Law and give up.
c) Continue posting ad nauseum, with zero added value.
d) Have some fun.
e) ?
Chosing d) above, a member posted a comment:
This brought a one week bin time in the next 5 minutes, post removed and an ugly ex-cathedra email "This is unacceptable behaviour, yada, yada, yada".
That phrase is commonly used all over the Internet, to define an useless debate with a partner that was clearly in a "argumentum ad nauseam" loop, and the discussion was already well beyond any logical reasoning.
Is it right to consider the bin time was in fact intended to protect the "sacred cow" bull chips, rather than protecting the sensitive skins and eyes of the forum members from a gross abuse?
You complained about examples on how you can get bin time? Here's an example:
1. One of the forum's sacred cows was on a collision course with the first principles. For over a week, nobody seem to be able to persuade the cow to reconcilliate his milk with the last 100 years of physics, starting with lord Kelvin and ending with Claude Shannon. The same arguments were thrown again, and again, and again, to no avail. Now, the options were:
a) Stop posting and forget about.
b) Invoke Godwin's Law and give up.
c) Continue posting ad nauseum, with zero added value.
d) Have some fun.
e) ?
Chosing d) above, a member posted a comment:
from memory said:
This brought a one week bin time in the next 5 minutes, post removed and an ugly ex-cathedra email "This is unacceptable behaviour, yada, yada, yada".
That phrase is commonly used all over the Internet, to define an useless debate with a partner that was clearly in a "argumentum ad nauseam" loop, and the discussion was already well beyond any logical reasoning.
Is it right to consider the bin time was in fact intended to protect the "sacred cow" bull chips, rather than protecting the sensitive skins and eyes of the forum members from a gross abuse?
Not so hard SY. That's my M.O. for sure. I usually believe what I hear, but am not dogmatic about it if I can't prove it. Conversely, there have been many times I've measured stuff that should matter, but I don't hear it. Not shy about that either.
So not everyone is dogmatic. Absolutely not everyone I tell you - and that's for sure! (philistine!)
And I thought it was "Make it so, sharp one."
I guess I'm glad I don't watch shows like Star Trek.
Syn, not sure why you post a quote like that but you sure do come across as uneducated and uncaring when you do. The Special Olympics has nothing to do with individuals with physical disabilities. I don't care how pompous you feel you have the right to be in making your point but to include that as part of your argument is about as low as it gets IMO. I thought of you as a well educated and discerning man. I now believe that assumption was wrong.
I have a suggestion. Rather than ride the high and mighty why don't you just ignore the posts that disagree with your opinions and report the ones that cross forum lines?
That quote is disgusting.
Syn, not sure why you post a quote like that but you sure do come across as uneducated and uncaring when you do. The Special Olympics has nothing to do with individuals with physical disabilities. I don't care how pompous you feel you have the right to be in making your point but to include that as part of your argument is about as low as it gets IMO. I thought of you as a well educated and discerning man. I now believe that assumption was wrong.
I have a suggestion. Rather than ride the high and mighty why don't you just ignore the posts that disagree with your opinions and report the ones that cross forum lines?
That quote is disgusting.
Q.E.D. There's a rift here that I don't think it will ever be covered. Stay with your politically correct crowd, I'm not of that breed.
You could at least use Larry Page's resources and find out how often is that expression used all over, on message boards not pretending to be monasteries.
And that's about it...
P.S. Speaking about the efficiency of reporting posts, one week later, that group buy thread is still on the Solid State forum first page, instead of being moved to the designated forum, intended for such topics. There must be a very good reason for that, isn't it?
Last edited:
+1
Don't know why you're surprised. He hasn't shown yet the littlest regard for another person's feelings; all he seems to care is about his self-righteousness. However I don't think it has anything to do with his education. I've met famous world researchers who could safely qualify for the biggest jerk on earth contest. It's more about egotism, emotional handicap, and other things that are better left unsaid. At some point they become a sorry sight, when the big thumb of life squashes the wind out of them. No amount of moderation will get them off their high horse.
So, syn08, if you get to see this and still wonder what's wrong with the forum, then go look in the mirror.
Last edited:
- Status
- Not open for further replies.