Earl, theres no doubt about your priorities, that they are valid in the real world, and that you keep a firm grip on them
But you will never get beyond the production aspect
No need to constantly defend you designs principles
We cant all do it your way, even if it would make sense
Your input is surely of high value, but this is not about Geddes design
I wont deny that I would look in the direction of LeClech, and the way his "fans" realise their ideas
I dont know why you call it science fiction
Might to a large degree be an illusion, but certainly quite realsitic
But dont forget this is also about dreams and having fun
100% science is simply too boring
I also know "perfect" people who always only do what makes sense, and they are the most boring people I know
And in the end they are only cheating themselves, having a boring life
Dont forget this is way more than just listening to music
Have fun
But you will never get beyond the production aspect
No need to constantly defend you designs principles
We cant all do it your way, even if it would make sense
Your input is surely of high value, but this is not about Geddes design
I wont deny that I would look in the direction of LeClech, and the way his "fans" realise their ideas
I dont know why you call it science fiction
Might to a large degree be an illusion, but certainly quite realsitic
But dont forget this is also about dreams and having fun
100% science is simply too boring
I also know "perfect" people who always only do what makes sense, and they are the most boring people I know
And in the end they are only cheating themselves, having a boring life
Dont forget this is way more than just listening to music
Have fun
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Why not? Using speakers with constant (high) directivity is probably the easiest way to get decent sound in any living room.
Best, Markus
Markus, you scare me now
There are other more apropriate Geddes threads fore that
Whatever, I hate when a debate like this ends up being "commercial"
Even so, I was the first to suggest that Earl should do a kit, and that this forum would be his best friend
And Im glad it really happened
I admit, I said the same thing to the AE guys
What I didnt expect was that they left this forum completely
Obviously they only had interest in "advertising"
But who can blame them, but still disappointing
Earl, I have no doubt that you are more than that, but still holds both
A difficult balance, no point in denying it
I dont know why this subject is a complete nono
Earl, please dont let this stop you, keep on debating
Subject is still "pro drivers vs hifi drivers, pros and cons"
There are other more apropriate Geddes threads fore that
Whatever, I hate when a debate like this ends up being "commercial"
Even so, I was the first to suggest that Earl should do a kit, and that this forum would be his best friend
And Im glad it really happened
I admit, I said the same thing to the AE guys
What I didnt expect was that they left this forum completely
Obviously they only had interest in "advertising"
But who can blame them, but still disappointing
Earl, I have no doubt that you are more than that, but still holds both
A difficult balance, no point in denying it
I dont know why this subject is a complete nono
Earl, please dont let this stop you, keep on debating
Subject is still "pro drivers vs hifi drivers, pros and cons"
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Not to me its not
You don't know me at all. "Boring" is not what I would call my life. In fact, I am set well enough that I can do pretty much what I want. I don't want to compromise on my principles or my designs - so I don't. Enough people appreciate real value and quality, the rest, well, I think that it's them you should be lecturing, not me.
I think that they may have left town completely
I don't deny it, but I'm also not going to appologize for it. I have strong views on audio, I see things completely different than most. I always have, even well before I started making speakers and just did research. The fact that my philosophy and my products are so tightly aligned is not a coincidence, nor is it marketing. It's simply the "World According to Earl". When you come to chuch, expect to hear the Gospel.
I'm not trying to hyjack the thread, I've tried to stay on topic and not diverted any more than necessary. But if my designs make my point then I'll use them. I'm not going to run from the thread rather than promote my own work.
I'm sure if I go over the line the moderators will say something.
I might advertise a solution but not a certain loudspeaker. Any speaker with constant (high) directivity is adequate, e.g. Klein + Hummel (now Sennheiser and Neumann) has some good loudspeakers. Probably even Zilch's EconoWave will fit the bill.
Best, Markus
Tinitus has a point, that this hobby is in part about dreams and having fun. But it is important to realise that there is a difference between talking about ideals and having to live with real world compromises.
The most common compromise is money. Given a limited budget, I will always buy a speaker where the money has been spent on making the range 40 to 10 KHz the best it can be - frequency and phase, directivity, distortion - and only housekeeping applied outside that range (no huge resonances, for example). This speaker will almost certainly sound better than one where a significant part of the cost has been spent on extending the range, especially upwards. If Earl's designs do 40 Hz to 10 KHz better than other, more extended range designs in the same price range, then they go to the top of the list.
The Rogers LS3/5A is an example of a speaker where people actually paid a premium to get superb performance in the critical (mid) range at the cost of the extremes.
The most common compromise is money. Given a limited budget, I will always buy a speaker where the money has been spent on making the range 40 to 10 KHz the best it can be - frequency and phase, directivity, distortion - and only housekeeping applied outside that range (no huge resonances, for example). This speaker will almost certainly sound better than one where a significant part of the cost has been spent on extending the range, especially upwards. If Earl's designs do 40 Hz to 10 KHz better than other, more extended range designs in the same price range, then they go to the top of the list.
The Rogers LS3/5A is an example of a speaker where people actually paid a premium to get superb performance in the critical (mid) range at the cost of the extremes.
You may not even have mr Geddes on your side with that one
Im not really arguing with anything you say
Im just stirring the pot a bit, because I hate narrow minded uniformity
And I hate bullying
I dont care who is wrong or right
And yeah, I often shoot my own foot doing it
But why mention money at all
Will a big oval LeCleach horn be more expencive
Not to me it wont
But if you need to buy it, probably
It wont need more expencive drivers either
Its just a lot of work
If I have learned anything from Earl Geddes, and the debate and interest he started, its that you cant just go buy any waveguide and expect it to work properly
Im not able to prove how or why, but if you think its all about directivity, I would say its a useless simplification and completely misunderstood
Mind you, Im not saying the opposite
Ofcourse directivity matter, but it doesnt work on its own
And its not the only "design principle" that has positive effect
As a "funny" side remark, would you use a long throw horn with the ultimate directivity fore close up listening home use
I suppose not
btw, I understand when Earl get a bit offended when people think its just to go buy a waveguide and a big woofer, and thats it
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Do I need to?
I do because all these purely technical devices that cramp my room have just one purpose: accurate sound reproduction. If that's narrow minded for you then be it.
Not sure who or what exactly you're trying to address with the rest of your posting.
Best, Markus
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Oh, Im passed that, thank god, but good luck
Accurate, what is that anyway
But dont you think its a bit boring to end every speaker debate with saying " just buy a Gedlee and move on"
Quite honestly, that really is what you are saying
And maybe forget to say, "oh remember at least 4-5 subs, and electronics"
Sorry Earl, no pun intended
Cheap subs, no way
Expencive subs, no way
Then what, when I wont do with less than 30hz
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Thanks. Hopefully I will never sound that frustrated.
I didn't say so but if it helps people listening and enjoying music instead of listening and enjoying their equipment - what's wrong with that?
Best, Markus
Oh, Im not frustrated
Maybe just a bit
Too little time left
Anything that helps people to enjoy music is worth the effort, I agree
But I didnt know that was the purpos of this thread
We're using purely technical devices to record sounds so it's pretty easy to describe what accurate sound reproduction is. It's a technical process. Nothing magic. The magic is in music.
Best, Markus
I dont know, but theres no answering to that question that will help much
Its not that simple
To me its just a simple technical question that can never be answered properly
Words and numbers doesnt do it
Persistent fanatics might get the last word
And those who can throw a lot of technical stuff
Or relate to advanced science noone understands
To me thats just dangerous deception
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This is a bit OT but there is a point to it:
It sounded good because
1. The case was stiff and didn't vibrate much
2. The edges were rounded so less diffraction at higher SPLs
3. The speaker had a limited range and rolled off quickly
4. The hf filter stopped the hf noise from poor radio reception masking musical information.
5. I don't know, but I suspect it had a dip in the audio around 3 - 5 kHz and so was was really kind to me where my hearing is sensitive.
It wasn't a perfect reproducer but it was at, or perhaps better, than "good enough" - optimal for the restraints imposed by cost and format.
That's the point, "optimal for the restraints imposed by cost and format."
In the case of pro drivers the original topic as I understand it could be expressed "can pro drivers be optimally applied for audiophile use? And, if so, then do they provide a better value than audiophile drivers?"
Answering "yes" to the first question leads to "yes" for the second, doesn't it?
In the 1970's and 80's I owned a tiny portable about size of cheap paperback book and it sounded quite good even playing classical music. It was a Toshiba, i believe, and it had a metal case, the edges were rounded off and most important, it had a switchable hf filter.
It sounded good because
1. The case was stiff and didn't vibrate much
2. The edges were rounded so less diffraction at higher SPLs
3. The speaker had a limited range and rolled off quickly
4. The hf filter stopped the hf noise from poor radio reception masking musical information.
5. I don't know, but I suspect it had a dip in the audio around 3 - 5 kHz and so was was really kind to me where my hearing is sensitive.
It wasn't a perfect reproducer but it was at, or perhaps better, than "good enough" - optimal for the restraints imposed by cost and format.
That's the point, "optimal for the restraints imposed by cost and format."
In the case of pro drivers the original topic as I understand it could be expressed "can pro drivers be optimally applied for audiophile use? And, if so, then do they provide a better value than audiophile drivers?"
Answering "yes" to the first question leads to "yes" for the second, doesn't it?
Hi Andre,
You would be absolutely right.. 😀 The comments apply to my system specifically of course, but I think I have got most of the other distortion mechanisms under control at this point at least wrt to my particular expectations, which of course are a moving target. Ironic that as my hearing gets worse (as it does as anyone ages) I understand better what is important to me, it is something short of a miracle that I have sufficient hearing acuity left to tell. I guess the brain does some pretty good signal processing. 😛
I haven't found that entirely true, afterall you have to feed that tweeter a clean signal to begin with, and what I have seen out of some not so cheap CD players and DACs at 10kHz would not qualify - hence my comments. Higher bit rate 24 bit pcm and SACD can be quite good. Hint: it is nice when your dac can reproduce an undistorted sinewave at 10kHz - a function of (over)sampling algorithm, sample rate, dsp design, and post reconstruction filters.. (err what's that.. 😛😛😛)
My apologies Dr. Geddes - I did not intend to sound as though I was questioning your honesty. My point was merely that there is evidence to suggest bias exists on both sides.
Thanks - I did not take it as questioning my honesty, but I often hear people state that my opinions are what they are because thats what my product does - a bias if you will. To me that's not the case at all. My speakers are the way they are because after a long time studying the problem I decided what they should do and I do that. My opinions did not follow my products, my products followed my opinions. This should be completely obvious since my publications on most of this were done decades (in most cases) before I made a product. My products are about 5 years old, but my research is almost fourty-five years old.
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