I presume you refer to Marcus76 here. I have had a DTS decoder for years, not to mention my DVDA & SACD capable DVD players. Then there's my BD player.
I take it that includes definition as well
But sure, if definition is lacking louder SPL usually helps getting in some of the excitement, and some beer as well
But it only lasts until ears and brain give in, turning down hearing sensitivity, or when drinking supply runs out
Seriously I think that largely holds true when you push the average Spl level to the point where your hearing threshold starts to reset. 😉 I hardly ever listen that loud these days... Pass the beer...
As 45 said, dynamics is important. But how dynamic is a driver when its voicecoil starts to glow like a toaster while playing music at 70dB SPL (listening position)?
Hope this post was on topic - don't want to be locked up alone with 45 in the Sin Bin
Best, Markus
Hope this post was on topic - don't want to be locked up alone with 45 in the Sin Bin
Best, Markus
To quote from the paper that you referenced
I agree with this 100% and I have plans to do such a test (those who follow my posts will see that this is exactly what I have been talking about). But not having done this test, Keith is simply guessing that it is not a major factor. The only data that we have in this regard is the fact that high efficiency loudspeakers are often, if not always, described as having a more dynamic sound. It is a simple fact that they have lower thermal changes and hence resistance changes. This is very strong evidence to say that the above test would show a significant effect from thermal modulation.
After hundreds of posts of discussions, I found that hifi guys tend to judge drivers' quality by subjective listening 'tests', so there are comments like "good hifi drivers are smoother, have more details, better for real music... etc."
While pro guys tend to find 'objective proofs of performance' to back up their theory. There're numbers, papers, measurements... etc.
It's so funny that I found, in my own 'subjective listening tests', pro drivers win, hands down. It's a more than good enough 'proof' for me. So, actually I'm one of those hifi guys, but I choose pro drivers. Really interesting here.
While pro guys tend to find 'objective proofs of performance' to back up their theory. There're numbers, papers, measurements... etc.
It's so funny that I found, in my own 'subjective listening tests', pro drivers win, hands down. It's a more than good enough 'proof' for me. So, actually I'm one of those hifi guys, but I choose pro drivers. Really interesting here.
As 45 said, dynamics is important. But how dynamic is a driver when its voicecoil starts to glow like a toaster while playing music at 70dB SPL (listening position)?
Hope this post was on topic - don't want to be locked up alone with 45 in the Sin Bin
Best, Markus
Hope that really isn't happening at 70dBSpl 😛 I suspect this becomes an issue when the required average power exceeds a few watts on a continuous basis in a voice coil that has trouble dissipating the heat. So, I suspect that in the real world that this might start to be a real issue with Spls in the high 80s with some drivers having efficiencies a number of dB lower than this. (And small voice coils made of materials that don't conduct heat well. Ever wonder why many pro woofers have aluminum VC formers?)
I have witnessed/been involved in experiments that demonstrated this effect very clearly, in practice you need to be certain that suspension limitations are not also responsible for an unexpected non-linear amplitude response to increased input power. i.e. Put in 3dB more power and see an spl increase of only 2dB vs an spl that actually decreases by a dB or more over some noted period of time. You can also measure the voltage at the driver terminals and the current flowing through the VC - thermal compression will result in both a falling spl and a falling VC current as it heats up. Rather interesting to observe.
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Makes me wonder how paper voice coils have lasted through half a century, and are also said to result in very good sound, especially with silver wire
I was windering that too!
In all seriousness, though, pro stuff DOES seem to do dynamics quite a chunk better. And with todays compressed recordings, we need every bit of help we can get!
Pro drivers are big and heavy. That's why I like them.
(also very fond of the paper voice coils)
(also very fond of the paper voice coils)
Grunt!
Me like'm big & heavy
Me like'm 4" aluminum 4 layer coils and rugged composite cones.
Me like'm big horns. Big horns = Big music
Me no like'm sissy hi-fi drivers - those for my sister.
Grunt. Must go drink grog now.
Cheers.
Me like'm big & heavy
Me like'm 4" aluminum 4 layer coils and rugged composite cones.
Me like'm big horns. Big horns = Big music
Me no like'm sissy hi-fi drivers - those for my sister.
Grunt. Must go drink grog now.
Cheers.
Actually, the plan is to build Rubanoides together with a friend
Yeah, I suppose I will use 18" woofers 😛
In the meantime I will play with some planar designs
Pro or hifi, I have no idea, and really dont think about it
Yeah, I suppose I will use 18" woofers 😛
In the meantime I will play with some planar designs
Pro or hifi, I have no idea, and really dont think about it
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As 45 said, dynamics is important. But how dynamic is a driver when its voicecoil starts to glow like a toaster while playing music at 70dB SPL (listening position)?
Hope this post was on topic - don't want to be locked up alone with 45 in the Sin Bin
Best, Markus
I can confirm that this Aura driver Aurasound NS15-992-4A 15" Subwoofer NLA from Madisound when tested on a Klippel got hot enough to make the plated coating on the Neo mags actually bubble and flake off and arc out against the VC, in the process causing what looked like sparks to shoot out the back of the driver.
My only other contribution to this thread will be that although Tonality goes a great way to selling the illusion without Dynamics though it has no hope of passing off the illusion as the real thing. Dynamics IMO is probably the most important part to making the illusion seem like the real deal. Please note though that Dynamics does'nt always mean high levels of average SPL, you can have dynamics at low levels and high levels.
Grunt!
Me like'm big & heavy
Me like'm 4" aluminum 4 layer coils and rugged composite cones.
Me like'm big horns. Big horns = Big music
Me no like'm sissy hi-fi drivers - those for my sister.
Grunt. Must go drink grog now.
Cheers.
That made my day 😀
And thats why i like this forum, since we dont forget to have fun with our hobby.
On the issue of dynamics I think lower efficiency drivers are simply on the wrong side of the power curve and more importantly are not designed to handle the power required for them to reproduce the loudest peaks. If they cannot do that them obviously music reproduced using them will be compressed. In addition to the driver issues lower efficiency speakers tax the amp speaker combination to it's limits much more easilly.
If you take a 85db speaker move back 12 ft you would be lucky to get 105db from the pair with 100 watts where you listen. That sounds like a rather high SPL level but it's not with a well recorded music where the dynamics are properly recorded. A snare drum rim shot could get you there in a heart beat, even playing at a more modest 85db average.
I think Earls right we need a Dynamic Linearity test to really see what's happening.
Rob🙂
If you take a 85db speaker move back 12 ft you would be lucky to get 105db from the pair with 100 watts where you listen. That sounds like a rather high SPL level but it's not with a well recorded music where the dynamics are properly recorded. A snare drum rim shot could get you there in a heart beat, even playing at a more modest 85db average.
I think Earls right we need a Dynamic Linearity test to really see what's happening.
Rob🙂
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