An oxymoron.
A proper blind test would. Not trivial to execute. Even more so if you want it to be statistically significant.
dave
Take two colour cards (from a paint shop), close but different. Treat them the same way you are forced to treat things in an audio ABX test. ie you can only ever view one card at a time, same sort of timing of changes, etc
You might be quite surprised just how "different" the colour cards need to be before you can reliably identify which is which.
This sort of testing is, IMO, likely to be quite biased towards a null result, and I can see no easy way of determining if a particular test is null biased or not, or to what degree.
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What is wrong with long term listening to the different cables to determine if there is or is not any sonic differences and which is preferred? It has always worked for me and others that I know. Flavor of the month has never been an issue as I rarely come to the same conclusions as most of the magazines. I want to "hear" real differences and that these "differences" improve the music I play on my system. Most people do not have the spare cash to waste on buying cables multiple times each year, let alone every couple of years. There has to be a serious improvement before I would consider changing.
I see people cite "biases" and that if a person were to see the cable being used they might be influenced into thinking that they sound better. These must be some very shallow people if the color or the way a cable is made can influence them to the point that do not listen closely. Are we not adults that can discern fact from fiction? If there is a difference, then it had better sound better than what I am using with a lot of different music, in my system, or I could care who makes them, their race, their language of choice, or what color the jacket material is made of, etc. I want results, period. My much is too hard to come by to fool it way on **. This approach has always worked for me, but I might just be a crass old bastard that thinks everything is bad, until it proves to me differently.
I see people cite "biases" and that if a person were to see the cable being used they might be influenced into thinking that they sound better. These must be some very shallow people if the color or the way a cable is made can influence them to the point that do not listen closely. Are we not adults that can discern fact from fiction? If there is a difference, then it had better sound better than what I am using with a lot of different music, in my system, or I could care who makes them, their race, their language of choice, or what color the jacket material is made of, etc. I want results, period. My much is too hard to come by to fool it way on **. This approach has always worked for me, but I might just be a crass old bastard that thinks everything is bad, until it proves to me differently.
Given the time he needs,anyone can tell the differences between twin brothers 🙂 Switch their pictures quickly in front of their eyes and surely even them(the twins) will not be able to tell if it was.....them😀
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Yeah but some say you have to listen long term to hear subtle differences. This would be like spending time with one card studying it for subtle hue clues. As you say this doesn't work well. With both cards you look at one then quickly focus on the other and differences become easily apparent. With audio you can instantly switch to another cable and also easily hear the differences...... if there are any.
If you can't hear any differences in a quick swap, but can with long term listening, what is going on?
A proper test is designed to eliminate the error of thinking there is a difference when there is not. Its easy to do (have the error) - I've A/B'd cables and would have sworn there was a difference when I "knew" which cable was being used. Then, the test goes double blind. Matched levels, listen as much as you like to A, then as much as you like to B, then X - and then the differences just disappear.
I was sincerely trying to be an objective as possible with the non-blind test - its just that psychology gets in the way - its almost impossible to not be biased when you know which cable is being used.
In a quick swap you are trying to hear differences betwen cables.With long term you listen to changes caused by the cables to the music you know very well.In certain parts of the music cable differences are bigger and easier to identify.That is at least how it "works" with me.
These are very subtle differences at first blush. Once heard though they are remembered and if taken away it is a huge lose.
The person that thought me how to listen intently, showed me the differences in many different amplifiers and these were very subtle when I first came to hear them, but over time I could begin to notice differences much quicker as I knew what I was listening for. Now I don't really care what I hear on short term basis. I want to live with things for an extended period to determine if the changes are for the better or worse, which can be deceiving on a short term basis.
Use the A-B button on your CD player and repeat the "certain parts of the music" where "cable differences are bigger and easier to identify".
Otherwise you are relying on your aural memory, which science says is very unreliable. You want the truth right?
Colour hue is one dimension, two if you grant saturation. Reproduction of an orchestra with chorus is significantly more complex. I still like the colour card analogy but for a different reason.
It's possible to modify the hue of three cards along a continuum - say 1, 2 and 3 - in such a manner that 1 and 2 look the same, 2 and 3 look the same, yet 1 and 3 can be differentiated. To me this is analogous to replacing a single wire (or resistor, cap, etc.) versus replacing them all. Not hearing a change in a single cable doesn't make cables inaudible, a tougher nut for ABX-style protocols.
There is no doubt you can become sensitised to audio artifacts beyond the norm. But do you think this is an advantage in one's enjoyment of music? I think it is a bit like becoming allergic to something, not good.
I know what science says🙂 What I want is to tune a system that I like to listen to music through it.I don't mind if any one else likes it or not.
To me a test as proposed by some is the unreliable way.Suppose you have a 10 minute piece of music,and you make a switching every one minute.What you will achieve is to listen to 10 different parts of that music,for one minute each part.Now,imagine what happens with quick swaps.
Now,if I have to chose something to rely on,I will choose my "aural memory"as you say,or,on how well I know my music as I say.After all it is a part of nature's senses/brain proceedure.Nature has not been created by science,it has just been proven.Many proofs will follow🙂
Interesting about that continuum. In my frantic component swapping days I used to swap all caps and all res like you suggest so any effect would be more audible. But alas I would then become allergic to some artifact of a component so it was back to mix and match. Luckily I found out that I was deluding myself most of the time or I would still be at it! 😀
If you are talking about people who are obsessed buying cables every day,then I also agree with you.But this is not the case.You may easily borrow as many cables as you like,try them,find what's best fo you,and then just sit back and enjoy the music.No allergies really 🙂 This kind of allergies cost much 😀
A wonderful thing about aural memory is the fact that it is unreliable. This allows me to have almost divine musical experiences even though the cables I am listening to are actually worse sounding than the ones I sold last year.
I haven't had any divine musical experiences yet🙂 But I know that aural memory (when comparing two cables) and knowing how music should sound,is not the same thing.
Back to divine musical experiences now,I don't think that they will appear to me if I sell my cables and buy "worse sounding" ones.But how do you conclude that your present cables are worse sounding than the ones you've sold last year?...........
Fredex,
I think it is an advantage if it is used properly. People have to understand what they are attempting to achieve. I listen to any changes for an extended period and switch it back to the way it was prior to the change and compare (capacitors, resistors, cables, etc). If I can not determine a definitive improvement, I will leave it as I had it prior to any changes. This is my reference. I am attempting to remove subtle things (improve resolution, remove a slight edge that I may not even been away existed, etc.). If I did not listen to the changes for extended periods before making a decision, I might be fooled into thinking one or the other was an improvement. It takes time to determine if the changes improve my enjoyment of the system.
In this day and age I like to alter my system as it is the best that I have ever heard, for me, in my room, with my music. Wholesale changes of system components is not good for my pocket book 🙂 The little changes can become great if they were taken away from me, as I will miss them! I don't do these types of things once a week, once a month or on predetermined intervals. I find something that a great many people are discussing and if I feel the urge, I may give "it" a try, provided it is not out of my reach monetarily, and from experience, I have some idea if it really might be something to consider.
This may not meet everyones expectations of how audio works for them, but it works for me. I can hear the differences in different cathode resistors, plate resistors, output transformers, tubes of the same type, but different manufacturers, etc. I have used these things to "voice" my system to a point that it is as good as I feel that the topology will allow it to go. This has taken me about 6 or 7 years now. I use tubed circuits so making these changes is not terribly difficult to do if the notion hits me. I have had the same speaker/interconnects for at least 4 or 5 years now. I may give something else a try in the Spring, but I am so happy with my system now, I probably won't.
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Coming from the printing side, I know this color difference thing pretty well. It's called Delta-E. The tolerance for printing is often expressed in Delta-E. We don't really have a measurement like that in audio, AFAIK.
If audio differences are not large, I often have trouble in the A/B switch. But what works best for me is to switch to something new, live with it for a week or two, then switch back to the old device. If there is a difference, it seems much more obviuos then. Not sure why, but this seems true for a lot of people.
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If audio differences are not large, I often have trouble in the A/B switch. But what works best for me is to switch to something new, live with it for a week or two, then switch back to the old device. If there is a difference, it seems much more obviuos then. Not sure why, but this seems true for a lot of people.
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I seem to remember having actual divine experiences before, but I could be wrong. 😀
you earlier; "What I want is to tune a system that I like to listen to music through it. I don't mind if any one else likes it or not."
That's what I want too, but if everyone else said it sucks I would have to question my hearing, or is there more than one truth?
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