Today was the day!
Finally we got the new clock for the DAC.
This was actually exciting since we did try both a discrete clock and an oscillator, and the oscillator was not implemented in the best possible way since it was just an experiment. Now the new clock is indeed implemented as care as can be, its got its own discrete regulator on board, and the oscillator is a very low jitter type.
The impact on the sonics are of course of great interest, but jitter allways has some way to surprise even nerds with long experience with lowering jitter.
So this also appears, its amazing what jitter does to sound.
In this case the impact on sound quality is pretty large, since the clock is the very heartbeat of this design. The impression here @ day 2 is that you both get smoother and tighter sound, as well as resolution is bettered. One might expect this to be in the highs, and so it might be, but it not the impression it leaves. It is much more down to earth and just in front of your nose, that most of it happenes. Resolution, tightness and naturalness in the very fundamentals. That´s nice
So im pleased with it, and now it is really finished.
Finally we got the new clock for the DAC.
This was actually exciting since we did try both a discrete clock and an oscillator, and the oscillator was not implemented in the best possible way since it was just an experiment. Now the new clock is indeed implemented as care as can be, its got its own discrete regulator on board, and the oscillator is a very low jitter type.
The impact on the sonics are of course of great interest, but jitter allways has some way to surprise even nerds with long experience with lowering jitter.
So this also appears, its amazing what jitter does to sound.
In this case the impact on sound quality is pretty large, since the clock is the very heartbeat of this design. The impression here @ day 2 is that you both get smoother and tighter sound, as well as resolution is bettered. One might expect this to be in the highs, and so it might be, but it not the impression it leaves. It is much more down to earth and just in front of your nose, that most of it happenes. Resolution, tightness and naturalness in the very fundamentals. That´s nice
So im pleased with it, and now it is really finished.
Today was the day!
Finally we got the new clock for the DAC.
This was actually exciting since we did try both a discrete clock and an oscillator, and the oscillator was not implemented in the best possible way since it was just an experiment. Now the new clock is indeed implemented as care as can be, its got its own discrete regulator on board, and the oscillator is a very low jitter type.
The impact on the sonics are of course of great interest, but jitter allways has some way to surprise even nerds with long experience with lowering jitter.
So this also appears, its amazing what jitter does to sound.
In this case the impact on sound quality is pretty large, since the clock is the very heartbeat of this design. The impression here @ day 2 is that you both get smoother and tighter sound, as well as resolution is bettered. One might expect this to be in the highs, and so it might be, but it not the impression it leaves. It is much more down to earth and just in front of your nose, that most of it happenes. Resolution, tightness and naturalness in the very fundamentals. That´s nice
So im pleased with it, and now it is really finished.
Yes... now it really is finished. I just assembled the second one in the enclosure, connected the mains-cable, and pushed the power button.
No smoke
The DAC just started playing! I will upload some pictures ASAP....
I will let the DAC heat up during the night, and start listening tomorrow morning. Generally we know, that it will take some hours/days to break the electronics in, before you achieve top performance.
Tomorrow night, we will run the first "official" demonstration... Can't wait!!
Congratulation.
Can't wait too... after a long discuss in this thread.. Now DAC is finished.
How can I buy PCB / final product of your DAC
Erwin
Can't wait too... after a long discuss in this thread.. Now DAC is finished.
How can I buy PCB / final product of your DAC
Erwin
Hey Erwin!
Yes it certainly has been a long time, but that is the only possible way, if discissions are not to be taken without trying them IRL.
And we would´t introduce that at this time by any means.
If you´d like a PCB, you just have to send a PM, with contact info, then we will assemble one for you, and ship ASAP.
You can also have it as a completed unit, with enclosure, unfortunately our enclosure is somewhat expensive, but it is very high end like.
There will be uploads of pictures available later on this day.
We do also need info on the voltage in your outlet. It can be configured for 100-120V or 220-240V AC 50/60Hz
Yes it certainly has been a long time, but that is the only possible way, if discissions are not to be taken without trying them IRL.
And we would´t introduce that at this time by any means.
If you´d like a PCB, you just have to send a PM, with contact info, then we will assemble one for you, and ship ASAP.
You can also have it as a completed unit, with enclosure, unfortunately our enclosure is somewhat expensive, but it is very high end like.
There will be uploads of pictures available later on this day.
We do also need info on the voltage in your outlet. It can be configured for 100-120V or 220-240V AC 50/60Hz
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As Kurt von Kubik wrote, we have some pictures taken this week-end, when we had a visit from 10 audiophiles from a hifi-club in the Copenhagen area.
The pictures show the completed DAC, in our custom made chassis. Chassis is all aluminium.
Top and bottom is laser cut from 5mm alu. Back is 2mm CNC milled with engraving. Rest of the chassis is 10mm CNC milled.
The pictures show the completed DAC, in our custom made chassis. Chassis is all aluminium.
Top and bottom is laser cut from 5mm alu. Back is 2mm CNC milled with engraving. Rest of the chassis is 10mm CNC milled.
Attachments
Hi Hurtig and KvK,
Maybe you guys could get some of the 10 audiophiles to comment on the sonics of the DAC here in this thread.
Nic
Maybe you guys could get some of the 10 audiophiles to comment on the sonics of the DAC here in this thread.
Nic
You told that i was not able to assemble them by myself. Can you tell the price for the ready one without chassis?
Is there a special reason that the chassis is bulletproof?
I hope I did not tell you that you are not able to assemble your self, but I did say, that a lot of DIYérs would get themselves into trouble trying to do so.
The complete PCB´s with transformers and everything needed will be around 450-500 $ give or take a bit, as the final BOM is not yet ready.
The enclosure was designed as a non resonant enclosure, which should be as close to "uniplaceable" as possible.
This means that we had the idea, to avoid at least the worst parts of mechanical resonance to find its way into the enclosure, to ensure uncolourated sound reproduction.
This also ensures that you can place the DAC almost anywhere, without very different sonic impressions.
Though I´d still try to find the optimum placement by ear, as it is impossible to be in advance of every vibrant environment throughout the planet.
But that is the basic reason for the bulk of our enclosure.
About the chassis being bulletproof.... Just to specify the idea:
There are many ways of optaining the non-resonant enclosure. We have seen a lot of DIY'ers using resonant chassis, and then damping with bitumen an similiar. This is the easy approach, and we really do not like this.
Our approach is to make sure the vibrations do not ever start, rather than removing them when present. That's the main reason why we designed the chassis the way it is.
There are many ways of optaining the non-resonant enclosure. We have seen a lot of DIY'ers using resonant chassis, and then damping with bitumen an similiar. This is the easy approach, and we really do not like this.
Our approach is to make sure the vibrations do not ever start, rather than removing them when present. That's the main reason why we designed the chassis the way it is.
Actually there are no ways to achieve this. I agree that damping doesn't always sound good but nor does excessive mass and large reflective surfaces. It just lowers the resonant frequency and makes it even more difficult to control with external anti-vibration measures. IME a 10mm alu case with very similar construction, especially with a solid top cover in place did not sound good at all.
Well! Some did.
In earlier incarnations we used 2 mm aluminium top and buttom plates, then later 2*2mm top and bottum glued together. What we experienced was that the less resonant, the less colouration. Therefore the chassis is not just bulky, you also will find a lot of screws to hold it together, 10 pcs. on both top and buttom, and 6 for backpanel and front. This makes a very solid and close to non resonant enclosure, which has good thermal properties, which we also need.
To take the non resonant design further, we decided to use self adhessive PCB holders as far as could be carried out, rather than metal ones. The feet are 3M rubber feet, which amongst many different types, I like the best.
It is important though to give it a thought where you place it. We tried to solve that problem as much as could be done, but still you have to think of how you avoid vibrations to get into it, and since that is enevitable, how you make them get out and away.
IMHO it is best placed either on a heavy non resonant surface, which could be a CD transport with a heavy or/and solid top plate, a heavy shelf that might be wooden or not. To me glass, MDF, HDF, Granite, Marble and stuff like that does not make sense, Plywood, chipboard and maybe sandwich designs or so, will do better.
During developmet a lot of experiments came about, one of the more interesting ones was a 1,5 kg solid aluminium block, on which the DAC was fastened with 6 steel screws, that was indeed no good solution. I still have it lying around, as it makes me laugh now and then.
But at the end something were to be chosen, and from our experiments the present enclosure came about as a working solution.
Knokking on top of it makes your finger hurt, and no resonance occurs, it is silent without any additional damping, and that was excactly what we wanted.
Unfortunately this makes the BOM go crazy, as the cost is arround 3 times as high as a "high end" standard enclosure. But it makes you both better sound and a nice feel, and if you do not reach for the sky, you will never end up with a star.
(I could not edit the former message, hence this repetition
Well! Some did.
In earlier incarnations we used 2 mm aluminium top and buttom plates, then later 2*2mm top and buttom glued together, also steel plates was used. What we experienced was that the less resonant, the less colouration. Therefore the chassis is not just bulky, you also will find a lot of screws to hold it together, 10 pcs. on both top and buttom, and 6 for backpanel and front. This makes a very solid and close to non resonant enclosure, which has good thermal properties, which we also need.
To take the non resonant design further, we decided to use self adhessive PCB holders as far as could be carried out, rather than metal ones. The feet are 3M rubber feet, which amongst many different types, I like the best.
It is important though to give it a thought where you place it. We tried to solve that problem as much as could be done, but still you have to think of how you avoid vibrations to get into it, and since that is enevitable, how you make them get out and away.
IMHO it is best placed either on a heavy non resonant surface, which could be a CD transport with a heavy or/and solid top plate, or a heavy shelf that might be wooden or not. To me glass, MDF, HDF, Granite, Marble and stuff like that does not make sense
, Plywood, chipboard and maybe sandwich designs or so, will do better.During developmet a lot of experiments came about, one of the more interesting ones was a 1,5 kg solid aluminium block, on which the DAC was fastened with 6 steel screws, that was indeed no good solution
. I still have it lying around, as it makes me laugh now and then.😀But at the end something were to be chosen, and from our experiments the present enclosure came about as a working solution.
Knoking on top of it makes your finger hurt, and no resonance occurs, it is silent without any additional damping, and that was excactly how we intended it to be.
Unfortunately this makes the BOM go crazy, as the cost is arround 3 times as high as a "high end" standard enclosure. But it makes you both better sound and a nice feel, and if you do not reach for the sky, you will never end up with a star.
So I hope that I do not offend anybody by saying, that the enclosure definately is a part of the design, both sonically and visual.
I wouldn´t miss it @ the present cost, and I don´t think the man at the factory would either 😀.
Btw. we evaluated the BOM of the PCB´s. At first we had an idea of around 400-450$, but we forgot VAT, which will not be refunded when exported, as we are no commercial company. Therefor it is 500$ including transformer PCB, you´ll have to ad leads from Transformer PCB to main PCB, IEC socket, powerswitch, switch for input select and if you like a LED for locking or power or both.
So to make it short:
500$ for the PCB´s complete and tested
500$ for the enclosure
No sales of raw PCB´s for hardcore DIYérs, as we do not think that will be a workable solution - our seconds also became better than the first ones😱
We do have 15 complete sets of PCB´s, 2 of them are for ourselves, the rest can be obtained. By now 10 pcs. are obtainable and only for DIYérs, not for commercial copying, and only one per head.
When gone - case closed.
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Try the Stealth approach. 🙂
I agree that two plates of half thickness that are glued together are better than one plate.
Even glass becomes acoustically dead.
I fully agree. Only problem is, that this is hard to handle in production. It may very well end up in huge tolerances and a very low WAF.
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(I could not edit the former message, hence this repetition
Well! Some did.
In earlier incarnations we used 2 mm aluminium top and buttom plates, then later 2*2mm top and buttom glued together, also steel plates was used. What we experienced was that the less resonant, the less colouration. Therefore the chassis is not just bulky, you also will find a lot of screws to hold it together, 10 pcs. on both top and buttom, and 6 for backpanel and front. This makes a very solid and close to non resonant enclosure, which has good thermal properties, which we also need.
To take the non resonant design further, we decided to use self adhessive PCB holders as far as could be carried out, rather than metal ones. The feet are 3M rubber feet, which amongst many different types, I like the best.
It is important though to give it a thought where you place it. We tried to solve that problem as much as could be done, but still you have to think of how you avoid vibrations to get into it, and since that is enevitable, how you make them get out and away.
IMHO it is best placed either on a heavy non resonant surface, which could be a CD transport with a heavy or/and solid top plate, or a heavy shelf that might be wooden or not. To me glass, MDF, HDF, Granite, Marble and stuff like that does not make sense
During developmet a lot of experiments came about, one of the more interesting ones was a 1,5 kg solid aluminium block, on which the DAC was fastened with 6 steel screws, that was indeed no good solution
But at the end something were to be chosen, and from our experiments the present enclosure came about as a working solution.
Knoking on top of it makes your finger hurt, and no resonance occurs, it is silent without any additional damping, and that was excactly how we intended it to be.
Unfortunately this makes the BOM go crazy, as the cost is arround 3 times as high as a "high end" standard enclosure. But it makes you both better sound and a nice feel, and if you do not reach for the sky, you will never end up with a star.
So I hope that I do not offend anybody by saying, that the enclosure definately is a part of the design, both sonically and visual.
I wouldn´t miss it @ the present cost, and I don´t think the man at the factory would either 😀.
Btw. we evaluated the BOM of the PCB´s. At first we had an idea of around 400-450$, but we forgot VAT, which will not be refunded when exported, as we are no commercial company. Therefor it is 500$ including transformer PCB, you´ll have to ad leads from Transformer PCB to main PCB, IEC socket, powerswitch, switch for input select and if you like a LED for locking or power or both.
So to make it short:
500$ for the PCB´s complete and tested
500$ for the enclosure
No sales of raw PCB´s for hardcore DIYérs, as we do not think that will be a workable solution - our seconds also became better than the first ones😱
We do have 15 complete sets of PCB´s, 2 of them are for ourselves, the rest can be obtained. By now 10 pcs. are obtainable and only for DIYérs, not for commercial copying, and only one per head.
When gone - case closed.
So this in now a "commercial design" and not a DIY product?
Yeah 2 plates glued together were just fine, but unfortunately the aluminium looses its thermal properties because of the glue. So that was a no go.
Therefor we decided to build the enclosure in a way, where stifness replaces damping, still with a nice feel, but without excessive bulkynes. The Complete DAC ways around 3 kg. which we find sufficient not to pick up dammaging vibrations from the outside.
We tested this by placing weight on top of it, and additional weight still removes vibration, but I think the compromise we made is pretty much what is needed. For additional vibrationdamping I´d rather place it on top of something heavy.
The feet used are the C model http://dk.mouser.com/catalog/639/1834.pdf just they are grey instead of black.
Not really!
If you read the last remark, you´d see that it is not.
We did this project to build a DAC for ourselves, and a couple of freinds and relatives, but it simply is not possible to order low quantity PCB´s and enclosures without paying the excact same total amount as if you ordered i.e. 5-10 or so.
Therefor we do have some spares, which we could either throw away, or finish for other nerds to enjoy.
We only had 13 spares of the PCB´s, and 3 enclosures, when they are gone, the show is over.
A commercial product is somewhat distant to us, as we then would have to do ESD, EMC and also a world wide warranty, and we deffinately do not want to do that.
So if anyone would want to own one of these set of boards, they shall be welcome to get one @ a very decent price, which is 500$ of which the BOM is 300$ including VAT, but excluding the PCB´s and then it has to be assembled.
So the commercial thing is pretty hard to see, we are misserable tradesmen, but money wasn´t ever an issue throughout this project. Sound was the only subject on our agenda.
That is the reason why you have:
Completely discrete analog class A stage with very high bias (all analog stages are class A, but for absolutely "commercial" reasons I´ll just mention that ours is class A into around 100 Ohms as well😀).
- Passive post filtering @ 100 KHz 2. order
- 15 regulators on board of which 9 are discrete and 4 of those are shunt regulators, which in reality means class A power supplies for the class A analog stage.
- All voltages are regulated twice.
- Separate supplies for both analog and digital supplies for the chips.
- capable of recieving 24 bit 192KHz data.
- Asyncronios upsampling to ca. 96 KHz 24bit.
- Non global feedback design.
- No caps in the signal path
- DC coupled with 0,01Hz servo circuitry
- Separate transformers for digital and analog circuitry
- Separate transformer board
- Panasonic FM smoothing and digital decoupling caps with worlds lowest ESR
- ROHM SMD transistors wit extreme linear HFE
- Ridiculous low clock jitter
You will be able to find these features in commercial DACs also, but have a nice long look at the price tag. And that is what commercialisation is all about.
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