How good is the Buffalo Dac?

[leo]

Why is it that leo has offered to build your DAC so many times and continuously asks for the price of the PCB and what not and you just skip over it as if he didn't post at all? If you really want to prove your DAC is better send him the PCB let him build it and make a comparison. Heck maybe he'd let some other trusted members of the forum try it out as well and we can get a consensus. It seems you are all talk with absolutely no action. You said you posted schematics but you really didn't you posted partial schematics and then they weren't even correct according to your thread.

Oh well, it was a worth a try eh
I've come to the conclusion its not worth the hassle so will just stick with the so called inferior Buffalo32s

 

[leo]

The Sabre DAC output looks like a voltage source with 780 Ohm output impedance. It may be used in both "voltage mode" where you driving it into a high impedance, or in "current mode" (like the Buffalo implementation) by driving it into a low impedance. A large difference is in that it doesn't have a switched cap filter in the DAC section like some others do. Not that there is anything wrong with those, I just did it differently. As a by product of the way its done, as many many people have pointed out, rightfully, the DAC is a bit more sensitive to power supplies. At first I thought of this as a weakness, but after a while I have come to realize its actually the right thing to do. The tradeoff would have been to give up some performance for PSRR, or have the ability to get good performance, but that will require a good power supply technique. This is where manufacturer's can some in and add their own expertise for product differentiation. If every implementation sounded the same independent of the power supply, what fun would that be for all the tweakers and modders? I know I have fun with it myself.

KvK, Hurtig, you really owe it to yourself to atleast just listen to Russ and Brian's Buffalo32. If you dont like it after, rip on it then. At some point I would like to listen to your "no global feedback" design. I am very curious. Having a design that is linearized along the way does have the advantage that the ringing will be minimal. I think your design deserves a listen, but afterall, so does the Buffalo. Since I have never heard a CS4396/CS4398 based design, maybe yours will be the first for me. How much can I buy one for, and when will I be able to get one?


Dustin

Thanks Dustin!

 

[Kurt von Kubik]

The schedule for finished PCB´s are should be late this month.
We have ordered PCB´s for the clock circuit, and 3 days ago they went into production @ Olimex, so they should be here within a week.
The reason that it took so was, that we are also building a prototype for switching amp, with SMPS, the files for these also had to be finished, so that we use the whole board. The clocks only take up 20*30mm, so there was a lot of board to be used, and so we did.
Then we wil have to make a listening test of the new clock, which I hope will be very good, but until now hope never took us anywhere, only a few tercent inspiration and a lot of transpiration.

But it should in theory be better than the one I use at this time, and I can hardly wait for it to arive. After that a some boards can be completed, but if you wan´t to do that yourself, you are welcome to buy the PCB without components, you can have a partslist then.
The completed PCB´s will cost around 450 including transformer PCB and transformers. Enclosures for the complete DAC is pretty expensive, it is a very rigid and completely antiresonant custom made alu enclosure of which we only made 5 pcs. They will be around 500$ each. Both prices are give or take a little, since a few things was not yet billed to us.

 

[Kurt von Kubik]

@Dustin!
I´d love to listen to the Buffalo, but I´d love a lot more to listen to the Sabre DAC throug a well designed discrete analog stage. If anyone here in DK owns a Buffalo, which is set-up with decent supllies, He/she should be very welcome to drop by to compare the Buffalo with ours.
I will then promise to listen without any bias and with an open mind, since the architecture of the DAC chip is completely different from anything else available.

I hope somebody is out there.

 

[Sangram]

Since I have never heard a CS4396/CS4398 based design, maybe yours will be the first for me. How much can I buy one for

The $100 Asus Xonar DX uses a CS4398.

So does the E-mu 1212m, and some versions of the (in?)famous Zhalou DAC, at least the very early ones offered it. Some <$200 CD players also use the Crystal chip.

It's actually a pretty common chip in budget gear, so you should have no problems finding a device with it

 

[Kurt von Kubik]

The $100 Asus Xonar DX uses a CS4398.

So does the E-mu 1212m, and some versions of the (in?)famous Zhalou DAC, at least the very early ones offered it. Some <$200 CD players also use the Crystal chip.

It's actually a pretty common chip in budget gear, so you should have no problems finding a device with it

Not actually!

Crystals main focus of the flagship DACs, are mainly on the pro segment along with AKM.
Budget players often uses the single ended DACs from Crystal Semi, and also surround processors often uses their 6/8 channel types.

BTW the Zhalou DAC seems very cheap, they must do a lot of them.

The price of the product does not really say anything about the chip though, since all DAC chips these days are pretty cheap. AKM, and Wolfson as the low price alternatives. The ESS chip is at the end of the day the cheapest though, since it replaces 4 chips, and a lot of their supplies and regulators.
That looks like a hit to me.

 

[NicMac]

@Dustin!
I´d love to listen to the Buffalo, but I´d love a lot more to listen to the Sabre DAC throug a well designed discrete analog stage. If anyone here in DK owns a Buffalo, which is set-up with decent supllies, He/she should be very welcome to drop by to compare the Buffalo with ours.
I will then promise to listen without any bias and with an open mind, since the architecture of the DAC chip is completely different from anything else available.

I hope somebody is out there.

Your DAC may be very good, but your claim of being able to listen to a Buffalo "without any bias and with an open mind" sounds pretty incredible
Anyway, it sounds like the main PCB's, i.e. those used for the unit you are listening to, and the BOM are ready. So what is the price for the PCB and where can we find the BOM?

Thanks,
Nic

 

[daddy4life85]

The completed PCB´s will cost around 450 including transformer PCB and transformers. Enclosures for the complete DAC is pretty expensive, it is a very rigid and completely antiresonant custom made alu enclosure of which we only made 5 pcs. They will be around 500$ each. Both prices are give or take a little, since a few things was not yet billed to us.

Hmm all this time you keep claiming that you aren't trying to sell a product but this last paragraph sure sounds like it. Sure you say we can get the PCB's but all this time you've kept saying that it's not really a good DIY project because it's complicated and such. Now the truth comes out 500 for the chassis and 450 for the rest of the DAC.

You also said several weeks ago that the PCB's were ready and now they are "almost" ready.

 

[NicMac]

Hmm all this time you keep claiming that you aren't trying to sell a product but this last paragraph sure sounds like it. Sure you say we can get the PCB's but all this time you've kept saying that it's not really a good DIY project because it's complicated and such. Now the truth comes out 500 for the chassis and 450 for the rest of the DAC.

I'm sure that if KvK's "Elabs digilog" DAC was in any way a commercial product its thread should be moved to the vendor's bazaar and his postings on this one be considered spam.

 

[R-K Rønningstad]

There has never been arguments about the qualities of the Sabre DAC, since We´ve never tried it out, and do not know it. But what we did was trying out almost endles numbers of different op-amp configurations and types. They do have some advantages, as it always works at first shot, they are cheap, easy to get and there is a lot to chose from. Just audio types are pretty rare.
The disadvantages is deffinately sound quality, at a point it was almost like if somebody describes the sound of an amplifier, I could guess which op-amps was used. So it will be with the Buffalo, the sound you like is by far mostly the sound the opamps. In fact the op-amps most often used in CD players and DACs, are the components at which you can addres the whole idea about digital sound.

I also like discrete amplifiers, if not for anything else, they are more fun!
Be that as it may, but remember one thing, at the production end of audio, opamps rule - if not supreme, so at least to a very large degree.
And when the audio chain - at the production and the consumer end, is flooded with opamps, how can one hear the real advantages of discrete amplifiers - be that tubes, JFETs, bipolars...


Rolv-Karsten

 

[daddy4life85]

I'm sure that if KvK's "Elabs digilog" DAC was in any way a commercial product its thread should be moved to the vendor's bazaar and his postings on this one be considered spam.

Agreed, of course he may argue that the Buffalo is a commercial product but in reality Russ and Brian profit very little from it and it's more of a hobby. Of course they didn't try and hide saying it wasn't a commercial product for many months and then suddenly come out with "oh now you can buy it for xxxx amount of dollars" either.

 

[Sangram]

Not Actually!

This is getting very tiresome. I have reviewed the card myself, and you seem to be suggesting that the photographs and specifications are wrong. You seem to be nothing more than a terrible shill for your own product, at the same time berating everything else. At least you can get your facts right.

Heres' the link to the review. The picture is on page 2. The specs are on the Asus site. Knock yourself out. http://www.techenclave.com/reviews-and-previews/asus-xonar-dx-review-125339-gars2.html

 

[Spartacus]

That is not possible, as the Buffalo is an I out DAC and the CS4396 is an U out type. There has to be some kind of I/V conversion for the Sabre.

It's very possible, as would be clear if you took the time to actually examine the product.

 

[tritosine]

the most interesting would be comparison of
1. straight 1 bit converter like ZETEX ddfa (used as DA)
2. voltage out Cirrus/AKM
3. 6+ bit quantizers , ESS Sabe , PCM1794

This would once and for all settle the case of "heavily oversampled" genre, and the degree of difference.

 

[Kurt von Kubik]

Your DAC may be very good, but your claim of being able to listen to a Buffalo "without any bias and with an open mind" sounds pretty incredible
Anyway, it sounds like the main PCB's, i.e. those used for the unit you are listening to, and the BOM are ready. So what is the price for the PCB and where can we find the BOM?

Thanks,
Nic

I have been eating myself several times the last few years, and everybody knowing me knows, that I´ve got only one purpose, and that is best sound quality what so ever. Nothing is at all holy to me. Believe it or not - that´s the way it is - period.
I will easily throw away years of R&D for a simpler and cheaper solution.
That is the exact reason why, we just started to try out some very new and different class D experiments. These are going to compede with the love of my life, namely my 100 watts pr. ch. 60 dgr. C hot 100 Kg forced cooled class A monster amp.
If we might succed - which I doubt very much - I´ll wave goodbye to the monster before you know it. But time will show.

A few items for the BOM is missing, and we did not yet recieve PCB´s for the clock assembly, which you will need, but a good shot would say around 300$ if you make the assembly on your own without enclosure.

The excact BOM is a bit difficult since I think we´ve got problems with having everything from one single vendor.

 

[Kurt von Kubik]

Hmm all this time you keep claiming that you aren't trying to sell a product but this last paragraph sure sounds like it. Sure you say we can get the PCB's but all this time you've kept saying that it's not really a good DIY project because it's complicated and such. Now the truth comes out 500 for the chassis and 450 for the rest of the DAC.

You also said several weeks ago that the PCB's were ready and now they are "almost" ready.

The only reason for a few spares are, that we cannot order one single piece of everything. I.e. the cost of 5 pcs. is the same as for one.

 

[Kurt von Kubik]

I also like discrete amplifiers, if not for anything else, they are more fun!
Be that as it may, but remember one thing, at the production end of audio, opamps rule - if not supreme, so at least to a very large degree.
And when the audio chain - at the production and the consumer end, is flooded with opamps, how can one hear the real advantages of discrete amplifiers - be that tubes, JFETs, bipolars...


Rolv-Karsten

No!
It is not at the production end.
It all lies in the development end. All young engineers learned the way to do things right. And that is the shortest and most economic way to the final product. Op-amps always do their work as supposed.

 

[Kurt von Kubik]

Agreed, of course he may argue that the Buffalo is a commercial product but in reality Russ and Brian profit very little from it and it's more of a hobby. Of course they didn't try and hide saying it wasn't a commercial product for many months and then suddenly come out with "oh now you can buy it for xxxx amount of dollars" either.

You can´t!
When our spares are gone it is over.

 

[Kurt von Kubik]

the most interesting would be comparison of
1. straight 1 bit converter like ZETEX ddfa (used as DA)
2. voltage out Cirrus/AKM
3. 6+ bit quantizers , ESS Sabe , PCM1794

This would once and for all settle the case of "heavily oversampled" genre, and the degree of difference.

This sounds pretty interesting to me.
Which principle is actually superior.
I´ve liked the Philips DAC 7 really much, but they passed their expertise, especially DEM, on to Crystal a decade ago, and by now Crystal do not do any real 1 bit DACs anymore. 192KHz 24 bits seemes to much for that technology.
BB also discarded their R2R lader tech, which were very expensive, but extremely relaiable and well sounding.
And we must not forget AD, who were the pioneers of obscene data for DAC chips.


This I think leaves us with only number 2 and 3.
Am I right?

 

[tritosine]

This I think leaves us with only number 2 and 3.
Am I right?

no, 1. is coming back and its here to stay

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1856246&postcount=47