Maybe because you weren't reading the research and patent literature on the electrical properties of polymers, Fourier transform techniques, and the photoacoustic effect.
Welcome to the Blowtorch thread ... !!
Yes, it's all about listening for "substantial audible artifacts" - with a little bit of guidance it then becomes trivially easy to pick where typical audio systems stumble, a few seconds listening with the right material gives the game away, every time. Others, much more tolerant, call it the "sound of the system" ...
No, SY, I was measuring real world capacitors, where I found differences in a number of ways. Personally, I don't care if someone uses polypropylene, polystyrene, or Teflon. They all measure pretty good as far as non-linear distortion and DA. What is the problem. Do you really want X7 ceramic coupling caps like Sony did in its FM tuner? Not for me, thanks, I would rather go back to wax paper, or perhaps a quality electrolytic.
John, if one wants to made a truly accurate model of some part in something like LTspice then it can be done - you can add as as many parasitics as you like, and, you can make the parasitics behave as nastily, ie, non-linearly, as you like; as complex functions of voltage, temperature, etc. IOW, you can get as fancy as you want, depending on what you're after. This all takes time and effort, which is why it's never done ...
, A lot of my understanding on what's really going on in audio circuitry has come about by using this approach ...
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This all takes time and effort, which is why it's never done ...
I am sure Scott if he had the inclination could tell you how much time is put into getting the models right for IC processes. With the cost of a mask set you can't afford to have to refab with a complex chip. But of course you know what the acronym stands for!
My goal wasn't to compete in the numbers games.
I wanted to see how simple I could get while remaining audibly transparent, and from my own informal listening tests against amps with much better "numbers" I think it was a success.
If you'd like to bring Bart back from the dead, I can arrange a listening session.
And I'm not sure that comparison to lossy digital audio codecs is quite apt.
Who exactly was the Big Bully? I know jj, who was among those who developed the MP3 codec, but he has never claimed that the codec was audibly transparent.
se
EXACTLY, John!
If linear parts can accurately model DA, how can there be a non-linear component to DA? Can you tell me how you can model non-linear behavior using only linear parts?
se
Ahh. Did someone say it was? No? Did I report my test results and show the circuit and exactly the test and data? Yes, I did. I did not hide anything from anyone. It supported the conclusion of the S/H comparison data captured of music waveforms affected by high DA caps. That is all.... my conclusion was that the test gave data that was a best fit to listeners comments of the sound of polar cap vs no cap or a film cap. No other large scale research was done beyond what was shown in elect engineering on caps and discussions with cap mfr etc.
Measure it others ways and try to do apples to apples... ? It is what it shows. I still wish a material eng/science major would give us eng types the info to really explain it.... waiting 30 years.
It shows what DA does under those particular test conditions. The model of DA is linear. Non-linearity is not shown or added to a DA model nor any other related parameter model of capacitor material. Is DA non-linear? Not by the DA model. It does cause measured waveform distortion under these conditions. The materials seems to be capable of producing non-linear distortion (THD/IM) but no electronic book shows it. Maybe material/polymer science does. We havent even been given a link to that possibility. If it can be proven that some material characteristic of the caps measured is responsible and totally unrelated to DA.... thats cool. What is it? It wont change the polar cap/film test data on behavour.... just the explanation of cause mechanism. Which is a nicety to know factoid but I'll still not use certain caps because of these and other test data and audibility combined.
I am still waiting to know the chemical mechanism for DA and for non-linearity as applied to caps. Got links to specific point being addressed?
Can it be explained in simple elect engineering terms? If the answer is again --- NO. Then we all might as well go home and get some R & R.
I will leave you with something to quote; I, Richard Marsh, have not scientifically proven any non-linearity is due to DA by the test.
Now put your polar alum caps back in and forget about DA..... cause it is related to something else..... a voltage coeff perhaps.
THx-RNMarsh
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Ha ha!
"To my best knowledge I'm the first one who writes about this, despite the striking simplicity of the arrangement."
Attachments
Volt Coeff of caps...
http://www.niccomp.com/help/VoltageCoefficientofCapacitors-032012-R1.pdf
Well, that rules out Vcoeff for polar and film.
THx-RNMarsh
http://www.niccomp.com/help/VoltageCoefficientofCapacitors-032012-R1.pdf
Well, that rules out Vcoeff for polar and film.
THx-RNMarsh
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So,
It will take me another week maybe two to get the DDT out of my analyzer.
In the mean time...since somebody knows what to listen for, I would appreciate
if whomever knows would inform us what to listen for?
It shouldn't be too hard to hear right? So let's get to the ear training with actual
music...maybe five, three easy pieces? With time data? That would be a start.
Can you hear it in Joan Baez Diamonds and Rust? Where?
SY - If you would be kind enough to include some links please.
I'll be happy to read them. Or citations.
SE - What board did you use for your plots? What was the freq and voltage
of the input to it?
FAS42 - Please advise. If you know then let me know because I want to know
and listen to it. I'm not being a smart *** here either.
When questioned or at times I try to include links or scans with reference material
and citations so folks can check it out, read, learn, etc. That should be what we want
to do here and some folks have provided some very helpful information.
AND THEN,
My little girl comes running in saying "pants", "pants", and I think she
peed in her diaper...instead she is hold up a pair of pants from her little
Barbie doll, recognizes they are pants...and demonstrates with her foot
that they are too small for her to wear.
I have to explain to her that they are for her BARBIE doll. And that she
is correct they are pants...too small for her to wear. She recognizes this
when I explain it to her. Then runs to get and show me her Barbie with
the dress on it half removed.
She is 23 months old.
Maybe six months ago while watching some band on TV,
she didn't like the sound of the TV, so she walked over to
the connected stereo and pushed on the power button, then
cheered and started to dance.
Funny during the ending of a movie that was playing t hrough the
TV & Stereo, the music was a pretty nice emotional classical sounding
piece, she started dancing, turning and got down and rolled with the
music on the rug.
She gets the emotional connection that music has.
Cheers,
It will take me another week maybe two to get the DDT out of my analyzer.
In the mean time...since somebody knows what to listen for, I would appreciate
if whomever knows would inform us what to listen for?
It shouldn't be too hard to hear right? So let's get to the ear training with actual
music...maybe five, three easy pieces? With time data? That would be a start.
Can you hear it in Joan Baez Diamonds and Rust? Where?
SY - If you would be kind enough to include some links please.
I'll be happy to read them. Or citations.
SE - What board did you use for your plots? What was the freq and voltage
of the input to it?
FAS42 - Please advise. If you know then let me know because I want to know
and listen to it. I'm not being a smart *** here either.
When questioned or at times I try to include links or scans with reference material
and citations so folks can check it out, read, learn, etc. That should be what we want
to do here and some folks have provided some very helpful information.
AND THEN,
My little girl comes running in saying "pants", "pants", and I think she
peed in her diaper...instead she is hold up a pair of pants from her little
Barbie doll, recognizes they are pants...and demonstrates with her foot
that they are too small for her to wear.
I have to explain to her that they are for her BARBIE doll. And that she
is correct they are pants...too small for her to wear. She recognizes this
when I explain it to her. Then runs to get and show me her Barbie with
the dress on it half removed.
She is 23 months old.
Maybe six months ago while watching some band on TV,
she didn't like the sound of the TV, so she walked over to
the connected stereo and pushed on the power button, then
cheered and started to dance.
Funny during the ending of a movie that was playing t hrough the
TV & Stereo, the music was a pretty nice emotional classical sounding
piece, she started dancing, turning and got down and rolled with the
music on the rug.
She gets the emotional connection that music has.
Cheers,
Many years ago, the late Joe Cocker, having slipped his handlers, was roaming the halls of Kendun one night as a mastering session was proceeding in one of the studios. The already-nervous producer was making small final adjustments in the process. Tape was rolling, all were silent and listening intently. The material had some dialogue connected with some vaguely political theme, antiwar or what not.
Cocker came into the room and listened for a bit. He didn't like what he heard, and went to the machine and punched stop.
I might add that my little girl reacts to "The N Word" by crying.
I tell her when she is out of control or yelling or being disobedient...
(and it's usually the case that she needs it)
I tell her it's time for her...
NAPPY
and she screams all the way to her crib,
and is usually asleep in minutes.
Naps are good things
for kids and adults.
Cheers,
Sync, if you are being serious about it probably best to start up or go to another thread about it - a good start is to use a recording that has a fairly dense mix, where the average volume stays high, and in that mix is a component that has a high level of high frequency harmonics. I use Status Quo here, almost perfect for the job - most systems barely get within reach of getting the sound right on typical tracks ...
whattdayamean?
No , this is (below). a little "magic" ....
OS
Maybe....it USED to be Magic,
BUT
You let the SMOKE out!!!!
Now what do we do?
I did notice you had very good left and right balance!
Looks like the two lower and two upper (left and right channel)
resistors fried at the same time.
OR
Was it still running and you wiped them off to get
better measurements from them?
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Welcome to the Blowtorch thread ... !!
Yes, it's all about listening for "substantial audible artifacts" - with a little bit of guidance it then becomes trivially easy to pick where typical audio systems stumble, a few seconds listening with the right material gives the game away, every time. Others, much more tolerant, call it the "sound of the system" ...
FAS42 this is what I meant. Let me find Bosco's post.
Which parts of music, what tr acks, time etc.
Might as well describe it here and now.
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Okay, in the sense that Bart Locanthi "listened" for artifacts, if I put on a Status Quo track, and "Carolyn" is as good as any in this respect, what I'm listening for is the shimmer of the cymbals. These are struck constantly throughout the track, keeping time - you've got a good 3 minutes or so to let the sound register to your hearing ... if you say, what cymbals? then it's an immediate fail!! Seriously, on some system, all one hears is a vague white noise in the background, almost no connection to the real sound of what it actually is.
If you do have a decent cymbal sound then drop the volume right down - does the quality of the strike on the metal improve? If so, then there will be a volume, going up, where the purity of that sound element will deteriorate, the shimmer will start to disappear, go dull - this is power supply problems. Ideally, one can go right to clipping with no loss of quality.
If the system is working well, then the sound image of the drummer working his set will be as clear, and distinct, as on a high quality jazz recording - that's the subjective impression that comes across.
If you do have a decent cymbal sound then drop the volume right down - does the quality of the strike on the metal improve? If so, then there will be a volume, going up, where the purity of that sound element will deteriorate, the shimmer will start to disappear, go dull - this is power supply problems. Ideally, one can go right to clipping with no loss of quality.
If the system is working well, then the sound image of the drummer working his set will be as clear, and distinct, as on a high quality jazz recording - that's the subjective impression that comes across.
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