Listen, lets keep things simple. I know what you want. You want subwoofer that can play smooth and tight for nice music listening, that in the same time can go really low for movies, and you want it to be able to break **** once a week for a party or something. That is not impossible, but it is also not cheap. Driver that has tight bass, deep lows and is loud costs a lot, and maybe out of your budget.
Now, what can be suitable for you, like I said it before is one good 12" car subwoofer. You showed us frequency response of your towers. They can play 50Hz and then they drop. So, you can cut off your sub at 50Hz with low pass filter. There is no need for your sub to play higher frequencies.
Your biggest problem is room that you have and designing the best sub for that room. First problem you'd have is room modes. Is low bass in your room even possible? 20-30Hz in most living rooms or bedrooms is hard to achieve. Then there is resonating of everything in that room, like windows, doors, ceiling, closets, all that likes to resonate on low frequencies. For example, on only 8W of power at 26Hz, my sub will shake windows. You cant even hear it properly but the window is big panel that resonates at 26Hz. And basically before I fixed it there was no point in listening to songs with 26Hz bass. My doors resonate at 22Hz, same story. Closet door at something like 40Hz...
I learn well but suck at teaching others. There is a lot to learn on this subject. And if you want it to be worth it you'll have to learn a lot. Before you start learning how to design/pick right subwoofer. I suggest you to learn a bit more on room acoustics. Don't rush it.
This is referred to poorly designed ported subwoofers. With sealed you can't screw up unless you build it too small. But with ported there is more math involved. Sealed are tight and can play rock and similar really well, and have progressive roll off. Ported can be tuned lower than sealed but it has steeper roll off, combine that with poorly tuned box and you end up with subwoofer that doesn't play low, isn't tight, and just has one small chunk of bass at which it pounds.
Yes this is what i want, but doesn't everyone
I know it's hard to achieve, but i would like to try and get as close as possible within budget. Just for fun, which driver, even out of budget is capable of doing so, in smallish box (up to 80l)?Thanks for replies and patience with my noobish questions and demands, need to learn a lot and i have a problem i haven't heard a real subwoofer, so i dont know what to expect, also i have no idea what spl levels of a sub are loud for me, so i am just collecting subjective thoughts all around. Any recommended links about sub building?
I will probably be able to get better price with car sub in here, as they are much more widely spread. I've read that atleast some car subwoofers aren't good for home use. What parameters should i look for in car subs for them to be ok for home? Or should i just throw bunch of them into winisd ( when i learn to work with it) and compare ? Any advices in this field?
I will probably go with something like Modding Project:Subwoofer by MetkuMods - Because you love your hardware! in ~50L and maybe add another one later, to match aprox performance of dayton 12-15 in 100L, which i was inclined to at the beginning as they are reviewed pretty well (if i understand it correctly it should be around the same, even better, because of stronger combined motor strenght etc, do I?)
I am a little concerned about opinions around the web about 2 smaller subs creating somehow different, less "massive" deep bass as 1 larger, but i think that advantage of 2 sub placed from each other making room response more linear is even bigger advantage.
I will build also 25l sealed box, as simulated in the link (small raw mdf box should be cheap) just to compare the difference of sealed vs ported version of the same driver, so i would know for the future.
The built in the link has BR placed in the back, which looks cool. What is the minimum distance of BR from wall?
Is it better to use plate amp, or something line inuke 1000 with dsp (which is cheaper and with power to run the second in the future, i don't mind having amp and sub separately)? Will i need subsonic filter? Maybe adjustable one would be cool, if i discover that lower frequencies are doing a real mess in my room. I will be running it from yamaha rx-v 1900 which already has some equalization and sub crossover setting.
Thank you guys for all inputs, also for stx solution which looks really interesting, especially for the price, but i simply wanted something better this time.
Any suggestions/corrections of my thinking? As i mentioned i have very little knowledge, only stuff i got from forums here and there
I am a little concerned about opinions around the web about 2 smaller subs creating somehow different, less "massive" deep bass as 1 larger, but i think that advantage of 2 sub placed from each other making room response more linear is even bigger advantage.
I will build also 25l sealed box, as simulated in the link (small raw mdf box should be cheap) just to compare the difference of sealed vs ported version of the same driver, so i would know for the future.
The built in the link has BR placed in the back, which looks cool. What is the minimum distance of BR from wall?
Is it better to use plate amp, or something line inuke 1000 with dsp (which is cheaper and with power to run the second in the future, i don't mind having amp and sub separately)? Will i need subsonic filter? Maybe adjustable one would be cool, if i discover that lower frequencies are doing a real mess in my room. I will be running it from yamaha rx-v 1900 which already has some equalization and sub crossover setting.
Thank you guys for all inputs, also for stx solution which looks really interesting, especially for the price, but i simply wanted something better this time.
Any suggestions/corrections of my thinking? As i mentioned i have very little knowledge, only stuff i got from forums here and there
Why is nobody replying to this thread?
Car subwoofers are usually not the best choice for home hi-fi because most of them are just junk. Most of them are weak and limp and can't perform good in bigger rooms. Car cabin is small and it's easy to make pressure in it, while in larger room, like standard living room or bedroom, you need much more force to fill it with bass. Car subwoofers are just air pumps, they can work in sealed boxes, but are really designed for ported boxes. Also, home subwoofers are usually designed to play higher frequencies and have much higher efficiency.
To me subwoofer doesn't play above 50 Hz. That's what woofer or bass driver is for.
Winisd is easy to learn program. Just find subwoofer you like, put its parameters in winisd and play with different designs.
I'm sorry, I didn't get what subwoofer are you planing to use.
What you said about using 2 smaller subs or one larger... There is a big misconception on how subwoofers work. You see, 80% of sound you will get from your sub is actually from it's box.* It's all in the box. Making a subwoofer is not just making 80L cube, drilling a hole in it and putting pipe with specific length to tune it to 30Hz. That's just not how it works. Also, if properly designed 2 10" subs will always be louder than one 12"(making them both play the same range and being the same type of subwoofer). I'd recommend 2 subs over one because you will have more even and better distributed sound as you already know. I have just one subwoofer, but I played a lot on positioning it in room and found sweet spot in which it is more that satisfying, also I don't have room for 2 of them.
I personally don't like when port is placed on opposite side from sub because that sub usually needs to be really far from the wall. I think 1 meter is the minimum (some require up to 3 meters), but it all depends on too much things to be for sure. Like I said before where sub is in the room is of big importance. First because in one place you won't like it visually, but somewhere where it doesn't look out of place might not be its good acoustic spot. Your whole room plays role in how it sounds. Move one closet just 10-20 cm in one direction and you might lose half of your bass. That is extreme example but it can happen.
Use amp that you like. If you like inuke, use it. If you want active subs, use plate amp. There will be no difference in sound. I wanted to recommend Behringer NU1000DSP iNuke amp as its EQ and xover should be more than enough to set up your sub properly.
Ask if something is not clear as I tend to miss or answer superficially when typing. I'm more of a verbal person, plus English is my second language that I rarely use.
*90% of all percentages on internet are made up
Car subwoofers are usually not the best choice for home hi-fi because most of them are just junk. Most of them are weak and limp and can't perform good in bigger rooms. Car cabin is small and it's easy to make pressure in it, while in larger room, like standard living room or bedroom, you need much more force to fill it with bass. Car subwoofers are just air pumps, they can work in sealed boxes, but are really designed for ported boxes. Also, home subwoofers are usually designed to play higher frequencies and have much higher efficiency.
To me subwoofer doesn't play above 50 Hz. That's what woofer or bass driver is for.
Winisd is easy to learn program. Just find subwoofer you like, put its parameters in winisd and play with different designs.
I'm sorry, I didn't get what subwoofer are you planing to use.
What you said about using 2 smaller subs or one larger... There is a big misconception on how subwoofers work. You see, 80% of sound you will get from your sub is actually from it's box.* It's all in the box. Making a subwoofer is not just making 80L cube, drilling a hole in it and putting pipe with specific length to tune it to 30Hz. That's just not how it works. Also, if properly designed 2 10" subs will always be louder than one 12"(making them both play the same range and being the same type of subwoofer). I'd recommend 2 subs over one because you will have more even and better distributed sound as you already know. I have just one subwoofer, but I played a lot on positioning it in room and found sweet spot in which it is more that satisfying, also I don't have room for 2 of them.
I personally don't like when port is placed on opposite side from sub because that sub usually needs to be really far from the wall. I think 1 meter is the minimum (some require up to 3 meters), but it all depends on too much things to be for sure. Like I said before where sub is in the room is of big importance. First because in one place you won't like it visually, but somewhere where it doesn't look out of place might not be its good acoustic spot. Your whole room plays role in how it sounds. Move one closet just 10-20 cm in one direction and you might lose half of your bass. That is extreme example but it can happen.
Use amp that you like. If you like inuke, use it. If you want active subs, use plate amp. There will be no difference in sound. I wanted to recommend Behringer NU1000DSP iNuke amp as its EQ and xover should be more than enough to set up your sub properly.
Ask if something is not clear as I tend to miss or answer superficially when typing. I'm more of a verbal person, plus English is my second language that I rarely use.
*90% of all percentages on internet are made up
Thanks for reply i am inclined to build the sub in link in previous post. Seas l26roy based 50l vented and build also the 25l sealed (that he simulated) to compare the sound. What i was refering to with 2small vs 1 larger is the subjective notion i find a lot on the internet, that even if 2 smaller ones playing the same spl on hz, sound comming from 1 large is somehow "bigger", which i dont understand how is that possible, cause it's all physics. thats why i am still playing with idea of building one large 12-15" in 80-100L, For example the ultimax, which if i am buying inuke either way, isn't much more expensive, but the size is kind of a problem - i don't know if i am ready to have such a large box in a room.
i am inclined to build the sub in link in previous post. Seas l26roy based 50l vented and build also the 25l sealed (that he simulated) to compare the sound. What i was refering to with 2small vs 1 larger is the subjective notion i find a lot on the internet, that even if 2 smaller ones playing the same spl on hz, sound comming from 1 large is somehow "bigger", which i dont understand how is that possible, cause it's all physics. thats why i am still playing with idea of building one large 12-15" in 80-100L, For example the ultimax, which if i am buying inuke either way, isn't much more expensive, but the size is kind of a problem - i don't know if i am ready to have such a large box in a room.
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It is not just possible but a fact when you take in consideration that those people will tune them different. They will tune bigger sub lower and smaller subs higher, that is also what manufacturers recommend. I doubt I have ever seen manufacturer recommended enclosure that made sense to me.
Why are you considering that seas driver. That is not a subwoofer but a bass driver. You said you need subwoofer.
You can find graph of this driver in 28L closed box. You already have that.
D1001-04 L26ROY
You can find graph of this driver in 28L closed box. You already have that.
D1001-04 L26ROY
Icetorch... You'll have to explain to Mr Linkwitz that this isn't a subwoofer...
He used it before peerless XLS...Those Seas are cheaper in europe than peerless. That is the key. It's not at all a simple "car woofer" ^^
What confused you is the big bandwith, as seas worked a lot on lowering inductance, and added a copper cap.
It is pretty the same thing with the stx 10.500.8.f.a.fc.x i recommanded with copper cap too and triple demodulation ring...
Just look at their xmax and xmech, they compare easily with the best of peerless subs in the same size range.
SEAS The Art Of Sound Perfection
And icetorch, how are you making coherent crossover if your subs are not working above 50hz ? Don't ways need to add coherently with crossover?... Don't you ear some sound at 1/2 octave higher using 24 db/oct filter ? (ie.only 12db lower) Or are you saying us that subwoofer are crossed at 25hz ???? (so -24db @50hz) => your "bass drivers" so need to go below that...hmmmm...
^^
He used it before peerless XLS...Those Seas are cheaper in europe than peerless. That is the key. It's not at all a simple "car woofer" ^^
What confused you is the big bandwith, as seas worked a lot on lowering inductance, and added a copper cap.
It is pretty the same thing with the stx 10.500.8.f.a.fc.x i recommanded with copper cap too and triple demodulation ring...
Just look at their xmax and xmech, they compare easily with the best of peerless subs in the same size range.
SEAS The Art Of Sound Perfection
And icetorch, how are you making coherent crossover if your subs are not working above 50hz ? Don't ways need to add coherently with crossover?... Don't you ear some sound at 1/2 octave higher using 24 db/oct filter ? (ie.only 12db lower) Or are you saying us that subwoofer are crossed at 25hz ???? (so -24db @50hz) => your "bass drivers" so need to go below that...hmmmm...
^^
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it was advised as a good 10" sub driver by guys in this thread. also Modding Project:Subwoofer by MetkuMods - Because you love your hardware! graph looks pretty subwoofery in vented for a 50l enclosure. I've read about this driver only good things (for its size) its also presented as sub https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/subwoofer-speaker-kits/seas-l26roy-subwoofer-kit/ and many places different, it is also used by linkwitz for a subwoofer duty. But if you know about better driver uz to 250e, which will play better in ~50L, i will gladly take your advice
It's not subwoofer to me if it can't even play 30Hz. What I mean by play? You can find speakers at stores that have range form 20Hz to 20kHz, but if you buy it and connect to your amplifier you will realize that it barely plays 40Hz, that 20Hz you will hear only if you play 20Hz tone and turn amp to the max and probably damage speakers. And in fact it wont even be sine 20Hz but its membrane distorting.
If I say my speaker plays 20 Hz I mean it really plays that 20Hz. When you watch the movie, you will feel that canon fire, you can hear distant thunderstorm and other movie effects. It is the same when I say it plays only up to 50 Hz, that means that sound from that speaker above 50Hz is not audible, some other speaker picks up from that point. Of course my sub will play above 50Hz, and my speakers will play below, but you won't hear that sound from them.
You know that crossing over speakers is all about fine tuning the spot when one speaker stops giving you sound and other starts. Any bump of + or - 6 dB is way too much for me. When I see roll off of one subwoofer I look at its -6dB and say that sub doesn't play that frequency. You can now speak of room gain and other stuff.
If I say my speaker plays 20 Hz I mean it really plays that 20Hz. When you watch the movie, you will feel that canon fire, you can hear distant thunderstorm and other movie effects. It is the same when I say it plays only up to 50 Hz, that means that sound from that speaker above 50Hz is not audible, some other speaker picks up from that point. Of course my sub will play above 50Hz, and my speakers will play below, but you won't hear that sound from them.
You know that crossing over speakers is all about fine tuning the spot when one speaker stops giving you sound and other starts. Any bump of + or - 6 dB is way too much for me. When I see roll off of one subwoofer I look at its -6dB and say that sub doesn't play that frequency. You can now speak of room gain and other stuff.
HI, any fruits of that research? Basically i am looking for best driver for sub up to 250eur in EU to fit in 50l.
I've been playing with winisd a little. From what i know so far, i tried several drivers in several box sizes, with their rms wattage to get max spl curve. The linkwitz transform for sealed boxes made wonders to spl curves, than i saw cone excursion graf, which became the limiting factor. Am i doing it right? Any other factors i need to consider?
Even after reading about it, i am still confused about qts parameter. The final qts in box should determine the "tightness" of bass, i understand it as subs ability to start and stop producing sound really fast - as needed by recording. Vented boxes have no final qts in winisd, how is the "tightness" measured there? I mean i don't want to end up with sub, that with bass kick will wobble for another xy ms like a fat *** after a slap, cause thats producing sound not present in recording. Please correct me in stuff if i am understanding it not right.
I've been playing with winisd a little. From what i know so far, i tried several drivers in several box sizes, with their rms wattage to get max spl curve. The linkwitz transform for sealed boxes made wonders to spl curves, than i saw cone excursion graf, which became the limiting factor. Am i doing it right? Any other factors i need to consider?
Even after reading about it, i am still confused about qts parameter. The final qts in box should determine the "tightness" of bass, i understand it as subs ability to start and stop producing sound really fast - as needed by recording. Vented boxes have no final qts in winisd, how is the "tightness" measured there? I mean i don't want to end up with sub, that with bass kick will wobble for another xy ms like a fat *** after a slap
, cause thats producing sound not present in recording. Please correct me in stuff if i am understanding it not right.
One thing to bear in mind is the room it will go in. At least here in UK walls are solid (brick) and rooms are often small. In America walls are often floppy (wood frames) and rooms are huge. I think I can fit my whole ground floor into what was the Den when I lived in chicago.
What this is leading to is room gain. In my tiny living room (11ftx12ft) I would need to start rolling off a sub at around 60Hz to keep in line with room gain, which is one reason why UK is the land of diddy minimonitors on stands.
I am a fan of Dr. Geddes approach with multiple subs if you have somewhere to put them.
The other thing to bear in mind (without starting an argument) is that bass 'kick' is often way higher up the sound spectrum than a sub will produce. The sub produces very little music. Tight bass is the job of the 300-3000Hz part of the speaker chain. Counter-intuitive I know, but true.
What you want to avoid is the 'jack rabbit' thump thump that an undersized ported box with peaky response around 50Hz often gives.
What this is leading to is room gain. In my tiny living room (11ftx12ft) I would need to start rolling off a sub at around 60Hz to keep in line with room gain, which is one reason why UK is the land of diddy minimonitors on stands.
I am a fan of Dr. Geddes approach with multiple subs if you have somewhere to put them.
The other thing to bear in mind (without starting an argument) is that bass 'kick' is often way higher up the sound spectrum than a sub will produce. The sub produces very little music. Tight bass is the job of the 300-3000Hz part of the speaker chain. Counter-intuitive I know, but true.
What you want to avoid is the 'jack rabbit' thump thump that an undersized ported box with peaky response around 50Hz often gives.
does it make much sence to calculate with something different than http://www.speakerbuilding.com/content/1020/rge.gif ?? If yes, how should i calculate (any links?)
If i should incorporate that graph to spl graph of projected woofer, it makes the work much much easier to get flatish theoretical spl curve to 20hz or so
If i should incorporate that graph to spl graph of projected woofer, it makes the work much much easier to get flatish theoretical spl curve to 20hz or so
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