Hello all, wondering about building sub and have a few questions for more experienced crew
.
1. In general from what i've been reading you can pretty easily build better sub for a price compared to retail stuff, what is the approximate ratio? (i mean if i build active sub ~500e, what might be retail price of similar commercial sub? )
2. Is it still viable to build your own sub with better performance/price ratio compared to shop subs with European loudspeaker prices? (nearly 2x US, for example parts-express prices) You can get aprox eu prices here
If the answer to 2nd question is: yes, you can do much better with diy even with your ridiculous eu prices, then please if you could recommend a sub that:
(from most importatnt)
1- up to ~400e (could be higher if worth it) speaker + amp in EU prices (without enclosure)
2- MUST be evidently better value than commercial sub of that price range
3- up to 80l internal vol, but prefer as small as possible
4- should be able to handle music well - as bass support to mains
5- should be able to handle movies and 20hz reasonably, not saying flat to 20, reasonably loud with room gain.
5- SPL - offcourse as high as possible, but it's a tradeoff for other stuff, it will be placed in rather small room ~ 4x6m, so reasonable for that
6- prefferably allready documented project
considering daytons, peerless, read a lot of good stuff also about eminence lab12 which is ~200e
Want to have sub with great performance/price ratio and with reasonable compromise between stats. Thanks for any recommendations/links.
.1. In general from what i've been reading you can pretty easily build better sub for a price compared to retail stuff, what is the approximate ratio? (i mean if i build active sub ~500e, what might be retail price of similar commercial sub? )
2. Is it still viable to build your own sub with better performance/price ratio compared to shop subs with European loudspeaker prices? (nearly 2x US, for example parts-express prices) You can get aprox eu prices here
If the answer to 2nd question is: yes, you can do much better with diy even with your ridiculous eu prices, then please if you could recommend a sub that:
(from most importatnt)
1- up to ~400e (could be higher if worth it) speaker + amp in EU prices (without enclosure)
2- MUST be evidently better value than commercial sub of that price range
3- up to 80l internal vol, but prefer as small as possible
4- should be able to handle music well - as bass support to mains
5- should be able to handle movies and 20hz reasonably, not saying flat to 20, reasonably loud with room gain.
5- SPL - offcourse as high as possible, but it's a tradeoff for other stuff, it will be placed in rather small room ~ 4x6m, so reasonable for that
6- prefferably allready documented project
considering daytons, peerless, read a lot of good stuff also about eminence lab12 which is ~200e
Want to have sub with great performance/price ratio and with reasonable compromise between stats. Thanks for any recommendations/links.
Hi,
I'm glad you're interested in building your own subwoofer. This is pretty much how it goes:
1. If you know what you are doing for 500e you can easily build 2x better sub (if not 3 - 4x times better) than retail. Even though retail subs are specifically made for home usage they genuinely don't satisfy me. They can be loud, but not low enough or low but not loud enough or sound muddy.
2. Subwoofer prices in Europe (Croatia here) are really high. Speakers in general are overpriced. But in my opinion you're better of building your own sub (if experienced enough).
I can't recommend sub for you sorry, not experienced enough in that topic. I used cheap 100e sub and made it for home usage. I don't care for box size so mine is a bit bigger than you'd like. 110 L internal and more than 250L external volume, not sure, I'd have to measure it for precise specs. Now, since I have transformers and heatsinks spare it is really cheap for me to build my own amplifiers with active crossovers (amp designs can be found on this forum). I'm not sure is it worth to you because amps are expensive if you buy everything and build them or buy commercial ones. My sub plays really clean and loud from 20-50Hz. It can go as low as 14 Hz but you don't hear it, just feel it in your body and it's not as strong as 20. Really steep roll off. I use it in range between 20-40 Hz since my speakers can handle down to 40Hz extremely well.
In general, if you have something to start with (good amp, knowledge on building subs, most expensive part for diy amp like heat sinks, transformers, condensers (I even have woodworking shop)) it is more than worth it to build it on your own. But if you are starting from nothing, you have to buy amplifier, xover, subwoofer, wood, I'm not sure it's worth it.
I'm glad you're interested in building your own subwoofer. This is pretty much how it goes:
1. If you know what you are doing for 500e you can easily build 2x better sub (if not 3 - 4x times better) than retail. Even though retail subs are specifically made for home usage they genuinely don't satisfy me. They can be loud, but not low enough or low but not loud enough or sound muddy.
2. Subwoofer prices in Europe (Croatia here) are really high. Speakers in general are overpriced. But in my opinion you're better of building your own sub (if experienced enough).
I can't recommend sub for you sorry, not experienced enough in that topic. I used cheap 100e sub and made it for home usage. I don't care for box size so mine is a bit bigger than you'd like. 110 L internal and more than 250L external volume, not sure, I'd have to measure it for precise specs. Now, since I have transformers and heatsinks spare it is really cheap for me to build my own amplifiers with active crossovers (amp designs can be found on this forum). I'm not sure is it worth to you because amps are expensive if you buy everything and build them or buy commercial ones. My sub plays really clean and loud from 20-50Hz. It can go as low as 14 Hz but you don't hear it, just feel it in your body and it's not as strong as 20. Really steep roll off. I use it in range between 20-40 Hz since my speakers can handle down to 40Hz extremely well.
In general, if you have something to start with (good amp, knowledge on building subs, most expensive part for diy amp like heat sinks, transformers, condensers (I even have woodworking shop)) it is more than worth it to build it on your own. But if you are starting from nothing, you have to buy amplifier, xover, subwoofer, wood, I'm not sure it's worth it.
thanks for reply. I was thinking about buying inuke 1000 or something similar, which is around 150e, has xover and plenty power and fidelity for sub of this class, which leaves 250-300e for a speaker. I can get wood from wood shop sawn to right size for a good price, i just need to put it together. I really don't mind the time, i enjoy stuff like that. If it's possible to get 2-4x times the sub from diy in the same price range as commercial (not including my time and i wont be able to do coating as good) , i would definitely want to try build one.
Two STX 10" :
SW.STX.10.2.500.8.F.A.FC.X - G?o?niki najtaniej,kolumny,ko?cówka mocy,kino domowe,subwoofer,samochodowe,zestawy,centralny,efektowy,driver,speakon,estradowe,hifi,wzmacniacz
13,5mm xmax, 24mm mechanical displacement...carbon cone, triple demodulation ring...300w AES (25-500hz). Seems really interesting on the paper and cheap. Just ordered one...waiting for it to test.
SW.STX.10.2.500.8.F.A.FC.X - G?o?niki najtaniej,kolumny,ko?cówka mocy,kino domowe,subwoofer,samochodowe,zestawy,centralny,efektowy,driver,speakon,estradowe,hifi,wzmacniacz
13,5mm xmax, 24mm mechanical displacement...carbon cone, triple demodulation ring...300w AES (25-500hz). Seems really interesting on the paper and cheap. Just ordered one...waiting for it to test.
It's not bad, but I like 12" better, more cone area, needs less movement for the same SPL
+ more air movement = lower bass is possible
stanieltron, what is your desired upper cut off? Also, most people buy way too much than they need. For example I have 2x Alpine Type R 12" 1222D and put them in my friends car because they were destroying my house. People can hear him when is 1km far.
In home I have diy tower speakers that work perfect from 40Hz - 20kHz and built sub that goes from 14Hz - 40Hz. It's 250W car subwoofer and it works on only 100W-150W and it is shaking everything that can be shaked, even outside of the house. Towers are 120W. Sub has to play narrow range so it can be made to be pretty loud at those frequencies. I use multiple and active variable xover for all speakers.
In your 4x6m room one Type R sub will be more than enough taking in consideration you want 20Hz and high SPL, car subwoofer is the best choice for you in my opinion. + they are designed for small boxes, also what you want.
Taken all of the above in consideration I have to write this to be perfectly honest: I'm building my house soon. In my living room that is around 5x8m I will most likely have 2x Alpine Type R 15" 750W as my subwoofers, also working from something like 40~50Hz down to 16~12Hz. I just love loud music and strong low bass. I bought them for 120e each, used, from a friend. They are more than overkill for that frequency range in that small room, everything in that room (windows, doors, furniture, etc) will be specifically made to resist shaking and making noise on that high SPL.
+ more air movement = lower bass is possible
stanieltron, what is your desired upper cut off? Also, most people buy way too much than they need. For example I have 2x Alpine Type R 12" 1222D and put them in my friends car because they were destroying my house. People can hear him when is 1km far.
In home I have diy tower speakers that work perfect from 40Hz - 20kHz and built sub that goes from 14Hz - 40Hz. It's 250W car subwoofer and it works on only 100W-150W and it is shaking everything that can be shaked, even outside of the house. Towers are 120W. Sub has to play narrow range so it can be made to be pretty loud at those frequencies. I use multiple and active variable xover for all speakers.
In your 4x6m room one Type R sub will be more than enough taking in consideration you want 20Hz and high SPL, car subwoofer is the best choice for you in my opinion. + they are designed for small boxes, also what you want.
Taken all of the above in consideration I have to write this to be perfectly honest: I'm building my house soon. In my living room that is around 5x8m I will most likely have 2x Alpine Type R 15" 750W as my subwoofers, also working from something like 40~50Hz down to 16~12Hz. I just love loud music and strong low bass. I bought them for 120e each, used, from a friend. They are more than overkill for that frequency range in that small room, everything in that room (windows, doors, furniture, etc) will be specifically made to resist shaking and making noise on that high SPL.
80 liters + 2 sub works better than one => 2 x 10" it is more than enough. 2x12" in 80liter is not so good and easy. Speaker i talk can be easily and well cross high with little slope contrary to the majority of car subs. At crossover bandwith flatness is really important. Speakers with small bandwith don t add coherently with crossover so easily... and look at the price.
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thanks for replies.
If i put my thoughts and wishes together i would like : I've recently built diy towers, it took me for ever. I've built them on the budget and with compromises. They are pretty huge, play fine, but they are not impressive for their size, price and the effort put into them. By my taste they lack mainly in bass department. I would like to build a sub that will be opposite of this - impressive (so overkill isn't a problem, it will be playing louder just once in while, it's like be a proud owner of a 300km/h car) for it's price and size and it should also help mains with bass, so it should go further up. (but maybe i will get the feeling bass is ok if the sub will just add lowest freq to the system).
I need the sub to be musical as it will be it's main purpose, play "tight" need to be able to reproduce low freq hammer like bass - no sound and cone trembling after initial boom (if that's what is in the recording), but also be able to produce 20hz in reasonable SPL, cause it's a sub and those should be able to, i cannot afford to have another one for movies.
This is my maybe childish wish, coming from little experience i have with sound in general.
I see car subwoofers have really small recommended enclosures, what i like very much. What are their downsides compared to hi-fi subs, which are usually made for much larger cabinets? for example mentioned alpine 1222D VS very popular dayton ultimax 12?
btw this is the spl graph of mains
If i put my thoughts and wishes together i would like
: I've recently built diy towers, it took me for ever. I've built them on the budget and with compromises. They are pretty huge, play fine, but they are not impressive for their size, price and the effort put into them. By my taste they lack mainly in bass department. I would like to build a sub that will be opposite of this - impressive (so overkill isn't a problem, it will be playing louder just once in while, it's like be a proud owner of a 300km/h car) for it's price and size and it should also help mains with bass, so it should go further up. (but maybe i will get the feeling bass is ok if the sub will just add lowest freq to the system).I need the sub to be musical as it will be it's main purpose, play "tight" need to be able to reproduce low freq hammer like bass - no sound and cone trembling after initial boom (if that's what is in the recording), but also be able to produce 20hz in reasonable SPL, cause it's a sub and those should be able to, i cannot afford to have another one for movies.
This is my maybe childish wish, coming from little experience i have with sound in general.
I see car subwoofers have really small recommended enclosures, what i like very much. What are their downsides compared to hi-fi subs, which are usually made for much larger cabinets? for example mentioned alpine 1222D VS very popular dayton ultimax 12?
btw this is the spl graph of mains
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(too late, cannot edit)
^^ i was looking at alpine swr and dayton ultimax serie too, but not so much easily/cheap availiable in europe, neither so much in US in fact.
But think too about reflexion in your room at those frequencies, and about the use of multiple sub.
I kwow it's only 10" and excursion is lower, but 2x seas L26roy should be really interesting, superb drivers and can be around 150€ each in europe.
Or one little monster : CSS SDX12 4249 SDX12 CSS SDX12 The SDX12 subwoofer is ideal for both home theater & car audio environments and produces 28mm xmax one way...
^^ i was looking at alpine swr and dayton ultimax serie too, but not so much easily/cheap availiable in europe, neither so much in US in fact.
But think too about reflexion in your room at those frequencies, and about the use of multiple sub.
I kwow it's only 10" and excursion is lower, but 2x seas L26roy should be really interesting, superb drivers and can be around 150€ each in europe.
Or one little monster : CSS SDX12 4249 SDX12 CSS SDX12 The SDX12 subwoofer is ideal for both home theater & car audio environments and produces 28mm xmax one way...
Bjorno is the master, so he'll probably correct me but i found this :
82L, 2x stx 10", 30-100 flat, f-3 a bit higher around ~25hz, 115db @2pi, under 400w/4ohm same filter as Bjorno master, 18mm displacement around 15hz (but mechanical displacement of those speaker is 24mm, so 6mm margin ^^ ), and 12mm around 38hz.
Simple bass-reflex with a lot of stuffing...
Is it viable ?
I get the ordered driver tonight, so i'll post photos. Won't have time now to play with and measure it
82L, 2x stx 10", 30-100 flat, f-3 a bit higher around ~25hz, 115db @2pi, under 400w/4ohm same filter as Bjorno master, 18mm displacement around 15hz (but mechanical displacement of those speaker is 24mm, so 6mm margin ^^ ), and 12mm around 38hz.
Simple bass-reflex with a lot of stuffing...
Is it viable ?
I get the ordered driver tonight, so i'll post photos. Won't have time now to play with and measure it
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The doubt is that i get more db, in smaller cabinet !
Ho...just simulated the ultimax 12" in 80liters BR...with f-3 @25hz, it hit xmax under 500w /115db max at 30hz, without being flat at all. So, correct me if i'm wrong but 2 stx 10" +/-= 1 ultimax 12" (in maximum db at same cabinet volume)
The ultimax being >>>>>>>200€ each whereas 2 stx cost only 160€, and 1 x swr12d4 found at around 180€ in local car market...
The stx possibly being built in two enclosures for more distributed bass...
Ho...just simulated the ultimax 12" in 80liters BR...with f-3 @25hz, it hit xmax under 500w /115db max at 30hz, without being flat at all. So, correct me if i'm wrong but 2 stx 10" +/-= 1 ultimax 12" (in maximum db at same cabinet volume)
The ultimax being >>>>>>>200€ each whereas 2 stx cost only 160€, and 1 x swr12d4 found at around 180€ in local car market...
The stx possibly being built in two enclosures for more distributed bass...
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thank you very much for answers. Isn't there a qts to be looked at? qts 0.35 seems to be a little to far from the "ideal" 0,7. Isn't the bass "tightness" or how fast can cone stop still somehow represented in qts? As i said my knowledge is limited, i'm just worried, i don't want to get a sub with sound of commercial HTs , which are unable producing "fast tight" bass. (what i understand as fast tight is that if there are 150 bpm bass hits and no sound in between, sub can play that, stop producing sound very fast and start again, not some after echo until cone stands still).
Also im wondering (again correct me pls) if 100hz is cut off high enough, if i need sub to help mains, how high is considered bass? For example tipical beat in electronic/pop music?
I will definitely consider stx and 2 subs, but for now im more intrigued by 1 box with larger driver. Are there any other suggestions for maybe 12, or 15" solutions? (15 if ok with small space would certainly look scarier). Maybe some EU manufacturer? Stx looks produces in poland, thats why their price isn't overrated. If I wanted ultimax, its price in eu includes extreme shipement fee. How would peerless or eminence lab 12 solutions compare to stx and ultimax?
Also im wondering (again correct me pls) if 100hz is cut off high enough, if i need sub to help mains, how high is considered bass? For example tipical beat in electronic/pop music?
I will definitely consider stx and 2 subs, but for now im more intrigued by 1 box with larger driver. Are there any other suggestions for maybe 12, or 15" solutions? (15 if ok with small space would certainly look scarier). Maybe some EU manufacturer? Stx looks produces in poland, thats why their price isn't overrated. If I wanted ultimax, its price in eu includes extreme shipement fee. How would peerless or eminence lab 12 solutions compare to stx and ultimax?
Cannot remember where, but "master" bjorno explained (quoting somewhere else) that with powerful moter, any qts can be reached with stuffing. The stx having the big avantage of huge bandwith. Someone correct me if i'm wrong, but the idea for crossing right is that there is no big problem in the response of a way at -20db. So if using a filter of 18db/oct, you want a linear response from the cut frequency, to one octave higher. If you cross at 100hz, your sub need to be flat to 200hz.
The STX bass reflex simulation reach flatness to 500hz. So, with a 24db/oct, your sure to be good crossing to 250hz. But at this point, you get localisation problems...150hz should be better. I think i remember bjorno advising 125hz.
But with the STX, crossing at 125hz, with only 12db/octave would not be such a problem. 500hz would be 24db lower. But it would need a midbass capable of doing the same thing in lows...
The STX bass reflex simulation reach flatness to 500hz. So, with a 24db/oct, your sure to be good crossing to 250hz. But at this point, you get localisation problems...150hz should be better. I think i remember bjorno advising 125hz.
But with the STX, crossing at 125hz, with only 12db/octave would not be such a problem. 500hz would be 24db lower. But it would need a midbass capable of doing the same thing in lows...
Sorry...it's me again...
Ultimax 15" in 80L closed hit xmax @800w @ 30hz with 17-120 LR4 filter and simulate 117db, but with 25hz at -9db....even only 110db@25hz without high pass...
800w been the max power of the ultimax, you have to take in account maybe -2/-4db of power compression....
I've been a just a bit conservative with the 2x stx 10" BR stuffed. They can hit 117db too under 485w (still far from 300+300w aes). But they do it with 25hz at f-3...
If you don't like the STX, you can go with 2 x SEAS L26ROY : used by linkwitz himself... those are beast. 10kg each...(VS 12,7kg for 1 ultimax 15...even if weight don't mean so much) A bit more bandwith than STX, more powerful motor, lower fs, a bit higher excursion. around 150/160 each.
Generally 2 small sub will have more bandwith, and so will cross easily than one for the price.
Ultimax 15" in 80L closed hit xmax @800w @ 30hz with 17-120 LR4 filter and simulate 117db, but with 25hz at -9db....even only 110db@25hz without high pass...
800w been the max power of the ultimax, you have to take in account maybe -2/-4db of power compression....
I've been a just a bit conservative with the 2x stx 10" BR stuffed. They can hit 117db too under 485w (still far from 300+300w aes). But they do it with 25hz at f-3...
If you don't like the STX, you can go with 2 x SEAS L26ROY : used by linkwitz himself... those are beast. 10kg each...(VS 12,7kg for 1 ultimax 15...even if weight don't mean so much) A bit more bandwith than STX, more powerful motor, lower fs, a bit higher excursion. around 150/160 each.
Generally 2 small sub will have more bandwith, and so will cross easily than one for the price.
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Thanks, i will probably go with smaller sub and add second if needed. Was jusy wondering, i often read about sealed subs to be more musical than ported (ultimax was sealed vs stx ported) could you please explain "musical" difference between ported and closed? Also is there any dri er doing even better than seas ? The more i think about it the more i get back to idea i want a small sub.
Just seen you already ask for this in august, telling you got a small room. You'll have to deal with room reflexion... So closed box is a "good idea" because at most lower frequencies, will be at lower volume, and with "fast group delay"...but the same can be achieved with other kind of box playing with hornresp with this goal in mind. I understand why you "want" a qts of 0,7...
I really advise you to use multiple sub in such conditions... Of at least, if you don't want to trust, try some online frequency room response simulator...
Not the best, but it's the only i found that works at work : hunecke.de | Loudspeakers Calculator It work well to show how much at least the fact that placement affect a lot response...
So closed box works well , because they have less low end... they have a bit less distortion, but that is only something you here if you push your speakers hard. Closed box for same low end extension, needs to be bigger. It's physics. And closed box have lower group delay. But...only because we generally build bass reflex, allowing big group delay...But, you really have to focus on room reflexion. That is the biggest problem at low frequencies. I calculated it one time, don't remember exactly, but was something like a sound of a 35hz sin wave in my room will travel it 2 or 3 the room in one period. (difficult to translate...ggggrrr).
Personnally, i can't push sound hard, because it became awful. Having changed 11 time of home, each time my computer monitors sound differents. And a friend that didn't like 4 years ago in another home, wants now the same eared in my new home, whereas myself i don't like now how they sound here ^^
Don't know better then the seas for such a work. You don't really want higher xmax, because the more the cone move, the less it is linear...
And as for room, the more low, the more it's box that will dictate how speaker respond.
I really advise you to use multiple sub in such conditions... Of at least, if you don't want to trust, try some online frequency room response simulator...
Not the best, but it's the only i found that works at work : hunecke.de | Loudspeakers Calculator It work well to show how much at least the fact that placement affect a lot response...
So closed box works well , because they have less low end... they have a bit less distortion, but that is only something you here if you push your speakers hard. Closed box for same low end extension, needs to be bigger. It's physics. And closed box have lower group delay. But...only because we generally build bass reflex, allowing big group delay...But, you really have to focus on room reflexion. That is the biggest problem at low frequencies. I calculated it one time, don't remember exactly, but was something like a sound of a 35hz sin wave in my room will travel it 2 or 3 the room in one period. (difficult to translate...ggggrrr).
Personnally, i can't push sound hard, because it became awful. Having changed 11 time of home, each time my computer monitors sound differents. And a friend that didn't like 4 years ago in another home, wants now the same eared in my new home, whereas myself i don't like now how they sound here ^^
Don't know better then the seas for such a work. You don't really want higher xmax, because the more the cone move, the less it is linear...
And as for room, the more low, the more it's box that will dictate how speaker respond.
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