Hi 18Hurts,
Post #100: "...I want the lower tuning for pipe organs and the like--the LAB 12 won't do that....".
The above mentioned version of the Eminence LAB12 in a tapped horn may not go as low as the single version of the Kraken using the JBL GTO1214, but that does not mean that a similar sized TH with the Eminence LAB12 does not go just as deep, or maybe deeper.
Maybe you could put Hornresp to use and let us know.
Regards,
Post #100: "...I want the lower tuning for pipe organs and the like--the LAB 12 won't do that....".
The above mentioned version of the Eminence LAB12 in a tapped horn may not go as low as the single version of the Kraken using the JBL GTO1214, but that does not mean that a similar sized TH with the Eminence LAB12 does not go just as deep, or maybe deeper.
Maybe you could put Hornresp to use and let us know.
Regards,
I like the LAB 12 driver and always wondered why the designs for it never really included 16Hz types considering it has such a low Fs of 22Hz. The single JBL as a 18Hz sub fits my size and weight requirements and if I blow the $96 driver into the recycle bin--less painful.
I know Vas has an effect on the size of a horn to some degree, not sure how much though. The LAB 12 is 4.4 cubic feet with the JBL 1214 a much smaller 2.05 cubic feet. The LAB 12 is larger than the Kraken and not tuned as low, is the Vas being half with the JBL the major contributor?
I have 6 weeks to learn Horn Response and model various drivers and use the Kraken as a template. I need to take my plate subwoofer out that is going to drive the Kraken and see if it is a 4 or 8 ohm amplifier--if it is 8 ohms I can use the dual VC version of the JBL and run it at 8 ohms. The Vas on the dual voice coil is 66 liters VS 58.2 liters of the single VC so it must be verified with Horn Response to modify the design if required. Since the dual has a Vas 13.4% higher than the single--do I make the path 13.4% wider to compensate? That would lower the compression ratio a bit and the dominoes start to fall. If so, that is fine as it will still work with two sheets of plywood.
Looking forward to getting better with Horn Response, my initial foray using my 10" TB sub I have laying around was close but showed I need to get more fluid in my understanding of all the parameters before taking blade to wood.
According to tuning and maxSPL, they are almost identical. The Kraken 112 is
about 0.5 dB louder due to the larger Xmax and T&S-parameters that better
suits a horn tuned to slightly below 20 Hz.
In a TH, VAS should be low and fs about 1.4 octaves above the tuning point
of the horn. In that case, the JBL-driver excels the LAB 12. The LAB 12
would like a lower tuned horn in my point of view. That is seen in the round
bump in the simulated (the measured response shows otherwise) freq.
response of the LAB-TH compared to the Kraken. Seeing them together in
the 2pi-plot also makes me want to comment the drop in low freq. (20 Hz)
for Kraken. The horns are designed this way to better fit the room gain,
making the bass less boomy and more tight.
To sum up, after seeing the measured response of the LAB 12 and have done
some simulations I would say for practical use, the horns have very similar
performance, both in SPL and low freq. The difference as I see it the driver
cost and the additional inductor needed for the LAB 12 horn, also to mention
the dimensions, high and thin or low and wide. Pick your choise I am sure
both horns will satisfy your needs.
An other thing not mentioned in the drawings. Please use some foam in the
folds, as in the LAB 12-horn. It will make the horn sound more dynamic and
cleen.
The sensitivity of the driver is not directly translatable to the horn
sensitivity. It rather depends on the compression ratio and BL factor.
The JBL 15" has too low BL for a 15"-driver to work well in a TH. Your better
of with the Kraken 212 then instead.
I already have the Lab TH and enjoy it for Home Theater use. Was just curious how the Kraken stacks up...as you and the sims confirmed. They are pretty darn similar.
One nice thing about the Lab TH is the mouth exit location. I have mine lying on its side, and it acts as a stand for my TV. If you do that with the Kraken the mouth would be pointing up towards the ceiling. Unless you change it's exit location
One nice thing about the Lab TH is the mouth exit location. I have mine lying on its side, and it acts as a stand for my TV. If you do that with the Kraken the mouth would be pointing up towards the ceiling. Unless you change it's exit location
Hi Petter,
I agree that main difference is the driver cost, that's why I'm happy that Spuddy has made the leap, and build your initial design. The LAB12 may also be the more rugged driver, but I'm in no position to more than guess at that. The JBL's are more than adequate for home use.
Thanks to you and Spuddy for all the additional inspiration.
Regards,
I agree that main difference is the driver cost, that's why I'm happy that Spuddy has made the leap, and build your initial design. The LAB12 may also be the more rugged driver, but I'm in no position to more than guess at that. The JBL's are more than adequate for home use.
Thanks to you and Spuddy for all the additional inspiration.
Regards,
For my first tapped horn, it will be the Kraken 1x12
My family voted for the Kraken 1x12 over the LAB 12 due to portability to move it around for cookouts etc. A 16Hz LAB 12 TH would be great but it very large in comparison and I can always build a second Kraken 1x12 if needed. By nature I have to know what I'm building so learning HR is the top priority at this point. The dual voice coil version of the JBL interests me so at least I get to add something to the design. You can bet I'll be modeling the LAB 12 for 16Hz through Horn Response as a mental exercise--I don't "need" it but my wife might get into pipe organ music some day.
Now back to the tutorials on Horn Response and reading through all the post on DIY audio so I can get to 100%.
My family voted for the Kraken 1x12 over the LAB 12 due to portability to move it around for cookouts etc. A 16Hz LAB 12 TH would be great but it very large in comparison and I can always build a second Kraken 1x12 if needed. By nature I have to know what I'm building so learning HR is the top priority at this point. The dual voice coil version of the JBL interests me so at least I get to add something to the design. You can bet I'll be modeling the LAB 12 for 16Hz through Horn Response as a mental exercise--I don't "need" it but my wife might get into pipe organ music some day.
Now back to the tutorials on Horn Response and reading through all the post on DIY audio so I can get to 100%.
Personally I don't think this sub would suit music playback very well.
Look how things get above 70hz or so in the sim. You're not really getting a clean flat 2 octaves out of this horn...And unless you have some large mains, the subwoofer will be trying to play higher than that 70hz...
I know you said you wanted it for pipe organ playback, but that's probably one of the few types of music which has content under 30hz...
Also with a horn of this size (path length) you need a good deal of delay set up via DSP for your mAins to keep things from sounding muddy
Look how things get above 70hz or so in the sim. You're not really getting a clean flat 2 octaves out of this horn...And unless you have some large mains, the subwoofer will be trying to play higher than that 70hz...
I know you said you wanted it for pipe organ playback, but that's probably one of the few types of music which has content under 30hz...
Also with a horn of this size (path length) you need a good deal of delay set up via DSP for your mAins to keep things from sounding muddy
My requirements are rather odd,
A pair of very efficient (96dB 1w/1m) vertical line arrays with 12 five inch woofers and 48 10mm tweeters per speaker is the "garage" system. An old 45 watt Pioneer receiver with 15Hz highpass filter switch drives the arrays to loudness levels I require for inside the garage AND outside for cookouts. The poor 120 watt sub amp pushing a ported 12 at 30 to 80Hz struggles during classical music and gives up outside.
Figure the Kraken 1x12 used by itself inside the garage will give me the 65Hz and below hit the arrays won't do and be efficient enough at 120 watts corner loaded for musical peaks. Two of them outside for the monthly cookout will use a much more powerful amp so easy to match up to the arrays. The sound guy at the local church wants to hear vertical line arrays as an experiment in sound and load up organ music to hear what a tapped horn can do. The church stuff will use their amps, DSP, EQ etc so I'll get to play with solutions in real time to see how smooth I can make the system play.
The 1812 Overture, pipe organs and the like got those discs banned from the house HT system--the garage is my last stop since I'm not into headphones.
My wife likes the garage system since it allows me to play my "crazy" music out in the garage and keep her world in peace (and quiet)
I think the term for this is "mission creep"
Needed some tunes in the garage, had some old electronics around--time passes on the DIY forums and a pair of line arrays show up. Works well in the acoustic mess of a garage and I do have this old sub laying around...throw that in the mix and and sounds better.
But I want more! Thanks to Petter and the Kraken, a single 12" woofer, two sheets of wood and some effort and that is taken care of. It would make sense to build a second one for cookouts so add another one--have to have a "real" amp so...
Luckily it is now the winter season so the TH education can continue and I'll have the first one built before the snow melts. As the spring warms a second Kraken will show up for summer BBQs... The Xti and XLS series look to be the perfect solution and...
My wife hates DIY Audio...
Needed some tunes in the garage, had some old electronics around--time passes on the DIY forums and a pair of line arrays show up. Works well in the acoustic mess of a garage and I do have this old sub laying around...throw that in the mix and and sounds better.
But I want more! Thanks to Petter and the Kraken, a single 12" woofer, two sheets of wood and some effort and that is taken care of. It would make sense to build a second one for cookouts so add another one--have to have a "real" amp so...
Luckily it is now the winter season so the TH education can continue and I'll have the first one built before the snow melts. As the spring warms a second Kraken will show up for summer BBQs... The Xti and XLS series look to be the perfect solution and...
My wife hates DIY Audio...
Well...it all has to do with preferences and compromises as you know. First
of all, the horn is not built yet, so I don't think we should speculate about
the high freq. response without hard facts.
2 octaves is no problem to get. The trade of is size, sensitivity and dynamics.
The different TH I have built so far have sounded more dynamic and music
frendly the higher throat to mouth ratio there were. Also, to get decent
sensitivity, I had to sacrifice some band width. The Kraken series has been
optimized according to my personal preferences based on several builds for
example 6.5", 12", 15" and finally 18", the 18 Sound 18NLW9600.
I usually recomend to use a delay on the mains if the horn length exceeds 3
meters. Otherwise the bass tones will arrive to late with a .
18 Hurts, really looking forward to your build
The project got green lighted by the boss (my wife) with stipulations--it will start after Christmas since real world projects are sucking up the time. I think my Christmas present will weigh around 7.75 KG in a box about a certain size.
I was pondering the delay and due to having to back up about 4 meters from the line arrays, should I move the Kraken along the side wall forward? The optimal listening position in the garage has a couch located in the spot so I'm thinking if the Kraken sits next to the couch that would increase the perceived output and help with the delay of the horn path?
Don't think there will be any complaints about bass capability when a tapped horn is about 30cm away from the couch you're sitting on.
From my understanding (those that are skilled with this PLEASE inform us less knowledgeable) the horn opening location is not very critical--but it's dimensions are.
Danley Sound Labs has tapped horns that have switchable output mouths--you can change the mouth to different positions. I assume this is not a critical thing so you can put the "mouth" on the front but it will change things considering horn path length. The mouth must be the same area as the side mouth so considering the front panel is not as wide--you have to go up to get the same area. This will change the horn path length which will change the tuning. Will it matter? I'm not that far with Horn Response and full understanding of horns but it might not matter in reality.
Can you make the "mouth" the same dimensions but wrap it around the front? Makes sense that it would not matter but I'm assuming you want the mouth only on the front side--you'll have to increase the height to get the same area which will change the horn path length and tuning slightly.
I'm progressing with the Kraken 1x12 and doing my research before I start cutting wood--wish I could be more informative but I'm at that critical area known as the "grey zone" smart enough to mostly understand but too ignorant to get every last specification clear. As far as I understand, the mouth should be fine with a front location as long as the area is the same as the side vent and you don't shorten the horn path length too much.
If I every write cryptic code... DIY will equal OCD.
Since the depth of the speaker is greater than the width of the opening it is
okey to make a side opening. Just make it the same height, 320 mm.
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