You reckon right, Elbert hasn't got a clue about what a tapped horn is, so he has some reading up to do! 
If the new version of the gamma has a decreased performance over the older alnico version, that just proves that the ferrite magnet in the motor has not been beefed up properly to bring the gap flux density up to that of the old alnico.
But then again, considering how strong some of those more exotic magnets are, I guess it can take a rather substantial ferrite magnet to reach the same leve..
The horn was built out of "intense and long lingering" curiosity more than the result of an objective and rational approach to the ultimate sub solution, I'll admit to that!
On a subjective, and perhaps subtly emotional level, one tends to be drawn towards the more exotic and esoteric in the secret hope that some magic-like and physics defying result will materialize from all those carefully shaped curvatures and intricate carpentry, hehe..
Probably the same psychological convolutions that fuels a not insignificant part of the HiFi and "high-end" business!
But then again, that's probably human nature, to be curious, explore and expriment.
After all, a BR or closed box isn't all that exciting is it?
If the new version of the gamma has a decreased performance over the older alnico version, that just proves that the ferrite magnet in the motor has not been beefed up properly to bring the gap flux density up to that of the old alnico.
But then again, considering how strong some of those more exotic magnets are, I guess it can take a rather substantial ferrite magnet to reach the same leve..
The horn was built out of "intense and long lingering" curiosity more than the result of an objective and rational approach to the ultimate sub solution, I'll admit to that!
On a subjective, and perhaps subtly emotional level, one tends to be drawn towards the more exotic and esoteric in the secret hope that some magic-like and physics defying result will materialize from all those carefully shaped curvatures and intricate carpentry, hehe..
Probably the same psychological convolutions that fuels a not insignificant part of the HiFi and "high-end" business!
But then again, that's probably human nature, to be curious, explore and expriment.
After all, a BR or closed box isn't all that exciting is it?
Your problem with your bass, is that you aren't using any of these:
http://www.musicdirect.com/product/73452
It'll open a whole new world of odd-io-pile bliss....
(If you believe that... I sell......)
stick with math, it doesn't lie.
http://www.musicdirect.com/product/73452
It'll open a whole new world of odd-io-pile bliss....
(If you believe that... I sell......)
stick with math, it doesn't lie.
jbell,
Once such a solutions presents it self, it all becomes so obvious!
HiFi, the alchemy of our time, hehe!
At the end of the day, I'd rather spend my money on a nice bottle of red wine, a source of long proven elevation if not of cables than at least of the mind! (within moderation of course)
You are right about the maths, but my problem (and I'm probably not alone here..) is that unless one can factor in everything (like room response, etc..) one is left to fill in some gaps with (sometimes speculative) theorization and experimentation...
Not to mention that there is a certain mastery required...
Once such a solutions presents it self, it all becomes so obvious!
HiFi, the alchemy of our time, hehe!
At the end of the day, I'd rather spend my money on a nice bottle of red wine, a source of long proven elevation if not of cables than at least of the mind!
(within moderation of course)You are right about the maths, but my problem (and I'm probably not alone here..) is that unless one can factor in everything (like room response, etc..) one is left to fill in some gaps with (sometimes speculative) theorization and experimentation...
Not to mention that there is a certain mastery required...
A bit of luck is welcome too
btw, should you choose to buy other woofers, I think it would be good sense to have a second plan about how that certain driver would work perfectly, later on
Oh, the tapped horn suggestion was only a emergency options fore your box, fore music I dont think I would go that way
The most boring as you say, a closed box with the right woofer is the way, unless one is forced towards other more complicated option, due to SPL or whatever
btw, should you choose to buy other woofers, I think it would be good sense to have a second plan about how that certain driver would work perfectly, later on
Oh, the tapped horn suggestion was only a emergency options fore your box, fore music I dont think I would go that way
The most boring as you say, a closed box with the right woofer is the way, unless one is forced towards other more complicated option, due to SPL or whatever
A very good comment tinitus!
It's actually something I'm trying to keep in the back of my mind as i consider alternative drivers. If not I'll end up with a heap of drivers (and a very empty wallet) that really won't lend themselves to any interesting use!
Ideally, a driver failing horn-service, should still be well suited to "conventional" application, preferably by converting the horn in to a closed or vented cabinet.
Looking at that visaton driver, if it fails, two of them in a BR conversion of the horn should yield a - 3 dB of 33Hz and a spl of 114 dB with the 90 W amp I'm planning to build.
Should be OK I guess..
It's actually something I'm trying to keep in the back of my mind as i consider alternative drivers. If not I'll end up with a heap of drivers (and a very empty wallet) that really won't lend themselves to any interesting use!
Ideally, a driver failing horn-service, should still be well suited to "conventional" application, preferably by converting the horn in to a closed or vented cabinet.
Looking at that visaton driver, if it fails, two of them in a BR conversion of the horn should yield a - 3 dB of 33Hz and a spl of 114 dB with the 90 W amp I'm planning to build.
Should be OK I guess..
In the past I have actually seen some doing closed TL, a reversed horn closed at the end, and very similar to the B&W "snail" principle
It would be easy and kind of make sense to convert your "horn" into that
It wouldnt seem to have any sacrifices, other than maybe not being the right volume fore any woofer
It would be easy and kind of make sense to convert your "horn" into that
It wouldnt seem to have any sacrifices, other than maybe not being the right volume fore any woofer
Its true that there are many more woofers suited fore BR, and mostly the most attractive
Good woofers fore closed are more rare...you need low Fs, at least 25hz...and higher Qts, preferably at least 0.4, where as some sub drivers have even higher Qts, theres always a risk that it gets muddy and boringly "slow"
Not all people agree with that, and sometimes you may still need real world knowledge with the specific drivers to really succeed, or some luck could be needed
The 3 woofers mentioned, SBAcoustic, Dayton 10" and the GAMMA are actually fine examples of woofers that ought to work very well in closed, fore normal musical use and not house wrecking...if specs are true, which will always be an issue
People often say that a closed is much easier to get right, I dont think it is
Good woofers fore closed are more rare...you need low Fs, at least 25hz...and higher Qts, preferably at least 0.4, where as some sub drivers have even higher Qts, theres always a risk that it gets muddy and boringly "slow"
Not all people agree with that, and sometimes you may still need real world knowledge with the specific drivers to really succeed, or some luck could be needed
The 3 woofers mentioned, SBAcoustic, Dayton 10" and the GAMMA are actually fine examples of woofers that ought to work very well in closed, fore normal musical use and not house wrecking...if specs are true, which will always be an issue
People often say that a closed is much easier to get right, I dont think it is
I've sort of gone off the idea of closed systems..
First of all; as you say, the selection of good drivers is not all that great, and secondly, the low end extension you can get from a well tuned BR system seems hard to beat.
There is also the issue of greater cone excursion with closed boxes, and we don't like that.. (that's why we find horns so sexy..*s*)
Speaking about cone excursion, things are starting to get interesting here as I'm running hornresp and WinISD sims in parallel here to check for alternative usefulness of interesting drivers...
bearing in mind that the horn will always need some EQ massage to pull down the frequencies where it is most efficient, when a driver is driven to max excursion both the horn and a BR enclosure of similar volume, there is not that much benefit to be had from the horn.
On the contrary, the BR will win out in bass extension!
oh dear...
First of all; as you say, the selection of good drivers is not all that great, and secondly, the low end extension you can get from a well tuned BR system seems hard to beat.
There is also the issue of greater cone excursion with closed boxes, and we don't like that.. (that's why we find horns so sexy..*s*)
Speaking about cone excursion, things are starting to get interesting here as I'm running hornresp and WinISD sims in parallel here to check for alternative usefulness of interesting drivers...
bearing in mind that the horn will always need some EQ massage to pull down the frequencies where it is most efficient, when a driver is driven to max excursion both the horn and a BR enclosure of similar volume, there is not that much benefit to be had from the horn.
On the contrary, the BR will win out in bass extension!
oh dear...
Anders,
In response to your suggestion:
1:
I live in a rented apartment, not on a farm.
2:
I have not completely lost it... yet..
But yeah, a larger horn sure is a tempting idea, but it just seems that with the dimensions involved, it's difficult to justify compared to what one can achieve with modern drivers in a conventional enclosure.
The RT-2 horn is after all quite managable as a piece of furniture (if veneered it will actually become a rather nice TV-stand), but anything significantly larger will just be difficult to accommodate in a domestic environment..
In response to your suggestion:
1:
I live in a rented apartment, not on a farm.
2:
I have not completely lost it... yet..
But yeah, a larger horn sure is a tempting idea, but it just seems that with the dimensions involved, it's difficult to justify compared to what one can achieve with modern drivers in a conventional enclosure.
The RT-2 horn is after all quite managable as a piece of furniture (if veneered it will actually become a rather nice TV-stand), but anything significantly larger will just be difficult to accommodate in a domestic environment..
Elbert,
I thought the added smiley should clarify my intention with my recent post
I would not write so nicely about the RT-2 horn if I had not built and listen to it myself. I really like the sound it produces, low distortion and a fast stop (essential for me).
I think something is wrong if you cannot get 40Hz out of your horn. A sim that include the whole horn path as well as measurements should clarify the situation.
I thought the added smiley should clarify my intention with my recent post
I would not write so nicely about the RT-2 horn if I had not built and listen to it myself. I really like the sound it produces, low distortion and a fast stop (essential for me).
I think something is wrong if you cannot get 40Hz out of your horn. A sim that include the whole horn path as well as measurements should clarify the situation.
No malice intended in my reply to your previous post, quite the contrary!
The reasoning behind not adding the last "external" section to the horn model I have "borrowed" from Bjornos post, was that this was actually calculated in by hornresp due to the quarter space boundary condition.
I must however say I'm not 100% convinced about this, but then again, with low frequencies and room interactions, it is sometimes difficult to draw the line...
Well, I've not given up completely on the horn yet, after all, the swap from the ill chosen Delta pro to the SEAS 13" revealed that this horn may yet have potential to be realized through selecting the right driver..
Having taken a closer look at both the gamma and the visaton, their relatively limited Xmax has given me some second thoughts, as this might not only limit them in the horn at lower frequencies, but also for secondary use in a conventional enclosure... A peerless SLS woofer with 10mm Xmax might be a more interresting option in that respect..
http://www.mamut.net/dynabel/subdet329.htm
The reasoning behind not adding the last "external" section to the horn model I have "borrowed" from Bjornos post, was that this was actually calculated in by hornresp due to the quarter space boundary condition.
I must however say I'm not 100% convinced about this, but then again, with low frequencies and room interactions, it is sometimes difficult to draw the line...
Well, I've not given up completely on the horn yet, after all, the swap from the ill chosen Delta pro to the SEAS 13" revealed that this horn may yet have potential to be realized through selecting the right driver..
Having taken a closer look at both the gamma and the visaton, their relatively limited Xmax has given me some second thoughts, as this might not only limit them in the horn at lower frequencies, but also for secondary use in a conventional enclosure... A peerless SLS woofer with 10mm Xmax might be a more interresting option in that respect..
http://www.mamut.net/dynabel/subdet329.htm
Just fore the record...about Xmax
As far as I know, every other box principle than closed will unload the driver below system resonance, with the result of excessive and uncontrolled cone movement
Now I remember once in the past when I mounted an ordinary hifi 5" midwoofer in a friends small horn, a Lowther mini acousta, which was one of my own first
This small Focal midwoofer had played wonderfully in a small closed box
But I was really surpriced that in this horn the driver moved excessively, even at low SPL
It had me puzzled, why so when no other fullrange did that, and I never got to understand why
Well, today I know why, at least I think so...the driver simply had too low Fs to work in that horn, and got unloaded too early, at a relative high frequency, where there is stll lots of music energy
I know, probably there could be other reasons as well, and it may not be that simple
A short while ago I mentioned in here that I didnt fully understand the quest fore such huge Xmax, as my double 8" ScSp in closed doesnt move much, even at loud SPL
The answer was that I doesnt play loud enough
But sure, I like Xmax and always consider that when looking at a woofer...only thing is, that it has been stated more than once that a similar woofer with shorter Xmax will always sound better, more or less
Sometimes things could seem a little more tricky than expected
As far as I know, every other box principle than closed will unload the driver below system resonance, with the result of excessive and uncontrolled cone movement
Now I remember once in the past when I mounted an ordinary hifi 5" midwoofer in a friends small horn, a Lowther mini acousta, which was one of my own first
This small Focal midwoofer had played wonderfully in a small closed box
But I was really surpriced that in this horn the driver moved excessively, even at low SPL
It had me puzzled, why so when no other fullrange did that, and I never got to understand why
Well, today I know why, at least I think so...the driver simply had too low Fs to work in that horn, and got unloaded too early, at a relative high frequency, where there is stll lots of music energy
I know, probably there could be other reasons as well, and it may not be that simple
A short while ago I mentioned in here that I didnt fully understand the quest fore such huge Xmax, as my double 8" ScSp in closed doesnt move much, even at loud SPL
The answer was that I doesnt play loud enough
But sure, I like Xmax and always consider that when looking at a woofer...only thing is, that it has been stated more than once that a similar woofer with shorter Xmax will always sound better, more or less
Sometimes things could seem a little more tricky than expected
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