High loop Gain Composite Op Amp Circuits - diyAudio
Go Back   Home > Forums > Amplifiers > Solid State

Solid State Talk all about solid state amplification.

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 15th November 2004, 05:16 PM   #1
jcx is offline jcx  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: ..
Default High loop Gain Composite Op Amp Circuits

Walt Jung has long been an advocate of 2 op amp (or op amp + buffer) composite circuits and points out their advantages – check his web site; “Op amp Audio” series

Gerald Graeme has also advocated 2 op amp composite amplifier, with high loop gain from 2 pole responses – “Amplifier Applications of Op Amps” 1999 devotes a chapter to composite op amp circuits and their compensation

This sim circuit topology is close to circuits I have built and I have verified that they can achieve measured 1KHz harmonic distortion (and 1KHz IMD from 1:1 10KHz + 11KHz) below my 160dB instrumentation limit

Click the image to open in full size.

Composite amplifiers can reduce active device contributions to audio frequency distortion to unmeasurable levels (1 V input, 20 KHz sim results: )

Click the image to open in full size.

The output op amp is a modified integrator that provides large audio frequency gain, those in the know will object that the loop phase response, which exceeds 180 degrees around 100 KHz invites oscillation or poor recovery from clipping

Click the image to open in full size.

(the Loop Gain Probe is available from the LtSpice Yahoo group files area - just cut it out and delete .prams lines if you don't want to use it)

The clipping response is greatly improved by the symmetrical clamping diode bridge that holds the input op amp to +/- 1 V output when the output op amp saturates, this means that the input op amp is held in its linear operating region, its contribution to loop gain and phase shift is minimized, and its output only has to slew ~ 1V to when recovering from saturation ((1.6 V @ 20 KHz input, V(n005) is Lt1022 output)

Click the image to open in full size.

Simple back-to-back diodes would also provide for the improved clipping response, but the bridge reduces diode capacitance and nonlinear conduction current that add directly to the feedback error voltage and cause nonlinear distortion

(distortion and phase margin # may be off slightly, I plotted those with all 1N418 diodes before it occurred to me to reduce clamp voltage with Schottkys, this means diode feedthru may be slightly higher due to higher capacitance form lower reverse bias on D1,2)
Attached Files
File Type: txt compos.asc.txt (4.3 KB, 144 views)
  Reply With Quote
Old 29th June 2006, 03:26 PM   #2
jcx is offline jcx  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: ..
I thought I might collect some of these multiloop/gain boosted composite op amp ideas, this thread is already here...

Quote:
Originally posted by jcx
Floating supply op amps may be modeled with some of the “multiple pole-zero” models that TI and Analog devices have presented in their app notes

But they don’t use them uniformly or often, many Boyle style macromodels are still being released

So you have to look inside the model to tell – Spice node 0 should not appear inside a op amp model

Once you start digging in you realize how poor many models are and you might just roll you own with 1-2 poles and a output resistance to generically play with bootstrapping

Here I point out some of the problems I had with the author of the AD8610 op amp model:

PSRR, topologies, device characteristics


The OPA227 model seems to get gain right – I‘ve not tested whether output current appears plausibly in the ps terminals – yet another layer of modeling accuracy

I have been playing for several years with power supply bootstrapped op amp circuits

One previously known composite op amp with power supply bootstrapping showing loop gain enhancement from the bootstrapping of the internal voltage gain stage is from Mohapatra and Sandman’ 1980 GB patent

The sim shows Mohapatra&Sandman’s topology with the OPA227 model, I call this a feedforward bootstrap topology

The loop gain is substantially boosted by the bootstrap connection when the load impedance Rload is high

Because the OPA227 is in series with the bootstrap amp there is no improvement in its output impedance so you can see the gain boost disappears with heavier loading

Click the image to open in full size.

The “loop error” I’ve plotted (in green) is essentially the inverse of the loop gain – at 10 KHz with the high load impedance you can see 100 dB loop gain => 1 GHz “GBW”
Attached Files
File Type: txt msbootstrap.asc.txt (5.7 KB, 58 views)
  Reply With Quote
Old 29th June 2006, 03:33 PM   #3
jcx is offline jcx  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: ..
over at headfi I'm encouraging the use of a multiloop topology with the TPA6120 (= THS6012)

posting here with the asc for those wanting to play with LtSpice

Click the image to open in full size.
Attached Files
File Type: txt balml.asc.txt (9.2 KB, 84 views)
  Reply With Quote
Old 29th June 2006, 04:01 PM   #4
mikeks is offline mikeks  United Kingdom
Account Disabled
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Animal farm
Good stuff jcx...Cheers!
  Reply With Quote
Old 29th June 2006, 04:22 PM   #5
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Sweden
Rod Elliott used to have an article at his site with a headphone amp consisting of a VFB + CFB combo. It was never a build project, but something he did to try out some samples of CFB ADSL drivers he had got. Unfortunately, that article seems not to be around anymore, and he now uses only the CFB amps as they are. Anyway, as far as I remember, his idea with the combo was to get the precision of VFB combined with the speed of CFB, and he said then it was the best headphone amp he had heard. I don't remember the details, whether there was any local feedback around each op amp, for instance.
  Reply With Quote
Old 1st July 2006, 12:36 PM   #6
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Bangalore, India
Elektor carried an article using VFB+CFB to make a very fast Composite Opamp. It was a concise article plus schematic by T.Giesberts.
__________________
Sam
  Reply With Quote
Old 2nd July 2006, 12:00 AM   #7
mfc is offline mfc  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Oregon
Default Re: High loop Gain Composite Op Amp Circuits

Quote:
Originally posted by jcx
(the Loop Gain Probe is available from the LtSpice Yahoo group files area - just cut it out and delete .prams lines if you don't want to use it)
Hi jcx,

I'd like to use the Loop Gain Probe. I downloaded it from
the LtSpice yahoo group. Using your circuit, I set .param prb=-1
and ran it. No errors in the transient analysis with .asc and .asy
files in their proper place.

I then did an AC analysis run and I can get a plot of Vout in
magnitude and phase. it looks flat out to ~300Khz.
How do I tell LtSpice to show a plot of loop gain in magnitude
and phase?

Thanks,

Mike
  Reply With Quote
Old 2nd July 2006, 03:59 AM   #8
jcx is offline jcx  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: ..
the loop gain probe uses both V and I sources to test return difference which gives the correct result anywhere in the feedback loop - the usual simplified test with just a V source works best when the impedances are mismatched by the largest amount possible so that information/energy transfer is well approximated as flowing in one direction only

to use the loop gain probe you have to run 2 analysis, as in the commented out .step in the example above, then the correct value for the loop transmission (Bode's T commonly (and sometimes approximately) "return difference", “return ratio”, “loop gain”, ”excess gain”, “feedback factor”) is given by the complicated expression at the top of the sheet, you have to copy that into the plot as the trace definition you want to display (clik on the expression, copy its text, then go to plot>add trace and paste the expression at bottom of the box)

I don't know where all of the Spice syntax for that expression is documented - the @1, @2 suffixes refer to the trace "steps" - the multiple passes of sim caused by the .step command

Loop Gain probe theory:

http://www.thekunderts.net/ken/docs/c&d2001-01.pdf

https://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/~boser...%20lecture.pdf

middlebrook paper:

http://www2.enel.ucalgary.ca/People/Haslett/Jwhgrad.htm
  Reply With Quote
Old 2nd July 2006, 05:06 AM   #9
mfc is offline mfc  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Oregon
Quote:
Originally posted by jcx
...is given by the complicated expression at the top of the sheet, you have to copy that into the plot as the trace definition you want to display (clik on the expression, copy its text, then go to plot>add trace and paste the expression at bottom of the box)
Hi,

I cut and pasted the expression:

1/(1-1/(2*(I(V:i)@1*V(p:x)@2-V(p:x)@1*I(V:i)@2)+V(p:x)@1+I(V:i)@2))
(note: is actually the text chars colon followed by p)

and LtSpice complains about unknown current requested: I(V:i)

so I found a .plt file that had this expression:

1/(1-1/(2*(I(Xp:Vi)@1*V(Xp:x)@2-V(Xp:x)@1*I(Xp:Vi)@2)+V(Xp:x)@1+I(Xp:Vi)@2))

and I cut and pasted this expression and was able to get
it to work. It duplicated your results.

Looks like the names used in the loop probe changed or something.

Thanks for the help,

Mike
  Reply With Quote
Old 30th December 2010, 09:29 PM   #10
jcx is offline jcx  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: ..
Default Black's Error Feedforward is a Composite amp too - is sub ppm good enough?

I grabbed Bob's example sim from the TPC/TMC debate in the Cordell Book thread Bob Cordell's Power amplifier book

my poking at it seems to indicate that the distortion is limited by the slow output Q and simply can't be made much better by feedback - especially the THD 20KHz that Bob likes as a simple quality metric (at least without going deep into conditional stability territory with 3-rd order or higher loop gain schemes)

if you can't fix up a amp with more feedback then the other tool is Black's Error Feedforward - rare in audio because of the difficulties power output combiner but famous none the less due to Quad’s "Current Dumping" amplifier

a error feedforward amp is defined by having 2 independent power amp paths to control the output - and the consequent difficulty of combining the outputs without their mutual loading causing unwanted additional (destabilizing) feedback

The VanderKooy Lipshitz Error Feedforward paper http://quad405.com/jaes.pdf shows several schemes - "Current Dumping" actually wraps negative feedback around the "dumper" amp stage - but 2 other schemes are shown - I chose the Parallel Feedforward from their fig 4b - which doesn't intentionally add loop feedback to the main amp and the coupling through the output impedances of the amps is minimal when used with a frequency selective power combiner

so the following is a Composite Amp using a large, slow discrete amp and a fast error feedforward op amp path
the instrumentation op amp measures the error at the diff pair input of the main amp with a gain of 10x, and then the CFA DSL driver op amp integrator provides the required error correction V drive for the Resistive leg of the L,R power output combiner network

Bob's THD 20KHz number is improved by ~20x in this sim

you will need Bob's zip file and to put my asc in the same folder with Bob's Cordell Models.txt file or you can download Bob's transistor models from his
book's site
Attached Images
File Type: png Parallel_Feedforward.png (68.2 KB, 568 views)
File Type: png Parallel_Feedforwrd.png (56.2 KB, 548 views)
Attached Files
File Type: txt John_Mod_Cordell_pff2.asc.txt (13.0 KB, 79 views)

Last edited by jcx; 30th December 2010 at 09:50 PM.
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
hi-loop gain amp mfc Solid State 49 10th January 2009 06:10 AM
Gain Blockwith Variable Loop Gain Bonsai Solid State 17 11th July 2008 02:40 PM
Loop gain question lumanauw Solid State 55 16th December 2005 09:59 PM
Gain loop formula fscarpa58 Everything Else 2 16th January 2004 11:19 AM
Open loop gain (High or low) ? JensRasmussen Solid State 19 16th September 2002 09:26 PM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 06:17 AM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ©1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2