Sorry Andrew, I disagree.
The harmonics, generally speaking, produced by small drivers are rather different than that of large diameter drivers.
Having personally built speakers with multiple small drivers - several generations of designs, as well as traditional sorts over many years, there is little doubt of this difference.
I am sure it can be measured.
It can be heard.
Scott Wurcer, at least I think it was Scott, in the more recent posts on the discrete opamp design thread made some rather interesting comments on the relationship between certain design factors and the audible quality of bass, iirc due to some IM issues. I hope it was there an not in one of Jan's Linear Audio mags that I just was reading... ha ha.
_-_-bear
bear: you were right the harmonics that each driver will produce is different for different sizes infact they are different for different materials..
a.wayne: i cannot drive Dynaudio towers properly with ice amps... they might be capable of driving a pair of 6.5 inch drivers or so i have seen people complaining about these class D amps not able to drive big drivers instead they sound flat at bass...
Interms of details im talking that can ice power give that nano details of turntables? I would rather enjoy more with a transistor amp rather than class D. The resolution is not simply enough..
Complex: yeah what complexity?
Andrew In my opinion what I see..
Mathematics is for precision of the wave
Material is for the sonic property of that material... there are many drivers, carbon, ceramic with all same size and every single parameter just the material of the cone changes the entire signature of the sound changes...
Musicality is what artist performs.. Based on what the musician plays there are alot of psycho acoustics which are very complex to describe its another world altogether..
probably what we can do best is get it mathematically correct and you end of feeling its lacking something...
Regarding the caps. I agree that they change the neutrality but its a flavour yes A FLAVOUR dont get me wrong. Any capacitor will add some color to the sound. If you are talking something perfectly mathematically flat design to eliminate the capacitors only psu could be defence grade. But like capacitors some like nichicon muse or whatever some like any other brand its just taste...
I have seen many audiophiles who say I dont need high resolution i need more mellowy... what will you do for that...
lets come to tubes which are mathematically worse for audio but its most respected in audiophiles... here one thing that everybody of us should consider is its what we want or if you are making a system to your friend probably you should show him various amplifiers with same design but with different caps or whatever he needs...
I would say example Diamond has the best youngs modulus when it comes to tweeter B&W uses it but i didnt like it because I already had a definition of what kind of signature that I like which is mathematically wrong but I like scanspeak revelator 9900 and not higherend series..
I would say finding the best materials to impress maximum number of people is what about...
rather I would call it like a recipe add whatever you want for taste or eat raw all the time which never happens in any audiophiles life...
a.wayne: i cannot drive Dynaudio towers properly with ice amps... they might be capable of driving a pair of 6.5 inch drivers or so i have seen people complaining about these class D amps not able to drive big drivers instead they sound flat at bass...
Interms of details im talking that can ice power give that nano details of turntables? I would rather enjoy more with a transistor amp rather than class D. The resolution is not simply enough..
Complex: yeah what complexity?
Andrew In my opinion what I see..
Mathematics is for precision of the wave
Material is for the sonic property of that material... there are many drivers, carbon, ceramic with all same size and every single parameter just the material of the cone changes the entire signature of the sound changes...
Musicality is what artist performs.. Based on what the musician plays there are alot of psycho acoustics which are very complex to describe its another world altogether..
probably what we can do best is get it mathematically correct and you end of feeling its lacking something...
Regarding the caps. I agree that they change the neutrality but its a flavour yes A FLAVOUR dont get me wrong. Any capacitor will add some color to the sound. If you are talking something perfectly mathematically flat design to eliminate the capacitors only psu could be defence grade. But like capacitors some like nichicon muse or whatever some like any other brand its just taste...
I have seen many audiophiles who say I dont need high resolution i need more mellowy... what will you do for that...
lets come to tubes which are mathematically worse for audio but its most respected in audiophiles... here one thing that everybody of us should consider is its what we want or if you are making a system to your friend probably you should show him various amplifiers with same design but with different caps or whatever he needs...
I would say example Diamond has the best youngs modulus when it comes to tweeter B&W uses it but i didnt like it because I already had a definition of what kind of signature that I like which is mathematically wrong but I like scanspeak revelator 9900 and not higherend series..
I would say finding the best materials to impress maximum number of people is what about...
rather I would call it like a recipe add whatever you want for taste or eat raw all the time which never happens in any audiophiles life...
I am emotionally connected with other people, some music and certain performances of it, but not with capacitors.
I can assure you that any tender feelings or otherwise you have toward capacitors are not reciprocated, capacitors are notorious for being heartless components and totally devoid of emotion, and you love in vain.
It may come as a shock but they are those who consider them as demonic devices and shun them completely, but they are totally incapable of detecting their presence if not informed of it, this is of course further proof to these people of their diabolical nature. All of thiscomes as a shock I know, and I have endeavored to break it to you in the gentlest way possible.
rcw
I can assure you that any tender feelings or otherwise you have toward capacitors are not reciprocated, capacitors are notorious for being heartless components and totally devoid of emotion, and you love in vain.
It may come as a shock but they are those who consider them as demonic devices and shun them completely, but they are totally incapable of detecting their presence if not informed of it, this is of course further proof to these people of their diabolical nature. All of thiscomes as a shock I know, and I have endeavored to break it to you in the gentlest way possible.
rcw
its great...
I have two capacitors with me A and B.
These two capacitors were plugged in and tested. In AB test found that B is better than A.
Its done 10 times out of which 8 times it was chosen as B is better.
Actually A was metalized polyster and B was plain Polypropelene.
So i checked out what are the absorption factors found A as 28% and B as 4%.
I think I was wrong i might have chosen A since one will not find the difference...
or somebody is able to find the difference...
finally when it comes to dielectric the sound differs...
well if you ask why...the sensitivity of human ear is.. 10,000,000,000,000
Sensitivity of Human Ear
so can you tell me which device in the world is capable of measuring the variation of such resolution?
the perfect speaker should have the above resolution or a perfect microphone should have the above resolution.
The amplifier has to deliver above res can anybody design such amplifier?
so any slight variation in the material we use in the path or touching the path the ear is capable of identifying it.
guess what ear is even so sensitive that it can hear the 1Hz difference in its maximum sensitive range...
so its all dielectric... i think caps like silmics are making the amps reduce little aggressive in sound which means probably its like giving a spoon of alcohol to the person who sings... which will not alter the sound much but it adds that to the wave... like i said caps are not for neutrality they are to add color... and I like that color changes.. I dont want to see the entire world in black and white all the time...
I have two capacitors with me A and B.
These two capacitors were plugged in and tested. In AB test found that B is better than A.
Its done 10 times out of which 8 times it was chosen as B is better.
Actually A was metalized polyster and B was plain Polypropelene.
So i checked out what are the absorption factors found A as 28% and B as 4%.
I think I was wrong i might have chosen A since one will not find the difference...
or somebody is able to find the difference...
finally when it comes to dielectric the sound differs...
well if you ask why...the sensitivity of human ear is.. 10,000,000,000,000
Sensitivity of Human Ear
so can you tell me which device in the world is capable of measuring the variation of such resolution?
the perfect speaker should have the above resolution or a perfect microphone should have the above resolution.
The amplifier has to deliver above res can anybody design such amplifier?
so any slight variation in the material we use in the path or touching the path the ear is capable of identifying it.
guess what ear is even so sensitive that it can hear the 1Hz difference in its maximum sensitive range...
so its all dielectric... i think caps like silmics are making the amps reduce little aggressive in sound which means probably its like giving a spoon of alcohol to the person who sings... which will not alter the sound much but it adds that to the wave... like i said caps are not for neutrality they are to add color... and I like that color changes.. I dont want to see the entire world in black and white all the time...
well soon in near future I will be buying a CRO and figureout other methods of measuring.
well if you are just behind the measurements i could rather see little variation on the graphs might be a shift so how can you justify that in terms of ecstasy.
Lets see if i can able to represent mathematically but one thing is very sure that it must be beyond than what we can actually measure so most of our new things in audio are discoveries not inventions... we accidentally find this is better than that by hit and trail methods in many cases... find this is best...
to be frank edison found tungsten the best metal for light bulb instead of studying what element can actually withstand and since at that time was not broad enough as what we see today. Today we have electron microscopes but what so in future we will have audio analyzing equipment which can tell that the quality is great...till then we need to wait or somebody come up with a device which will tell that its better because of this graph...
well if you are just behind the measurements i could rather see little variation on the graphs might be a shift so how can you justify that in terms of ecstasy.
Lets see if i can able to represent mathematically but one thing is very sure that it must be beyond than what we can actually measure so most of our new things in audio are discoveries not inventions... we accidentally find this is better than that by hit and trail methods in many cases... find this is best...
to be frank edison found tungsten the best metal for light bulb instead of studying what element can actually withstand and since at that time was not broad enough as what we see today. Today we have electron microscopes but what so in future we will have audio analyzing equipment which can tell that the quality is great...till then we need to wait or somebody come up with a device which will tell that its better because of this graph...
The signal sent to the speaker is a voltage.
The speaker responds by demanding a current.
It is a consequence of sending that voltage that the amplifier must also send a current to match the demand.
The capacitors are the only thing in the PSU can can meet that current demand.
It cannot be the job of the transformer to supply that current. The transformer is very effectively cut off from the amplifier by the diodes in reverse conduction. The transformer is only "connected" to the smoothing capacitors for about 10% of the time and during that "connected" time the primary job is re-charging the smoothing capacitors.
again stating this shows you do not understand the fundamentals.
It is my opinion that you really need to go back to basics and learn about voltage, current, Ohm's law, etc.
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in the other post you have specifically stated that using big capacitors have nothing to do with the bass....
so can you tell me what are the fundamentals involved in getting good bass in terms of amplifiers ability. Lets consider you have very good speakers.
Lets get what must be done for that Vifa 10 inch Premium line driver...
alright everybody wants to know how you get the best out of that driver...
can you tell us what values of trafo and what capacitors and value to be used to get the best out of this driver? I want to see how good you are in the fundamentals.. as I am not as good as you...
so can you tell me what are the fundamentals involved in getting good bass in terms of amplifiers ability. Lets consider you have very good speakers.
Lets get what must be done for that Vifa 10 inch Premium line driver...
alright everybody wants to know how you get the best out of that driver...
can you tell us what values of trafo and what capacitors and value to be used to get the best out of this driver? I want to see how good you are in the fundamentals.. as I am not as good as you...
Complex, not pathological, Wayne.
Really? You've actually heard this directly? Strange, because I've driven 12s, 15s and 18s with them. They had no trouble at all. In fact, they were very good in the bass. "Good" if you like strong, well behaved bass.
At this point the thread becomes speculation and hearsay. You asked for help, and have received informed replies from several very knowledgeable forum members - but you seem to already know all the answers. I don't understand the point of this thread.
Well, how about some "balance"?
Every means of reproducing sound is by its very nature a compromise.
You have to pick your compromises, shunning those that "bother" you the most, and accepting those that you find benign. It's that simple.
Knowledge is the means by which one can best chose which compromises exist and what to do about them.
People disagree about the significance and meaning of the 'knowledge'.
_-_-bear
Every means of reproducing sound is by its very nature a compromise.
You have to pick your compromises, shunning those that "bother" you the most, and accepting those that you find benign. It's that simple.
Knowledge is the means by which one can best chose which compromises exist and what to do about them.
People disagree about the significance and meaning of the 'knowledge'.
_-_-bear
may be what i saw was a low powered ones. I dont know many things im learning but these few problems are not yet solved for me..
andrew so when all the diodes gets off at one instance in bridge rectifier in that case what is the source of the current if the diodes are completely blocking the trafo? true its right so the capacitors needs to give that much current? how do I calculate that?
20amps for a duration of 20 milliseconds max....
andrew so when all the diodes gets off at one instance in bridge rectifier in that case what is the source of the current if the diodes are completely blocking the trafo? true its right so the capacitors needs to give that much current? how do I calculate that?
20amps for a duration of 20 milliseconds max....
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