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Old 14th October 2013, 10:35 PM   #1
alextab is offline alextab  United States
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Default (Planning) Rebuilding Manger based system. Would love your thoughts.

I am in the planning stages of rebuilding my Manger based setup. Currently I have the Manger paired with the Peerless 850146 10" in a separate sealed boxes using the dcx2496 and a very cheap Panasonic 6 channel class D amp. I had always intended the Peerless and the amp to be temporary solutions but temporary turned some number of years now! As it turned out both were "good enough" so they have been easy to live with.

The amp has started to deteriorate with funny start up behavior and my wife informed me the other day it was no longer "good enough"(!) so that is the first thing that I need to replace.

After that
* Re-design for a better woofer
* Rebuild cabinets
* Implement a PC based source system

Between my wife and I we listen to every sort of music and use the system for movies as well. I have no plans for more than stereo (i.e. 5.1 etc). We are not bass nuts (current bass is acceptable) or listen at very high levels.

As far as the speaker redesign goes I would be looking to replace the Peerless with something similar but a step up. A ,little more bass would not hurt but mainly the desire is for a nice match to the Manger. I am dreaming of 10-12" Eton, SS Revelator, SEAS Excel etc.

First thing first
So considering that, I was planning on using the Hypex As2.100 (or PSC2.400) with digital input. Any reason to not use these? And how can I evaluate what I should use between the As2.100 or PSC2.400? From what I can tell they only vary by price and power with about 50w vs 200(400?)w per driver.

Any other thoughts on this system welcome.
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Old 18th October 2013, 05:03 AM   #2
alextab is offline alextab  United States
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Ok,, I guess this is a journal now

Step 1 - New Amp
I need to replace the existing, broken amp asap. Needs to be 4 channels of amplification and after this Panasonic amp I am sold on class D.

The Hypex AS2.100D and Hypex PSC2.2400D look like very sensible, available, affordable, easily implementable solutions.
Hypex Electronics BV - AS2.100
Hypex Electronics BV - PSC2.400

I found the differences noted here:
Hypex UcD AS2.100
Differences summarized as:

PSC2.2400D
* Aimed at pro applications
* XLR connector for analog and AES/EBU (digital version)
* Switching power supply
* 2 DACs in parallel
* clip- and thermal limiter
* More pwoer

AS2.100D
* Aimed at home applications
* RCA connectors for analog and s/pdif (digital version)
* "traditional" power-transformer plus regulation power supply
* Sub out
* Volume and on/off controls

The on-board vol control makes the AS2.100D super convenient for me. I suppose 50W per driver will be fine. With built in plate amp and an out of sight source, it will be like just having a set of speakers - the minimalism of which is very attractive.

I am pretty sure I have talked myself into the AS2.100D.

Step 2 New source
Looking at a PC or wandboard sort of setup.
I am sure this will overlap with step 3

Step 3 - Speaker redesign

Speaker Redesign Goals (In Flux)
  • Separate Manger cabinet and bass cabinet w/sorbothane
  • Bass box vol ~70l or less (less is better)
  • Woofer to best match the manger in sound quality (character)
  • Response to ~ 40Hz good. 50Hz ok
  • Does not have to play very loud

Woofer Candidates
...based on reading - mostly copy & paste at this point
Woofer for Manger
Manger MSW and Eton 11-581/50 HEX Plans
and other threads...

Acoustic Elegance TD12M
Audio Technology Flex Unit 8-12"
C-Quenze 23 I 52 20 08 SD
Eton 11-581/50 11"
2ft^3 (57l) vented (3" Flared Vent x 9.7") F3 ~40 Hz
Eton 12" (box too big?)
Scanspeak 25W/8565-00, 10"
Scanspeak Revelator 26W/8867T 10" Black Al
2.3ft^3 (65l) 3" dia vent x 11" F3 ~29Hz
Seas Excel 8" mag
Seas Excel W26FX-001 (E0026) 10" Al
1 ft^3 (28l) sealed F3 of 50Hz - 50% filling
Seas Excel W26FX-002 (E0046) 10" Nextel
2.2 ft^3 (62l) F3 of 40Hz. 3" dia x 6" long
FaitalPro FiveHundredSeries
Eighteen Sound - professional loudspeakers
Volt BM2500.4 sealed box 40-45l
Beyma (min order 50?)

Measurement System
UMIK-1 (?)
ARTA - ARTA Home

Crossover
TBD - crossover point at 200-400Hz seems to be the consensus as much as there is a consensus on the Manger.

Some interesting reading.
MANGER driver

Step 4 Work on the weakest link

As before, any comments welcome.
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Old 18th October 2013, 08:17 PM   #3
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Default Happy to help!

Hiya Alex,

Further to your Private Email, I am happy to help in any way I can, esp as you and your good wife both listen to music at medium levels and don't require 110dB or more SPL peaks....

IMO the Manger is the ultimate solution for low to medium SPL domestic listening ....There are only two down sides...
(1) The very high cost of the raw Manger drivers.
(2) The high quality and associated cost of the rest of the matching system required to actually hear the full potential ( which is absolutely astonishing!) of the drivers.

You have done the right thing, buy the Mangers and simply build a low cost " get you by" system until you have the funds available.

I have 3 key points for you:

(1) Given real world budgets, go for a two way active system with the best DSP crossover you can afford. ( I have a few recommendations).
(2) The bass / low mid driver is vital....Please do NOT use a " Audiophile or Hi Fi driver" use a high quality Pro Audio driver. A 10 or 12 inch Volt, PHL or Beyma driver, again I can help with the choice.
(3) The bass /low mid must be open baffle OR sealed....NOT ported / passive radiator / Transmission line, Back loaded horn or any other time smearing / time distorting attempt at " some is good more is better" bass boosting gunge!

Re power amps....they are obviously important, but LESS important than the 3 above points....Spend the bulk of your cash on the 3 points above and you can buy good to very good power amps new or used as your budget allows.
One point though...All 4 power amp channels must be identical...Please don't mix' n match power amps...The Manger's beauty is total time domain accuracy... amps with different phase and slew rates can ruin the results. (Most speakers are so crap in the time domain that they will never show up the differences in this area of power amp performance.)

Re speaker cabinets....
Think modular ie separate cabinet for bass / low mid and Manger, separate them with a thick Sorbothane pad.
Birch ply, NOT MDF.
Cables and connectors...Avoid all solder joints, Crimp joints and seal with solder or hot melt glue.
Use 0.6mm thick, solid core cable, use OFC high grade copper with high purity silver coating ( all copper oxidises over time and sounds crap...Silver does not!)
Use " Twaron" or Angel Hair as internal damping for the Manger cabinet.

That's about it for the moment, I will come back with more detailed answers on bass / low mid driver and crossover selection soon.
Must dash for now!
Derek.
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Old 18th October 2013, 08:55 PM   #4
alextab is offline alextab  United States
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Thanks Derek for the info!

As far as electronics go, unless someone tells me the Hypex AS2.100d is a terrible idea, that will be my intermediate replacement.

When you have the time I will look forward to hearing your thoughts on the driver and crossover.
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Old 18th October 2013, 09:13 PM   #5
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For amplifiers check out these audiopower SDA-400 modules there's now a promo, could be that it's only with the 230vac DPS-400.
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Last edited by danny_66; 18th October 2013 at 09:29 PM.
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Old 18th October 2013, 10:05 PM   #6
alextab is offline alextab  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danny_66 View Post
For amplifiers check out these audiopower SDA-400 modules there's now a promo, could be that it's only with the 230vac DPS-400.
Thanks, that looks interesting but I am not quite ready for that kind of project yet.
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Old 20th October 2013, 03:55 AM   #7
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I built and rebuilt also some speakers around Manger MSW. Presently I am using Accuton S280 woofers. One of the reasons to use these woofers inspite their cost is that they work well in my quite large room and have a fast response/decay even in a vented box (also very low distortion).
I am using the digital x-over function of my Devialet amp/dac and that is a significant improvement over any passive crossover. It is also very simple to adjust the crossover point - presently at 400 Hz.
The MSW has a lot of sonic qualities which are not matched by other speakers but it has also some severe flaws. There was no technical improvement for some decades. New materials and concepts should allow to generate a better version!
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Old 20th October 2013, 11:02 AM   #8
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Default Update on drivers

Hi Alex,

I am not fully up to date with all the latest bass / low mid drivers as I have been working on line arrays with a full range BMR driver, but here are are my best ideas.
As you are in the USA I think Volt, PHL and Precision Devices will all be very expensive, so Beyma would be my best recommendation as Speaker City has a full range at reasonable prices but also the PD gear is fab!

The Beyma 12P80 Fe ( and the even better Neo Magnet version) is the single best compromise for your design asthetics and sonic goals.
The 12sw1300 will give more low end power but be a bit less detailed in the low midrange and its dynamics will be lower.
The 15 inch Precision Devices is a great choice, really great with the the Manger, the only down sides are size and cost.
All drivers can be used sealed or open baffle, depending on your space / asthetic requirements.

The Hypex amp crossover is a good choice and also leaves the door open for an NCore amp module and DSP board upgrade in the future...!

Cheers
Derek.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Beyma 12P80Fe wow 12 inch.pdf (307.7 KB, 12 views)
File Type: pdf Beyma 12 inch sub wow 12SW1300Nd.pdf (264.0 KB, 7 views)
File Type: pdf Precision Devices PD158 bass mid.pdf (293.3 KB, 10 views)
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Old 20th October 2013, 08:42 PM   #9
alextab is offline alextab  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monteverdi View Post
I built and rebuilt also some speakers around Manger MSW. Presently I am using Accuton S280 woofers. One of the reasons to use these woofers inspite their cost is that they work well in my quite large room and have a fast response/decay even in a vented box (also very low distortion).
I am using the digital x-over function of my Devialet amp/dac and that is a significant improvement over any passive crossover. It is also very simple to adjust the crossover point - presently at 400 Hz.
The MSW has a lot of sonic qualities which are not matched by other speakers but it has also some severe flaws. There was no technical improvement for some decades. New materials and concepts should allow to generate a better version!
Monteverdi, thanks for your post.

That is a very interesting woofer. When considering my options I felt like nothing was out of my budget (by saving money if need be) but I stand corrected! I am not in a large room so I might not appropriate the full benefit of those drivers anyway.

I am interested to know what you would consider the Mangers primary flaws are? (I'm open minded, I am not going to get into any agreements about it).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Overkill Audio View Post
Hi Alex,

I am not fully up to date with all the latest bass / low mid drivers as I have been working on line arrays with a full range BMR driver, but here are are my best ideas.
As you are in the USA I think Volt, PHL and Precision Devices will all be very expensive, so Beyma would be my best recommendation as Speaker City has a full range at reasonable prices but also the PD gear is fab!

The Beyma 12P80 Fe ( and the even better Neo Magnet version) is the single best compromise for your design asthetics and sonic goals.
The 12sw1300 will give more low end power but be a bit less detailed in the low midrange and its dynamics will be lower.
The 15 inch Precision Devices is a great choice, really great with the the Manger, the only down sides are size and cost.
All drivers can be used sealed or open baffle, depending on your space / asthetic requirements.

The Hypex amp crossover is a good choice and also leaves the door open for an NCore amp module and DSP board upgrade in the future...!

Cheers
Derek.
Derek, thanks again for your great info. Even attaching the pdfs, much appropriated!

I'll give this some thoughts and do a little modeling to see what might work best.

Beyma 12P80Fe
Beyma 12P80ND (a bit better than Fe version)
Beyma 12sw1300 (+bass, -mids, dynamics)
Precision Devices PD158 (-cost shipping from UK, -size)

Edit:
Do you mean the 15SW1300ND instead of the 12sw1300?

Last edited by alextab; 20th October 2013 at 08:46 PM.
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Old 21st October 2013, 03:26 AM   #10
alextab is offline alextab  United States
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Ok, I found the 12sw1300 - my mixup.

Been working on my homework. I put a spreadsheet together of likely drivers so I could compare various parameters. I added columns for Mms/Bl and Sd/VC diameter. Seems like the recommended driver are low Qts.

Sorted by Mms/Bl, they are (low to high, lower is better). Sorted by Qts looks nearly the same.
Beyma 12p80nd
Beyma 12P80Fe
Volt BM2500.4
Precision Devices PD158
AT Flexunits 12 D 77 25 10 KAP
Acoustic Elegance TD12M
Accuton S280-6-282
AT Flexunits 10 A 77 25 10
AT C-Quenze 23 I 52 20 08 SD
Beyma 12SW1300Nd
Eton 11-581/50
AT Flexunits 12 B 77 25 10
SEAS W26FX-001
Peerless 850146

Glad to see my Peerlesss dead last, can only get better?

I have to kick out the Precision Devices PD158, because 15" is just too big for my outside box dimensions. I have to kick out the Accuton because it is just too expensive. Same might go for the Audio Technology drivers.

The Acoustic Elegance TD12M has a Le of .2mH which matches the C-Quenze. The Beyma 12P80Nd is 1.2. I have no idea how relevant that difference is. Peerless are 2.9.

I plan on looking into the Acoustic Elegance TD12 series - not sure what the S/H/X/M all mean.

Any opinions on Acoustic Elegance?

Edit: Attached spreadsheet in .ods format - Open Office but should work in Excel.
Attached Files
File Type: zip woof comp.zip (14.6 KB, 3 views)

Last edited by alextab; 21st October 2013 at 03:30 AM.
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