I am in the planning stages of rebuilding my Manger based setup. Currently I have the Manger paired with the Peerless 850146 10" in a separate sealed boxes using the dcx2496 and a very cheap Panasonic 6 channel class D amp. I had always intended the Peerless and the amp to be temporary solutions but temporary turned some number of years now! As it turned out both were "good enough" so they have been easy to live with.
The amp has started to deteriorate with funny start up behavior and my wife informed me the other day it was no longer "good enough"(!) so that is the first thing that I need to replace.
After that
* Re-design for a better woofer
* Rebuild cabinets
* Implement a PC based source system
Between my wife and I we listen to every sort of music and use the system for movies as well. I have no plans for more than stereo (i.e. 5.1 etc). We are not bass nuts (current bass is acceptable) or listen at very high levels.
As far as the speaker redesign goes I would be looking to replace the Peerless with something similar but a step up. A ,little more bass would not hurt but mainly the desire is for a nice match to the Manger. I am dreaming of 10-12" Eton, SS Revelator, SEAS Excel etc.
First thing first
So considering that, I was planning on using the Hypex As2.100 (or PSC2.400) with digital input. Any reason to not use these? And how can I evaluate what I should use between the As2.100 or PSC2.400? From what I can tell they only vary by price and power with about 50w vs 200(400?)w per driver.
Any other thoughts on this system welcome.
The amp has started to deteriorate with funny start up behavior and my wife informed me the other day it was no longer "good enough"(!) so that is the first thing that I need to replace.
After that
* Re-design for a better woofer
* Rebuild cabinets
* Implement a PC based source system
Between my wife and I we listen to every sort of music and use the system for movies as well. I have no plans for more than stereo (i.e. 5.1 etc). We are not bass nuts (current bass is acceptable) or listen at very high levels.
As far as the speaker redesign goes I would be looking to replace the Peerless with something similar but a step up. A ,little more bass would not hurt but mainly the desire is for a nice match to the Manger. I am dreaming of 10-12" Eton, SS Revelator, SEAS Excel etc.
First thing first
So considering that, I was planning on using the Hypex As2.100 (or PSC2.400) with digital input. Any reason to not use these? And how can I evaluate what I should use between the As2.100 or PSC2.400? From what I can tell they only vary by price and power with about 50w vs 200(400?)w per driver.
Any other thoughts on this system welcome.
Ok,, I guess this is a journal now 
Step 1 - New Amp
I need to replace the existing, broken amp asap. Needs to be 4 channels of amplification and after this Panasonic amp I am sold on class D.
The Hypex AS2.100D and Hypex PSC2.2400D look like very sensible, available, affordable, easily implementable solutions.
Hypex Electronics BV - AS2.100
Hypex Electronics BV - PSC2.400
I found the differences noted here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/class-d/144412-hypex-ucd-as2-100-a-30.html
Differences summarized as:
PSC2.2400D
* Aimed at pro applications
* XLR connector for analog and AES/EBU (digital version)
* Switching power supply
* 2 DACs in parallel
* clip- and thermal limiter
* More pwoer
AS2.100D
* Aimed at home applications
* RCA connectors for analog and s/pdif (digital version)
* "traditional" power-transformer plus regulation power supply
* Sub out
* Volume and on/off controls
The on-board vol control makes the AS2.100D super convenient for me. I suppose 50W per driver will be fine. With built in plate amp and an out of sight source, it will be like just having a set of speakers - the minimalism of which is very attractive.
I am pretty sure I have talked myself into the AS2.100D.
Step 2 New source
Looking at a PC or wandboard sort of setup.
I am sure this will overlap with step 3
Step 3 - Speaker redesign
Speaker Redesign Goals (In Flux)
Woofer Candidates
...based on reading - mostly copy & paste at this point
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/planars-exotics/132956-woofer-manger.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/30201-manger-msw-eton-11-581-50-hex-plans.html
and other threads...
Acoustic Elegance TD12M
Audio Technology Flex Unit 8-12"
C-Quenze 23 I 52 20 08 SD
Eton 11-581/50 11"
2ft^3 (57l) vented (3" Flared Vent x 9.7") F3 ~40 Hz
Eton 12" (box too big?)
Scanspeak 25W/8565-00, 10"
Scanspeak Revelator 26W/8867T 10" Black Al
2.3ft^3 (65l) 3" dia vent x 11" F3 ~29Hz
Seas Excel 8" mag
Seas Excel W26FX-001 (E0026) 10" Al
1 ft^3 (28l) sealed F3 of 50Hz - 50% filling
Seas Excel W26FX-002 (E0046) 10" Nextel
2.2 ft^3 (62l) F3 of 40Hz. 3" dia x 6" long
FaitalPro FiveHundredSeries
Eighteen Sound - professional loudspeakers
Volt BM2500.4 sealed box 40-45l
Beyma (min order 50?)
Measurement System
UMIK-1 (?)
ARTA - ARTA Home
Crossover
TBD - crossover point at 200-400Hz seems to be the consensus as much as there is a consensus on the Manger.
Some interesting reading.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/47535-manger-driver-18.html
Step 4 Work on the weakest link
As before, any comments welcome.
Step 1 - New Amp
I need to replace the existing, broken amp asap. Needs to be 4 channels of amplification and after this Panasonic amp I am sold on class D.
The Hypex AS2.100D and Hypex PSC2.2400D look like very sensible, available, affordable, easily implementable solutions.
Hypex Electronics BV - AS2.100
Hypex Electronics BV - PSC2.400
I found the differences noted here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/class-d/144412-hypex-ucd-as2-100-a-30.html
Differences summarized as:
PSC2.2400D
* Aimed at pro applications
* XLR connector for analog and AES/EBU (digital version)
* Switching power supply
* 2 DACs in parallel
* clip- and thermal limiter
* More pwoer
AS2.100D
* Aimed at home applications
* RCA connectors for analog and s/pdif (digital version)
* "traditional" power-transformer plus regulation power supply
* Sub out
* Volume and on/off controls
The on-board vol control makes the AS2.100D super convenient for me. I suppose 50W per driver will be fine. With built in plate amp and an out of sight source, it will be like just having a set of speakers - the minimalism of which is very attractive.
I am pretty sure I have talked myself into the AS2.100D.
Step 2 New source
Looking at a PC or wandboard sort of setup.
I am sure this will overlap with step 3
Step 3 - Speaker redesign
Speaker Redesign Goals (In Flux)
- Separate Manger cabinet and bass cabinet w/sorbothane
- Bass box vol ~70l or less (less is better)
- Woofer to best match the manger in sound quality (character)
- Response to ~ 40Hz good. 50Hz ok
- Does not have to play very loud
Woofer Candidates
...based on reading - mostly copy & paste at this point
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/planars-exotics/132956-woofer-manger.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/30201-manger-msw-eton-11-581-50-hex-plans.html
and other threads...
Acoustic Elegance TD12M
Audio Technology Flex Unit 8-12"
C-Quenze 23 I 52 20 08 SD
Eton 11-581/50 11"
2ft^3 (57l) vented (3" Flared Vent x 9.7") F3 ~40 Hz
Eton 12" (box too big?)
Scanspeak 25W/8565-00, 10"
Scanspeak Revelator 26W/8867T 10" Black Al
2.3ft^3 (65l) 3" dia vent x 11" F3 ~29Hz
Seas Excel 8" mag
Seas Excel W26FX-001 (E0026) 10" Al
1 ft^3 (28l) sealed F3 of 50Hz - 50% filling
Seas Excel W26FX-002 (E0046) 10" Nextel
2.2 ft^3 (62l) F3 of 40Hz. 3" dia x 6" long
FaitalPro FiveHundredSeries
Eighteen Sound - professional loudspeakers
Volt BM2500.4 sealed box 40-45l
Beyma (min order 50?)
Measurement System
UMIK-1 (?)
ARTA - ARTA Home
Crossover
TBD - crossover point at 200-400Hz seems to be the consensus as much as there is a consensus on the Manger.
Some interesting reading.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/47535-manger-driver-18.html
Step 4 Work on the weakest link
As before, any comments welcome.
Happy to help!
Hiya Alex,
Further to your Private Email, I am happy to help in any way I can, esp as you and your good wife both listen to music at medium levels and don't require 110dB or more SPL peaks....
IMO the Manger is the ultimate solution for low to medium SPL domestic listening ....There are only two down sides...
(1) The very high cost of the raw Manger drivers.
(2) The high quality and associated cost of the rest of the matching system required to actually hear the full potential ( which is absolutely astonishing!) of the drivers.
You have done the right thing, buy the Mangers and simply build a low cost " get you by" system until you have the funds available.
I have 3 key points for you:
(1) Given real world budgets, go for a two way active system with the best DSP crossover you can afford. ( I have a few recommendations).
(2) The bass / low mid driver is vital....Please do NOT use a " Audiophile or Hi Fi driver" use a high quality Pro Audio driver. A 10 or 12 inch Volt, PHL or Beyma driver, again I can help with the choice.
(3) The bass /low mid must be open baffle OR sealed....NOT ported / passive radiator / Transmission line, Back loaded horn or any other time smearing / time distorting attempt at " some is good more is better" bass boosting gunge!
Re power amps....they are obviously important, but LESS important than the 3 above points....Spend the bulk of your cash on the 3 points above and you can buy good to very good power amps new or used as your budget allows.
One point though...All 4 power amp channels must be identical...Please don't mix' n match power amps...The Manger's beauty is total time domain accuracy... amps with different phase and slew rates can ruin the results. (Most speakers are so crap in the time domain that they will never show up the differences in this area of power amp performance.)
Re speaker cabinets....
Think modular ie separate cabinet for bass / low mid and Manger, separate them with a thick Sorbothane pad.
Birch ply, NOT MDF.
Cables and connectors...Avoid all solder joints, Crimp joints and seal with solder or hot melt glue.
Use 0.6mm thick, solid core cable, use OFC high grade copper with high purity silver coating ( all copper oxidises over time and sounds crap...Silver does not!)
Use " Twaron" or Angel Hair as internal damping for the Manger cabinet.
That's about it for the moment, I will come back with more detailed answers on bass / low mid driver and crossover selection soon.
Must dash for now!
Derek.
Hiya Alex,
Further to your Private Email, I am happy to help in any way I can, esp as you and your good wife both listen to music at medium levels and don't require 110dB or more SPL peaks....
IMO the Manger is the ultimate solution for low to medium SPL domestic listening ....There are only two down sides...
(1) The very high cost of the raw Manger drivers.
(2) The high quality and associated cost of the rest of the matching system required to actually hear the full potential ( which is absolutely astonishing!) of the drivers.
You have done the right thing, buy the Mangers and simply build a low cost " get you by" system until you have the funds available.
I have 3 key points for you:
(1) Given real world budgets, go for a two way active system with the best DSP crossover you can afford. ( I have a few recommendations).
(2) The bass / low mid driver is vital....Please do NOT use a " Audiophile or Hi Fi driver" use a high quality Pro Audio driver. A 10 or 12 inch Volt, PHL or Beyma driver, again I can help with the choice.
(3) The bass /low mid must be open baffle OR sealed....NOT ported / passive radiator / Transmission line, Back loaded horn or any other time smearing / time distorting attempt at " some is good more is better" bass boosting gunge!
Re power amps....they are obviously important, but LESS important than the 3 above points....Spend the bulk of your cash on the 3 points above and you can buy good to very good power amps new or used as your budget allows.
One point though...All 4 power amp channels must be identical...Please don't mix' n match power amps...The Manger's beauty is total time domain accuracy... amps with different phase and slew rates can ruin the results. (Most speakers are so crap in the time domain that they will never show up the differences in this area of power amp performance.)
Re speaker cabinets....
Think modular ie separate cabinet for bass / low mid and Manger, separate them with a thick Sorbothane pad.
Birch ply, NOT MDF.
Cables and connectors...Avoid all solder joints, Crimp joints and seal with solder or hot melt glue.
Use 0.6mm thick, solid core cable, use OFC high grade copper with high purity silver coating ( all copper oxidises over time and sounds crap...Silver does not!)
Use " Twaron" or Angel Hair as internal damping for the Manger cabinet.
That's about it for the moment, I will come back with more detailed answers on bass / low mid driver and crossover selection soon.
Must dash for now!
Derek.
For amplifiers check out these audiopower SDA-400 modules there's now a promo, could be that it's only with the 230vac DPS-400.
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Thanks, that looks interesting but I am not quite ready for that kind of project yet.
I built and rebuilt also some speakers around Manger MSW. Presently I am using Accuton S280 woofers. One of the reasons to use these woofers inspite their cost is that they work well in my quite large room and have a fast response/decay even in a vented box (also very low distortion).
I am using the digital x-over function of my Devialet amp/dac and that is a significant improvement over any passive crossover. It is also very simple to adjust the crossover point - presently at 400 Hz.
The MSW has a lot of sonic qualities which are not matched by other speakers but it has also some severe flaws. There was no technical improvement for some decades. New materials and concepts should allow to generate a better version!
I am using the digital x-over function of my Devialet amp/dac and that is a significant improvement over any passive crossover. It is also very simple to adjust the crossover point - presently at 400 Hz.
The MSW has a lot of sonic qualities which are not matched by other speakers but it has also some severe flaws. There was no technical improvement for some decades. New materials and concepts should allow to generate a better version!
Update on drivers
Hi Alex,
I am not fully up to date with all the latest bass / low mid drivers as I have been working on line arrays with a full range BMR driver, but here are are my best ideas.
As you are in the USA I think Volt, PHL and Precision Devices will all be very expensive, so Beyma would be my best recommendation as Speaker City has a full range at reasonable prices but also the PD gear is fab!
The Beyma 12P80 Fe ( and the even better Neo Magnet version) is the single best compromise for your design asthetics and sonic goals.
The 12sw1300 will give more low end power but be a bit less detailed in the low midrange and its dynamics will be lower.
The 15 inch Precision Devices is a great choice, really great with the the Manger, the only down sides are size and cost.
All drivers can be used sealed or open baffle, depending on your space / asthetic requirements.
The Hypex amp crossover is a good choice and also leaves the door open for an NCore amp module and DSP board upgrade in the future...!
Cheers
Derek.
Hi Alex,
I am not fully up to date with all the latest bass / low mid drivers as I have been working on line arrays with a full range BMR driver, but here are are my best ideas.
As you are in the USA I think Volt, PHL and Precision Devices will all be very expensive, so Beyma would be my best recommendation as Speaker City has a full range at reasonable prices but also the PD gear is fab!
The Beyma 12P80 Fe ( and the even better Neo Magnet version) is the single best compromise for your design asthetics and sonic goals.
The 12sw1300 will give more low end power but be a bit less detailed in the low midrange and its dynamics will be lower.
The 15 inch Precision Devices is a great choice, really great with the the Manger, the only down sides are size and cost.
All drivers can be used sealed or open baffle, depending on your space / asthetic requirements.
The Hypex amp crossover is a good choice and also leaves the door open for an NCore amp module and DSP board upgrade in the future...!
Cheers
Derek.
Monteverdi, thanks for your post.
That is a very interesting woofer. When considering my options I felt like nothing was out of my budget (by saving money if need be) but I stand corrected! I am not in a large room so I might not appropriate the full benefit of those drivers anyway.
I am interested to know what you would consider the Mangers primary flaws are? (I'm open minded, I am not going to get into any agreements about it).
Derek, thanks again for your great info. Even attaching the pdfs, much appropriated!
I'll give this some thoughts and do a little modeling to see what might work best.
Beyma 12P80Fe
Beyma 12P80ND (a bit better than Fe version)
Beyma 12sw1300 (+bass, -mids, dynamics)
Precision Devices PD158 (-cost shipping from UK, -size)
Edit:
Do you mean the 15SW1300ND instead of the 12sw1300?
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Ok, I found the 12sw1300 - my mixup.
Been working on my homework. I put a spreadsheet together of likely drivers so I could compare various parameters. I added columns for Mms/Bl and Sd/VC diameter. Seems like the recommended driver are low Qts.
Sorted by Mms/Bl, they are (low to high, lower is better). Sorted by Qts looks nearly the same.
Beyma 12p80nd
Beyma 12P80Fe
Volt BM2500.4
Precision Devices PD158
AT Flexunits 12 D 77 25 10 KAP
Acoustic Elegance TD12M
Accuton S280-6-282
AT Flexunits 10 A 77 25 10
AT C-Quenze 23 I 52 20 08 SD
Beyma 12SW1300Nd
Eton 11-581/50
AT Flexunits 12 B 77 25 10
SEAS W26FX-001
Peerless 850146
Glad to see my Peerlesss dead last, can only get better?
I have to kick out the Precision Devices PD158, because 15" is just too big for my outside box dimensions. I have to kick out the Accuton because it is just too expensive. Same might go for the Audio Technology drivers.
The Acoustic Elegance TD12M has a Le of .2mH which matches the C-Quenze. The Beyma 12P80Nd is 1.2. I have no idea how relevant that difference is. Peerless are 2.9.
I plan on looking into the Acoustic Elegance TD12 series - not sure what the S/H/X/M all mean.
Any opinions on Acoustic Elegance?
Edit: Attached spreadsheet in .ods format - Open Office but should work in Excel.
Been working on my homework. I put a spreadsheet together of likely drivers so I could compare various parameters. I added columns for Mms/Bl and Sd/VC diameter. Seems like the recommended driver are low Qts.
Sorted by Mms/Bl, they are (low to high, lower is better). Sorted by Qts looks nearly the same.
Beyma 12p80nd
Beyma 12P80Fe
Volt BM2500.4
Precision Devices PD158
AT Flexunits 12 D 77 25 10 KAP
Acoustic Elegance TD12M
Accuton S280-6-282
AT Flexunits 10 A 77 25 10
AT C-Quenze 23 I 52 20 08 SD
Beyma 12SW1300Nd
Eton 11-581/50
AT Flexunits 12 B 77 25 10
SEAS W26FX-001
Peerless 850146
Glad to see my Peerlesss dead last, can only get better?
I have to kick out the Precision Devices PD158, because 15" is just too big for my outside box dimensions. I have to kick out the Accuton because it is just too expensive. Same might go for the Audio Technology drivers.
The Acoustic Elegance TD12M has a Le of .2mH which matches the C-Quenze. The Beyma 12P80Nd is 1.2. I have no idea how relevant that difference is. Peerless are 2.9.
I plan on looking into the Acoustic Elegance TD12 series - not sure what the S/H/X/M all mean.
Any opinions on Acoustic Elegance?
Edit: Attached spreadsheet in .ods format - Open Office but should work in Excel.
Last edited:
Woofer choices...
Hi Alex,
I think the Beyma 12 P80 ( Nd or Fe depending on cost ) will be your best overall bet.
There are a lot of guys on this site using this driver in high end two way systems with the Beyma TPL driver, crossing it over around 1,200Hz to 1,800Hz.
The Beyma TPL is an ultra fast Air Motion Transformer but a Pro version capable of PA SPL's.
They rave about the midrange dynamics and low end punch from the 12P 80 Nd, so I am sure it will match the speed detail of the Manger.
Also the power handling and XMax of the 12P80 will be needed when you Eq the low bass....The "audiophile" bass drivers with wimpy 2 inch voice coils and limited excursion will distort below 100Hz if you use Eq on them.
The attached photo's are of a Manger based two way using a 12 inch Beyma driver the 12LX60 in a sealed bass cabinet of just 50liters. I crossed it over and Eq'd it with the fantastic DEQX unit, 60dB per octave Linear Phase slopes at 330Hz....It was and remains the best two way I have ever heard.
At the London Audio show in 2005 I demo'd a pair of these playing The Gladiator soundtrack Battle scene...They filled a packed room with a tidal wave of instruments and the floor shook with the low rumble of the Kettle drums as the track fades...Most systems barely manage to suggest the drums are even there!
The voice coil inductance is not an issue in your application as you will be crossing the driver over below 800Hz ( approx. 300Hz to 350Hz would be ideal) and the only theoretical advantage of low voice coil inductance is that it extends the top end response of the driver.
The AE range of drivers( M series is the best by far ) all have very low inductance and can be used up to 2 or even 3KHz on axis.
But as ALL big drivers beam ( the bigger the driver the lower the frequency it starts to beam) ie move your head a foot or two off axis and the high frequencies disappear there is almost no real world advantage in having a 12 or 15 inch driver with very low inductance.
Have you decided on final crossover / DSP unit and open baffle or sealed?
Cheers
Derek.
Hi Alex,
I think the Beyma 12 P80 ( Nd or Fe depending on cost ) will be your best overall bet.
There are a lot of guys on this site using this driver in high end two way systems with the Beyma TPL driver, crossing it over around 1,200Hz to 1,800Hz.
The Beyma TPL is an ultra fast Air Motion Transformer but a Pro version capable of PA SPL's.
They rave about the midrange dynamics and low end punch from the 12P 80 Nd, so I am sure it will match the speed detail of the Manger.
Also the power handling and XMax of the 12P80 will be needed when you Eq the low bass....The "audiophile" bass drivers with wimpy 2 inch voice coils and limited excursion will distort below 100Hz if you use Eq on them.
The attached photo's are of a Manger based two way using a 12 inch Beyma driver the 12LX60 in a sealed bass cabinet of just 50liters. I crossed it over and Eq'd it with the fantastic DEQX unit, 60dB per octave Linear Phase slopes at 330Hz....It was and remains the best two way I have ever heard.
At the London Audio show in 2005 I demo'd a pair of these playing The Gladiator soundtrack Battle scene...They filled a packed room with a tidal wave of instruments and the floor shook with the low rumble of the Kettle drums as the track fades...Most systems barely manage to suggest the drums are even there!
The voice coil inductance is not an issue in your application as you will be crossing the driver over below 800Hz ( approx. 300Hz to 350Hz would be ideal) and the only theoretical advantage of low voice coil inductance is that it extends the top end response of the driver.
The AE range of drivers( M series is the best by far ) all have very low inductance and can be used up to 2 or even 3KHz on axis.
But as ALL big drivers beam ( the bigger the driver the lower the frequency it starts to beam) ie move your head a foot or two off axis and the high frequencies disappear there is almost no real world advantage in having a 12 or 15 inch driver with very low inductance.
Have you decided on final crossover / DSP unit and open baffle or sealed?
Cheers
Derek.
Attachments
I did read through that Beyma TPL/12P80Nd thread, it would be hard to argue against the Beyma!
I want to build a sealed system. For the near future the speakers will be near the back wall and closer to the side walls than is ideal. I will be using the built in Hypex DSP in the AS2.1000 initialy but would love to build something myself in the future.
For the Beyma 12P80Nd that will not have much natural bass extension in a closed box and require EQ for bass, what is the right way to model the enclosure?
Thanks for all the info and assistance!
p.s. Amazing looking speakers!
I want to build a sealed system. For the near future the speakers will be near the back wall and closer to the side walls than is ideal. I will be using the built in Hypex DSP in the AS2.1000 initialy but would love to build something myself in the future.
For the Beyma 12P80Nd that will not have much natural bass extension in a closed box and require EQ for bass, what is the right way to model the enclosure?
Thanks for all the info and assistance!
p.s. Amazing looking speakers!
Sealed bass cabinet design
Hi Alex,
To be honest with your powerful Hypex amps and DSP you don't need to model any sealed bass cabinets.... You are free of all the " traditional " stress of juggling the 3 variables ie cabinet volume Vs bass extension Vs efficiency.
Also the low cost of good Eq (free with the fantastic JRiver Media Centre) or moderate $50 to $100 Pro studio grade plugins like (FabFilter Pro-Q - Equalizer Plug-In VST VST3 AU AAX RTAS AudioSuite
& Blue Cat's Liny EQ - Low Latency Linear Phase Equalizer Plug-in (VST, Audio Unit, AAX, RTAS, DX) ) you can "room tune" your system to perfection whatever room you move to.
With a serious Pro driver like the Beyma it can handle all the low end Eq you will ever need when matching it to a Manger mid / top for domestic use....You wont run out of Xmax and power handling.
Using the spec sheet as a rough guide you can use anything from about 45 litres to 90 litres internal volume and just about any shape you like.
Make it aesthetically pleasing and structurally non resonant ( bamboo, birch ply, acrylic, synthetic stone, alloy etc) and the only thing that will vary with the cabinet volume is the efficiency....ie the bigger the cabinet volume the less low end Eq boost you will need.
You will get slightly better low mid performance ( transients / group delay) with the bigger cabinet volume. If it was me I would go for a non symmetrical 65 litre bamboo ( 18mm thick ) cabinet, Trapezoid shape with a 10 litre matching trapezoid Manger cabinet on top ( 10mm thick Sorbothane pad separating them) and set the Manger cabinet back a couple of inches to vertically time align the voice coils.
Hope this helps!
Cheers
Derek.
Hi Alex,
To be honest with your powerful Hypex amps and DSP you don't need to model any sealed bass cabinets.... You are free of all the " traditional " stress of juggling the 3 variables ie cabinet volume Vs bass extension Vs efficiency.
Also the low cost of good Eq (free with the fantastic JRiver Media Centre) or moderate $50 to $100 Pro studio grade plugins like (FabFilter Pro-Q - Equalizer Plug-In VST VST3 AU AAX RTAS AudioSuite
& Blue Cat's Liny EQ - Low Latency Linear Phase Equalizer Plug-in (VST, Audio Unit, AAX, RTAS, DX) ) you can "room tune" your system to perfection whatever room you move to.
With a serious Pro driver like the Beyma it can handle all the low end Eq you will ever need when matching it to a Manger mid / top for domestic use....You wont run out of Xmax and power handling.
Using the spec sheet as a rough guide you can use anything from about 45 litres to 90 litres internal volume and just about any shape you like.
Make it aesthetically pleasing and structurally non resonant ( bamboo, birch ply, acrylic, synthetic stone, alloy etc) and the only thing that will vary with the cabinet volume is the efficiency....ie the bigger the cabinet volume the less low end Eq boost you will need.
You will get slightly better low mid performance ( transients / group delay) with the bigger cabinet volume. If it was me I would go for a non symmetrical 65 litre bamboo ( 18mm thick ) cabinet, Trapezoid shape with a 10 litre matching trapezoid Manger cabinet on top ( 10mm thick Sorbothane pad separating them) and set the Manger cabinet back a couple of inches to vertically time align the voice coils.
Hope this helps!
Cheers
Derek.
Google Bamboo
Bamboo is the best of all natural materials for loudspeaker cabinets ( and shelves, racks supports etc), have a Google and you will be amazed....here are a few bullet points to start:
(1) Resonance / damping characteristics - superior to any wood or MDF, as Bamboo is not a wood, its a grass with a vast number of inter woven layers tightly bound in a very high density structure.
(2) Tensile strength - almost as strong as steel....Back in the 1990's, in Hong Kong I was 20 storeys up in a glass elevator watching the construction workers walk along Bamboo scaffolding poles and planks, they still use them today!
(3) Machine-ability and finish - very easy to machine and achieve accurate joints, easy to glue / bolt / screw etc.
(4) Asthetics - Beautiful, look at bamboo flooring and furniture...Easy to just polish or seal and have a lovely finish, no need for toxic chemicals or high energy oven baked finishing.
(5) Durability & Reliability - Very stable in a wide range of climates and humidity, not prone to drying out or swelling with seasonal air conditions.
(6) Environmentally - The best!
Bamboo grows faster than any wood, some species of Bamboo can grow by over 40 cm ( 16 inches) in 24 hours!! Bamboo plantations have a higher biodiversity of species than so called " sustainable" soft wood forests which are "managed deserts" with almost no other plant or animal life allowed.
Cheers
Derek.
Bamboo is the best of all natural materials for loudspeaker cabinets ( and shelves, racks supports etc), have a Google and you will be amazed....here are a few bullet points to start:
(1) Resonance / damping characteristics - superior to any wood or MDF, as Bamboo is not a wood, its a grass with a vast number of inter woven layers tightly bound in a very high density structure.
(2) Tensile strength - almost as strong as steel....Back in the 1990's, in Hong Kong I was 20 storeys up in a glass elevator watching the construction workers walk along Bamboo scaffolding poles and planks, they still use them today!
(3) Machine-ability and finish - very easy to machine and achieve accurate joints, easy to glue / bolt / screw etc.
(4) Asthetics - Beautiful, look at bamboo flooring and furniture...Easy to just polish or seal and have a lovely finish, no need for toxic chemicals or high energy oven baked finishing.
(5) Durability & Reliability - Very stable in a wide range of climates and humidity, not prone to drying out or swelling with seasonal air conditions.
(6) Environmentally - The best!
Bamboo grows faster than any wood, some species of Bamboo can grow by over 40 cm ( 16 inches) in 24 hours!! Bamboo plantations have a higher biodiversity of species than so called " sustainable" soft wood forests which are "managed deserts" with almost no other plant or animal life allowed.
Cheers
Derek.
I like the looks of bamboo also very much. The downside is only that it is not as easy to get as Baltic Birch Plywood for instance.
Back to the Woofer choice: Has anybody ever tried a Beyma 10G40 ? At afirst glance it looks less modern and sexy and less beefy than the proposed Neo driver and it is also less efficient. But upon closer look the frequency response of the 12G40 looks less ragged and the 6mm x-max is calculated the old-fashioned way (Vc-length minus pol plate thickness divided by two) , while the more modern way of calculation is used on the newer driver's data sheet, giving a little larger x-max figures for the same driver. So the 12G40 might probably "shovel" more air than the 12P80Nd.
Regards
Charles
Back to the Woofer choice: Has anybody ever tried a Beyma 10G40 ? At afirst glance it looks less modern and sexy and less beefy than the proposed Neo driver and it is also less efficient. But upon closer look the frequency response of the 12G40 looks less ragged and the 6mm x-max is calculated the old-fashioned way (Vc-length minus pol plate thickness divided by two) , while the more modern way of calculation is used on the newer driver's data sheet, giving a little larger x-max figures for the same driver. So the 12G40 might probably "shovel" more air than the 12P80Nd.
Regards
Charles
Bass driver choices
Hi Charles,
Hope all is well with you, what tasty projects are you working on these days?! Have you seen this remarkable little power amp board :
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/vendors-bazaar/225747-vssa-lateral-mosfet-amplifier-266.html
Massive bandwidth and ultra fast rise time / slew rate and superb phase / group delay....Perfect for the Manger!
The 12G40 http://profesional.beyma.com/pdf/12G40E.pdf
is a great value bass driver and I am sure I have read about some projects on the site which have had great results using it.
I have never used it so I can only speculate on a few points below...
Alex is not looking for ultra low bass and or high SPL and crossing over around 350Hz so I think the 40Hz to 450Hz band is the main focus and its quite a close call....
The 12G40 is slightly rougher with a 3dB dip between 300Hz and 400Hz Vs the 12P80 peak of 2dB over the 280Hz to 350Hz band...
Sensitivity is close at 100Hz with the 12G40 @ 93dB at 100Hz Vs 91dB for the 12P80.
The 5dB to 6dB lower Harmonic distortion of the 12P80 is worthwhile having over the 40Hz to 100Hz band, and the lower the drivers are pushed the bigger the advantage to the 12P80.
The 4 inch voice coil of the 12P80 is a real advantage over the 3 inch coil in the 12G40...Less thermal compression will be audible in the bass.
The biggest advantage of all will be the superior transient performance of the 12P80. Ratio of voice coil to cone ( active Vs drag) and the Mms to Bl ratio are the important features to me.
The 12G40 has a lighter 3 inch voice coil ( actively powered) and a heavier cone ( drag on the coil) ie 62g divided by 18.3Bl = 3.36
The 12P80 has a 4 inch coil ( actively powered) and a lighter cone ( drag on the coil) ie 56g divided by 23.1 Bl = 2.42.
Using this arbitrary test the 12P80 is 40% "faster" than the 12G40.
I think this is reflected in all the subjective comments from the guys using the 12P80 when they talk about the superb detail and texture as well as the punch and dynamics of the driver.
Hi Charles,
Hope all is well with you, what tasty projects are you working on these days?! Have you seen this remarkable little power amp board :
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/vendors-bazaar/225747-vssa-lateral-mosfet-amplifier-266.html
Massive bandwidth and ultra fast rise time / slew rate and superb phase / group delay....Perfect for the Manger!
The 12G40 http://profesional.beyma.com/pdf/12G40E.pdf
is a great value bass driver and I am sure I have read about some projects on the site which have had great results using it.
I have never used it so I can only speculate on a few points below...
Alex is not looking for ultra low bass and or high SPL and crossing over around 350Hz so I think the 40Hz to 450Hz band is the main focus and its quite a close call....
The 12G40 is slightly rougher with a 3dB dip between 300Hz and 400Hz Vs the 12P80 peak of 2dB over the 280Hz to 350Hz band...
Sensitivity is close at 100Hz with the 12G40 @ 93dB at 100Hz Vs 91dB for the 12P80.
The 5dB to 6dB lower Harmonic distortion of the 12P80 is worthwhile having over the 40Hz to 100Hz band, and the lower the drivers are pushed the bigger the advantage to the 12P80.
The 4 inch voice coil of the 12P80 is a real advantage over the 3 inch coil in the 12G40...Less thermal compression will be audible in the bass.
The biggest advantage of all will be the superior transient performance of the 12P80. Ratio of voice coil to cone ( active Vs drag) and the Mms to Bl ratio are the important features to me.
The 12G40 has a lighter 3 inch voice coil ( actively powered) and a heavier cone ( drag on the coil) ie 62g divided by 18.3Bl = 3.36
The 12P80 has a 4 inch coil ( actively powered) and a lighter cone ( drag on the coil) ie 56g divided by 23.1 Bl = 2.42.
Using this arbitrary test the 12P80 is 40% "faster" than the 12G40.
I think this is reflected in all the subjective comments from the guys using the 12P80 when they talk about the superb detail and texture as well as the punch and dynamics of the driver.
I plugged some TS parameters into Win ISD for the 12P80ND and it exceeds XMax at around 100 HZ with a LT eq even at low power. BTW, Win ISD thinks there's something wrong with the published TS parameters. Maybe I made a data entry error, but I had to keep deleting data until it would take it.
I've got bamboo cutting boards but never thought about using them for speaker cabinets. I'm guessing it's less dense than MDF so it would make for a lighter cabinet as well.
I've got bamboo cutting boards but never thought about using them for speaker cabinets. I'm guessing it's less dense than MDF so it would make for a lighter cabinet as well.
Sim error?
Hi Audio magnate,
Bamboo has a far higher density than MDF...
A pallet of 8 by 4 sheets of 18mm Bamboo is heavy, expensive to import hence its very expensive...
Re your simulation, real world users and my own experience would suggest your sim is wrong!
I used the older Beyma 12LX60 in a 50 litre sealed enclosure and it worked beautifully...The 12P80 has a similar 4 inch voice coil and power handling but is optimised for superior mid bass and low midrange, the LX60 will go louder lower down but Alex does not need this.
There are several guys on this site ( a bunch in Norway for some reason?) using the 12P80 in sealed enclosures and Eq'ing the bottom end flat to 40Hz in room and using big amps....It works, its as simple as that.
Cheers
Derek.
Hi Audio magnate,
Bamboo has a far higher density than MDF...
A pallet of 8 by 4 sheets of 18mm Bamboo is heavy, expensive to import hence its very expensive...
Re your simulation, real world users and my own experience would suggest your sim is wrong!
I used the older Beyma 12LX60 in a 50 litre sealed enclosure and it worked beautifully...The 12P80 has a similar 4 inch voice coil and power handling but is optimised for superior mid bass and low midrange, the LX60 will go louder lower down but Alex does not need this.
There are several guys on this site ( a bunch in Norway for some reason?) using the 12P80 in sealed enclosures and Eq'ing the bottom end flat to 40Hz in room and using big amps....It works, its as simple as that.
Cheers
Derek.
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