Acoustat panels
Acoustat only made two panels sizes 8"x48"-9"x48"....The 1+1s are 11"Wx 98"H
Two panels,one on top of the other in a frame........2+2 Are 2ea 19"Wx98"H
The M3s are 3 panels wide....two 9"x48" an one 8"x48" i just buy 9" panels an put to gather.. Here is a pic pr of M3........Here a 6600....like the 3s 3wx2h.....6 panels ea...in the other pic.....I have 9 panels there 30years old...thay sound great.....you can pik them up for $50ea ....3 panels wide gives low base.....Killed my DIy panels.....
Made of wire....plastic stators the pic... is one side of a panel
Bias is 5k......
Tranfourmers other my no on the winding.......long live Acoustats
Acoustat only made two panels sizes 8"x48"-9"x48"....The 1+1s are 11"Wx 98"H
Two panels,one on top of the other in a frame........2+2 Are 2ea 19"Wx98"H
The M3s are 3 panels wide....two 9"x48" an one 8"x48" i just buy 9" panels an put to gather.. Here is a pic pr of M3........Here a 6600....like the 3s 3wx2h.....6 panels ea...in the other pic.....I have 9 panels there 30years old...thay sound great.....you can pik them up for $50ea ....3 panels wide gives low base.....Killed my DIy panels.....
Made of wire....plastic stators the pic... is one side of a panel
Bias is 5k......
Tranfourmers other my no on the winding.......long live Acoustats
Attachments
![ACOUSTAT%20SCHEMATICS-NO%20POT[1].jpg](/community/data/attachments/246/246596-58e610c32b36c9d117e54f76151aa82c.jpg)
![941-ACO-Factory_Tour-P-B06[1].jpg](/community/data/attachments/246/246598-7ebc151902028d1ce7807c77ef739dd8.jpg)
![acoustat-5[1].jpg](/community/data/attachments/246/246605-0872043de8bbeae4830d6399a51906a9.jpg)
![941-ACO-Factory_Tour-P-B15[1].jpg](/community/data/attachments/246/246612-fbc705ae326d7a81447bcb1cea97cfa5.jpg)
Acoustats used cube louver (polystyrene) with wires. about 60% open
(~2 mm.) ((not exact)).
I believe the voltage was in the 5kVarea however after doing the IzzyWizzy mods I belive it was supposed to be in the ~5.5kVrange.
They used two transformers one for bass/mids, and one for uppermids/treble.
I believe that the hard part on the amplifier was playing the treble as the impedance is very low and (almost) entirely capacitive in nature.
Paul
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Just a question. Has anybody come across a commercial offering of an ESL sub? I have not but there may have been one at some time. That would be a worth while starting point for someone who wants to go down this path. You can see what was considered to be a viable product. Might be something to learn there. I would tend to think that multiple diaphragm versions would be the best way to go but I have never seen any of those designs make it to market either to that tells you something.
Henry W Parker has to me the most interesting design I have ever seen I just cannot manage to see how it could be built. You might have a look at his US patent. Best regards Moray James.
Henry W Parker has to me the most interesting design I have ever seen I just cannot manage to see how it could be built. You might have a look at his US patent. Best regards Moray James.
As far as I know Soundlab is the only company to market an ESL SUBwoofer.
See Attachment 1 for pic of old brochure...see upper left corner of brochure.
It was a double diaphragm arrangement, and rather larger at nearly 4ft wide by 8ft tall.
Not sure about the D/S or voltages involved.
Evidently SL still makes them on demand.
Attachment 2 shows a pair of them designed to go with their current U-1 models.
Agreed.
The AMT style multiple diaphragm subwoofer arrangement has much going for it.
Solves the problems of providing a stable diaphragm with a low enough resonance, damping the resonance, & keeping the required D/S spacing and drive voltages from getting out of control. The main drawback is a tedious, complicated build.
Link to patent:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/planars-exotics/153220-electrostatic-amt-17.html#post1980472
Experimental results showing lowering and damping of resonance:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/planars-exotics/153220-electrostatic-amt-18.html#post1981871
Thoughts on compound diaphragm ESL woofers:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/planars-exotics/153220-electrostatic-amt-18.html#post1981873
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Attachments
David Lucas used to advertise for a couple of years in the back of Audio Amatuer for limited edition plans for an electrostatic woofer that were a set of 5 or so staggered V shaped panels in the drawing that accompanied the ad.
No one ever seemed to build one that any one ever saw and eventually there was a fair bit of controversy of the whole thing just being a money raising scam. Ed Dell took some heat for continuing to carry the ads after the scam scam began to attract too much negative feedback.
The actual drawing looked potentially feasible theoretically, but no real product or builds ever followed that I ever saw.
No one ever seemed to build one that any one ever saw and eventually there was a fair bit of controversy of the whole thing just being a money raising scam. Ed Dell took some heat for continuing to carry the ads after the scam scam began to attract too much negative feedback.
The actual drawing looked potentially feasible theoretically, but no real product or builds ever followed that I ever saw.
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This is such a very interesting patent by Mr. Parker, this is a single diaphragm design with virtually unlimited throw. I just cant imagine how to build it. I have made a very cheesy POC version but it was not a very good one. Best regards Moray James.
Patent US2864899 - TRANSDUCER - Google Patents
Patent US2864899 - TRANSDUCER - Google Patents
Audiostatic ES-600 and ES-900
Hi,
I have a pair of Audiostatic ES-300 and a pair of ES-SW (Subwoofer) which makes a ES-600. I know that Audiostatic also sold a ES-900 series which was a ES-300 with two ES_SW on each side. A total of 6 panels 3 on each side.
Two on each side makes a ES-600.
Best regards,
Audiofanatic
Hi,
I have a pair of Audiostatic ES-300 and a pair of ES-SW (Subwoofer) which makes a ES-600. I know that Audiostatic also sold a ES-900 series which was a ES-300 with two ES_SW on each side. A total of 6 panels 3 on each side.
Two on each side makes a ES-600.
Best regards,
Audiofanatic
Attachments
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A Heil type ESL pleated arrangement looks very promising to me. I may play with it.
Nelson Pass discussed a dynamic version of an open back slot firing woofer in the DIY newsletter a month or so ago. Once I get resituated, I'm going to put one together, just because I have a bunch of 6 1/2" woofs laying about.
I won't be building anytime soon- I've just sold my house and am moving back out west. Won't have a shop for a while, but when I get set up again, I'll post my results here.
Meantime, Thank all of you for contributing. I have learned a lot and seen a lot of great ideas. Please keep them coming-
Jay
Nelson Pass discussed a dynamic version of an open back slot firing woofer in the DIY newsletter a month or so ago. Once I get resituated, I'm going to put one together, just because I have a bunch of 6 1/2" woofs laying about.
I won't be building anytime soon- I've just sold my house and am moving back out west. Won't have a shop for a while, but when I get set up again, I'll post my results here.
Meantime, Thank all of you for contributing. I have learned a lot and seen a lot of great ideas. Please keep them coming-
Jay
Hello chaps - thanks for doing all the thinking for me!
I know nothing about ESL's so it's nice to have a peep over your shoulder.
I thought I would suggest 3D printing as a way of making the frames or supports for the rod things.
If you can envisage it in 3D cad it can be built for real in PVC, Glass, Stone, siver, bronze or stainless steel using 3D printing.
My friend makes jewelery this way.
Have a look at this company.
Gyroid by Bathsheba on Shapeways
This is just an example of what can me made.
I know nothing about ESL's so it's nice to have a peep over your shoulder.
I thought I would suggest 3D printing as a way of making the frames or supports for the rod things.
If you can envisage it in 3D cad it can be built for real in PVC, Glass, Stone, siver, bronze or stainless steel using 3D printing.
My friend makes jewelery this way.
Have a look at this company.
Gyroid by Bathsheba on Shapeways
This is just an example of what can me made.
I have been thinking about 3D printing as it is a very interesting process,although I am not really sure about the cost factor though.
Jay, good luck on your move and I hope you finally get to the point were you can start doing some more DIYing as I know all about how such things can set you back on doing projects.
Always check back with us when you can as you never know what one of us might come up with next !!! he,he,he
jer
Jay, good luck on your move and I hope you finally get to the point were you can start doing some more DIYing as I know all about how such things can set you back on doing projects.
Always check back with us when you can as you never know what one of us might come up with next !!! he,he,he
jer
I don't know much about 3D printing but I'm thinking I need new sunglasses because the future looks bright. ISU college surplus has auction today now @ $1300 but fuel cell w/3 bids @ $280 sounds nice. Audio during extended power outage or remote excursions, now there's a marketing angle for $100,000 plus system owners.
Well, it appears we have started getting SPAM.
I'm going to pursue my panel idea, and later rethink the whole bannana.
Wire stators are looking better. Stokes had a very viable idea, and it is worth investigating fully. May end up re-doing the system.
I took a look at Sound Labs' website. Some interesting reading.
Please, no more SPAM.
Jay
I'm going to pursue my panel idea, and later rethink the whole bannana.
Wire stators are looking better. Stokes had a very viable idea, and it is worth investigating fully. May end up re-doing the system.
I took a look at Sound Labs' website. Some interesting reading.
Please, no more SPAM.
Jay
I wasn't spamming if you were referring to my shapeways post.
I am understanding a lot more now about these panels and 3D printing would be quite useful. If the problem is that the Sator (??) is beginning to flex that a new grid could be created and printed up with super strength depending on design.
Good luck. It is quite fascinating how these things work.
I am understanding a lot more now about these panels and 3D printing would be quite useful. If the problem is that the Sator (??) is beginning to flex that a new grid could be created and printed up with super strength depending on design.
Good luck. It is quite fascinating how these things work.
Here's something different. The ground effect and response curve they claim is interesting.
Patent US20100278363 - Electrostatic Speaker having Ventilative Diaphragm - Google Patents
Patent US20100278363 - Electrostatic Speaker having Ventilative Diaphragm - Google Patents
Hi,
where are the claimed differences and improvements in that patent?
I consider it as one of those useless patents hardly worth the paper its printed on, apart from 1st of April enjoyment.
Come on...they even don´t explain the basic functioning of an ESL correct (paragraphs 0001 and 0002).
Any stretched membrane without serious dampening methods (like distributed dampening with a mat of damping material) would exhibit a high-Q resonance, which basically every ESL-panel shows (+10...+15dB). Where´s the resonance peak in their measurements? After their own explanation the panel should show an even increased resonance peak. Similar to the functioning of a closed box a ´air-cushion´ would increase the Q considerably.
Reducing membrane area by ventilation holes must reduce sound pressure level, since SPL is a function of area, excursion and how well acoustic impedances match. Decreasing membrane area increases the discrepancy in impedances.
Their description of a 3-layer membrane (PET, nylon-coated on one side and a conductive grafite coating on the other) is politely said rather unusual.
I think it remains highly debatable if the claimed ground-effect that exists in aircraft aerodynamics can be applied to this audio application at all.
Still though, the Korean paper may have some interesting features as diaphragm material. Unfortunately the physical and electrical parameters of interest for Korean Paper are not listed.
jauu
Calvin
where are the claimed differences and improvements in that patent?
I consider it as one of those useless patents hardly worth the paper its printed on, apart from 1st of April enjoyment.
Come on...they even don´t explain the basic functioning of an ESL correct (paragraphs 0001 and 0002).
Any stretched membrane without serious dampening methods (like distributed dampening with a mat of damping material) would exhibit a high-Q resonance, which basically every ESL-panel shows (+10...+15dB). Where´s the resonance peak in their measurements? After their own explanation the panel should show an even increased resonance peak. Similar to the functioning of a closed box a ´air-cushion´ would increase the Q considerably.
Reducing membrane area by ventilation holes must reduce sound pressure level, since SPL is a function of area, excursion and how well acoustic impedances match. Decreasing membrane area increases the discrepancy in impedances.
Their description of a 3-layer membrane (PET, nylon-coated on one side and a conductive grafite coating on the other) is politely said rather unusual.
I think it remains highly debatable if the claimed ground-effect that exists in aircraft aerodynamics can be applied to this audio application at all.
Still though, the Korean paper may have some interesting features as diaphragm material. Unfortunately the physical and electrical parameters of interest for Korean Paper are not listed.
jauu
Calvin
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Yes, it is very vague and questionable.
I got the same out of it as you did Calvin.
I would like to see a working unit with some real tested results in order to believe the claims in the paper.
It would seem more to me that a porous diagphram material would actually reduce the pressure of the wave front coming off of the diagphram thus reducing its efficiency.
Not to mention the mass of the material it self and the types voltages required to make the thing work.
In conjunction with the spacing and Xmax to get a usable SPL.
And Seriously the manufacturing of a Dome that is blocked by a perforated stator (maybe not that big of an issue)?
The tolerance's would have to be very extreme.
Just my thoughts.
jer
P.S. I didn't read it in its entirety but I thought I saw something just not described right in the beginning.
I got the same out of it as you did Calvin.
I would like to see a working unit with some real tested results in order to believe the claims in the paper.
It would seem more to me that a porous diagphram material would actually reduce the pressure of the wave front coming off of the diagphram thus reducing its efficiency.
Not to mention the mass of the material it self and the types voltages required to make the thing work.
In conjunction with the spacing and Xmax to get a usable SPL.
And Seriously the manufacturing of a Dome that is blocked by a perforated stator (maybe not that big of an issue)?
The tolerance's would have to be very extreme.
Just my thoughts.
jer
P.S. I didn't read it in its entirety but I thought I saw something just not described right in the beginning.
Hello Audiofanatic,
Do you know the dimensions of the diaphragms and resonance frequency for the ES-SW?
Are they the same as for the ES-300?
.
Yep !
It's a ES-300 without the full range part in the middle .
Sounds quite good if I may say so myself. I made an ESL that sounds much better than this ES-300, totally different transformer and much more bass than the Audiostatic
If there is enough interest I can start a group buy for the transformer that I designed myself. 1:150 and full range for driving a final 1.2 ESL. With panels that are 1.2 square meter! They are really small for the power they can handle about 130 Diameter x 5 cm high . The Final 1.4 is even bigger and has a different transformer but can also be driven by my transformer to normal listening levels (approx 90 db at 2 meter.
The costs where at that time about Euro 160,= per piece back in 2006.
I wonder what the price will be now. I'll ask them next week, just for fun.
The Panel of the ES-300 is 20 cm x 1.5 meter.
Cheers,
Audiofanatic
It's a ES-300 without the full range part in the middle .
Sounds quite good if I may say so myself. I made an ESL that sounds much better than this ES-300, totally different transformer and much more bass than the Audiostatic
If there is enough interest I can start a group buy for the transformer that I designed myself. 1:150 and full range for driving a final 1.2 ESL. With panels that are 1.2 square meter! They are really small for the power they can handle about 130 Diameter x 5 cm high . The Final 1.4 is even bigger and has a different transformer but can also be driven by my transformer to normal listening levels (approx 90 db at 2 meter.
The costs where at that time about Euro 160,= per piece back in 2006.
I wonder what the price will be now. I'll ask them next week, just for fun.
The Panel of the ES-300 is 20 cm x 1.5 meter.
Cheers,
Audiofanatic
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