Ok, I must admit that the biggest reason I cannot yet tell much about my X3, is the guy I got it from didn't feel a very key point of interest was note worthy. Every amplifier that I have used to date has a 5 way universal binding post, while the X3 has really one of them in spades, which make my locking banana's pretty tough to fit. They also have the mini holes where you can lock down the wire, but no wire I possess would fit in those tiny holes, which left my 1300 dollar cables going to the side, and back to the buck a foot monster wire, with it wrapped around the terminals.
I was shocked after talking to this guy 10 times and many people using banana's, or one of the other ways, that he never thought it note worthy to mention. I did plan on trying about 5 new cables to match this amp, but I hadn't planned on getting new one's to make it play.
My questions
1) My Theta usually with my Krell and even the 150 wpc substitute I used in between the Krell and this had about the same level on my Theta to get the same sound level in my room, but for some reason this X3 requires about 12 more numbers on the dial, and goes from very low to quite loud in about a 4 number movement where the other 2 did so over about 12 numbers.
a- What would explain needing so much more on the volume to get normal listening level
b- why would the range from good listening to flat out loud be 1/3rd the range of the other 2 amps.
The 1st part you just get used to , but teh 2nd I would like to defeat because it gives me less flexibility with sources
I like the sound even with cheap cables and as a 5 month old unit it is broken in, but I can't judge relative when all others were hooked to 1300 dollar cables and this is poorly connected with 30 dollar wires with no connectors. I will be getting a banana to spade attachment from EPO, the local get everything electronic gismo place in Houston tomorrow, and trying the 1st of the 5 cables i planned to see what this puppy likes. My current cables may even work, because this thing sounds deep and recessed, somewhat similar at least with cheap cables to another amp I was thinking of trying, but yours won instead. I say that becasue my Straightwire Serenade is a little bright with Krell's current amp, but was wonderful with it's predescessor, although it was weak on mid definition, and upper extension, which is not the case here.
The other cable I am going to try, I am really curious about, because it is teh one I always use to test amps, to see direction. It is made by BEL labs, which is a one man company that is really Brown Electrical labratories, and in addition to a wonderful pair of hand tweaked mono blocks, he makes a seriously neutral cable, that will gives the speaker whatever it asks for and nothing more. These cables will shut down unstable power supplies and low current output amps, and I love doing it to friends with top receivers, when they think their amps are great, but when matched with a true beast, of which on paper this X series certainly appears, they just make speakers sing. The only question is will deep and recessed love deep and recessed? I am only saying this because when I tested 20 types 5 years ago, selling them used for fun, these cables at 695 beat everything up to 1500 with 10 tested from 1000 to 1500 a pair. They also make amps sound more like your amp sounds even hooked up with crap, so I have no idea what will happen together.
You may actually know this gentleman, because he has been doing this since the 70's and is quite a little boutique amplifier maker. Do you know who I am talking about?
More to come when I get hooked up right, but the amplifier comes very well boxed one of the best I have seen, and is much more awesome to look at then the picture you have on your site. A blowup would really help those that like the visual appeal of an amp, because this thing is so subtle, but so well defined, and the flaring vents look much better in person than in that little picture.
Thank you for all the help, and I am very curious about these 2 effects and any advice or ideas you have.
I was shocked after talking to this guy 10 times and many people using banana's, or one of the other ways, that he never thought it note worthy to mention. I did plan on trying about 5 new cables to match this amp, but I hadn't planned on getting new one's to make it play.
My questions
1) My Theta usually with my Krell and even the 150 wpc substitute I used in between the Krell and this had about the same level on my Theta to get the same sound level in my room, but for some reason this X3 requires about 12 more numbers on the dial, and goes from very low to quite loud in about a 4 number movement where the other 2 did so over about 12 numbers.
a- What would explain needing so much more on the volume to get normal listening level
b- why would the range from good listening to flat out loud be 1/3rd the range of the other 2 amps.
The 1st part you just get used to , but teh 2nd I would like to defeat because it gives me less flexibility with sources
I like the sound even with cheap cables and as a 5 month old unit it is broken in, but I can't judge relative when all others were hooked to 1300 dollar cables and this is poorly connected with 30 dollar wires with no connectors. I will be getting a banana to spade attachment from EPO, the local get everything electronic gismo place in Houston tomorrow, and trying the 1st of the 5 cables i planned to see what this puppy likes. My current cables may even work, because this thing sounds deep and recessed, somewhat similar at least with cheap cables to another amp I was thinking of trying, but yours won instead. I say that becasue my Straightwire Serenade is a little bright with Krell's current amp, but was wonderful with it's predescessor, although it was weak on mid definition, and upper extension, which is not the case here.
The other cable I am going to try, I am really curious about, because it is teh one I always use to test amps, to see direction. It is made by BEL labs, which is a one man company that is really Brown Electrical labratories, and in addition to a wonderful pair of hand tweaked mono blocks, he makes a seriously neutral cable, that will gives the speaker whatever it asks for and nothing more. These cables will shut down unstable power supplies and low current output amps, and I love doing it to friends with top receivers, when they think their amps are great, but when matched with a true beast, of which on paper this X series certainly appears, they just make speakers sing. The only question is will deep and recessed love deep and recessed? I am only saying this because when I tested 20 types 5 years ago, selling them used for fun, these cables at 695 beat everything up to 1500 with 10 tested from 1000 to 1500 a pair. They also make amps sound more like your amp sounds even hooked up with crap, so I have no idea what will happen together.
You may actually know this gentleman, because he has been doing this since the 70's and is quite a little boutique amplifier maker. Do you know who I am talking about?
More to come when I get hooked up right, but the amplifier comes very well boxed one of the best I have seen, and is much more awesome to look at then the picture you have on your site. A blowup would really help those that like the visual appeal of an amp, because this thing is so subtle, but so well defined, and the flaring vents look much better in person than in that little picture.
Thank you for all the help, and I am very curious about these 2 effects and any advice or ideas you have.
Hi
The firs is easy because the gain is much lower of you new amplifier and therfore you need to crank up the volume.
The second is more difficult at what numbers are you talking I have the Theta CBIII.
But what I suspect because your volume control is logaritmic the firs part raise the volume very slow and the last part very quick.
So tha could be the problem that you adjust soundlevels in the top part of your volume control.
Rob
The firs is easy because the gain is much lower of you new amplifier and therfore you need to crank up the volume.
The second is more difficult at what numbers are you talking I have the Theta CBIII.
But what I suspect because your volume control is logaritmic the firs part raise the volume very slow and the last part very quick.
So tha could be the problem that you adjust soundlevels in the top part of your volume control.
Rob
... $1,300 for cables. Cost more than my Aleph 3! (used price)
Addicted Help!!
Did you do any research at all on this amp before buying? If you
go over to the Pass Labs web page you can read all about the
X - Amps and see pictures and everything! Somewhere in there
the literature even comments about speaker cable...
Addicted Help!!
Did you do any research at all on this amp before buying? If you
go over to the Pass Labs web page you can read all about the
X - Amps and see pictures and everything! Somewhere in there
the literature even comments about speaker cable...
The gain figure for the amplifier is 30 dB, so that's not it.
If using single ended inputs, are you also using the necessary
shorting jumpers between pins 1 and 3 on the XLR inputs?
New amplifiers are shipped with these in place.
Regarding the output connectors, that's just the way it is. Most
of these amplifiers are shipped into countries with interesting
ideas about protecting the consumer from the output voltage,
although I am unaware of any case of a user getting a shock
from the output of a 100 watt amp. In any case, the alternatives
which would make you happy are either not legal for export or
very expensive or don't fit the metal we have in stock.
Our supplier is currently working up an output connector which
will fill the bill, and no doubt it will be put in the product
someday, along with a price increase.
If using single ended inputs, are you also using the necessary
shorting jumpers between pins 1 and 3 on the XLR inputs?
New amplifiers are shipped with these in place.
Regarding the output connectors, that's just the way it is. Most
of these amplifiers are shipped into countries with interesting
ideas about protecting the consumer from the output voltage,
although I am unaware of any case of a user getting a shock
from the output of a 100 watt amp. In any case, the alternatives
which would make you happy are either not legal for export or
very expensive or don't fit the metal we have in stock.
Our supplier is currently working up an output connector which
will fill the bill, and no doubt it will be put in the product
someday, along with a price increase.
Re: Re: Nelson X3 arrival questions
Most likely they are of the low inductance / high capacitance
variety. If that's the case, then they can sometimes cause
oscillation in amps with higher feedback because they are not
generally terminated in their characteristic impedance, which
is lower than conventional cable. If unterminated, they will
ring, usually at around a megaHertz, which is often the
vulnerable frequency range of power amplifiers.
The solution is to terminate the cable at the speaker end with
something resembling its characteristic impedance, say a .1 uF
capacitor in series with a 5 to 10 ohm resistor.
There is more on this subject in the speaker cable article at
either www.passlabs.com or www.passdiy.com (I forget which)
along with some nifty photos of speaker cables ringing like this.
Most likely they are of the low inductance / high capacitance
variety. If that's the case, then they can sometimes cause
oscillation in amps with higher feedback because they are not
generally terminated in their characteristic impedance, which
is lower than conventional cable. If unterminated, they will
ring, usually at around a megaHertz, which is often the
vulnerable frequency range of power amplifiers.
The solution is to terminate the cable at the speaker end with
something resembling its characteristic impedance, say a .1 uF
capacitor in series with a 5 to 10 ohm resistor.
There is more on this subject in the speaker cable article at
either www.passlabs.com or www.passdiy.com (I forget which)
along with some nifty photos of speaker cables ringing like this.
As the buyer, it is your job to figure out if what you are buying meets your needs. Considering you asked all your questions about the amp on this forum _after_ you placed the order, it's not all that surprising to learn you didn't make an informed decision. From what you said it seems _you_ never bothered to mention that your $1300, amp-busting cables are terminated with bananas. Are you actually faulting the guy for not reading your mind?
Geting remedial but ok
YOur posts seem to rely on factors that are consistently unknown, but also the opposite of what you assume, and this is no exception. The guy was told specifically what cable and termination that I use on multiple occassions, which is my central point.
Also, and this is key, that I guess you don't know this, but almost all multi channel amps, every one I have ever used or seen have what is called 5 way universal binding posts, which accomodate many types of connections, and when for your over a decade of experience with such amps, and more than 200 actual units bought and sold on the used market you have never seen even one that wasn't that way, you have no reason to even suspect one is out there. I dont' want to beat a dead horse, but I can't see how you dont' get that obvious point.
If I owned an amp, that was the one amp in say a 100 that had this extremely rare single way of the common 5 to hook up only, even if I wasn't told that the other guy had banana's which this guy was in plural, I would tell him upfront that this was the case, because to assume everyone uses spades is stupid, when you are considering everyone else should not for a moment consider you might use one of the other 4 major ways to hook up speaker cables. Your own logic suggests that he can't assume I use something that is a 4 in 5 shot I do, but I should assume that this thing does use something that is a 1 in 5 chance, and every other one with 100's seen has had all 5 for over a decade, and I actually told him multiple times what I did in fact use. I hope you find that funny when you realize it, because that is with numbers what you said. I don't make many 1 in 5 guesses, but 4 in 5 is a pretty good educated guess.
If I hadn't told him, than I wouldn't have posted that, but since you don't know me, continually assuming ways that make a good argument, but are not in fact what happened, may not be the best way to proceed accurately.
I do not find this fun or productive, and I really don't know why you even got into this thread, but I am here for information and fun, and am getting neither from these types of posts, so I would like to suggest that we just quit this, and I will not visit any of your posts, and hopefully you can do me the same favor. Response not needed to confirm.
I could list a whole slew of attempts by 3 different mediums without success that led me to having to find Nelson here for the more complicated questions, but what would be the point to you? I have no dealer, live in the 4th largest city in teh US, and love Nelson's past amps. I bought this without ever hearing a Pass labs product, and was pretty sure I would like it , and it appears I was right. People that ask questions with the detail that I did completely from memory, are rarely accussed of not doing their homework, but I did find that part entertaining if you are in fact serious.
Lets see memory
X3 4295 150x3
x5 4500 125x5
x150 4000
x250 6000
x350 9000
x600 18000
x1000 24000
xa 160 18000
xa 200 didnt get price because person didnt have list on that call
The X3, 5 and 150 all share 40 output devices with the 150 20 per channel and when they get the 3 and 5 same amount split up 8 per on the 5, and I got 2 answers on the 3 where it was 13, 13 and 14 center on one call and 14, 14 and 12 on the 2nd, still not sure. My point is without a dealer, their main info guy-(PETER) on vacation the week I looked into it, I did more homework than most people do by far, but since asking about someting you didn't even know existed , and when directly told, the prior owner didnt' even snap too is my obstacle, I think it is really more clearly a case of you just liking to give strangers crud for sport.
I even knew that on Pass site the X3 is rated at 85 pounds as packed and in reality is exactly 70 pounds packed, which was a little interesting. I hope you will honor my request to just avoid one another, because life is too short to randomly mess with complete strangers. I have read both your posts twice and have no idea why you keep listing the value of my speaker cables, but the point of mentioning that was for the irony, that the guy that I bought this from knew exactly what cables I had, what connections I had, and never mentioned that they wouldn't work despite being told this several times, so I have these 1300 dollar cables, that catagorically will not work at this time. I guess you missed the irony of that, or maybe you hate speaker cables, or something else, but I don't make random guesses with strangers, so all I can do is emphasize the reality of what I said in possibly a clearer context for you, so maybe you will now understand what the point of listing that was.
Good luck again, and happy listening.
YOur posts seem to rely on factors that are consistently unknown, but also the opposite of what you assume, and this is no exception. The guy was told specifically what cable and termination that I use on multiple occassions, which is my central point.
Also, and this is key, that I guess you don't know this, but almost all multi channel amps, every one I have ever used or seen have what is called 5 way universal binding posts, which accomodate many types of connections, and when for your over a decade of experience with such amps, and more than 200 actual units bought and sold on the used market you have never seen even one that wasn't that way, you have no reason to even suspect one is out there. I dont' want to beat a dead horse, but I can't see how you dont' get that obvious point.
If I owned an amp, that was the one amp in say a 100 that had this extremely rare single way of the common 5 to hook up only, even if I wasn't told that the other guy had banana's which this guy was in plural, I would tell him upfront that this was the case, because to assume everyone uses spades is stupid, when you are considering everyone else should not for a moment consider you might use one of the other 4 major ways to hook up speaker cables. Your own logic suggests that he can't assume I use something that is a 4 in 5 shot I do, but I should assume that this thing does use something that is a 1 in 5 chance, and every other one with 100's seen has had all 5 for over a decade, and I actually told him multiple times what I did in fact use. I hope you find that funny when you realize it, because that is with numbers what you said. I don't make many 1 in 5 guesses, but 4 in 5 is a pretty good educated guess.
If I hadn't told him, than I wouldn't have posted that, but since you don't know me, continually assuming ways that make a good argument, but are not in fact what happened, may not be the best way to proceed accurately.
I do not find this fun or productive, and I really don't know why you even got into this thread, but I am here for information and fun, and am getting neither from these types of posts, so I would like to suggest that we just quit this, and I will not visit any of your posts, and hopefully you can do me the same favor. Response not needed to confirm.
I could list a whole slew of attempts by 3 different mediums without success that led me to having to find Nelson here for the more complicated questions, but what would be the point to you? I have no dealer, live in the 4th largest city in teh US, and love Nelson's past amps. I bought this without ever hearing a Pass labs product, and was pretty sure I would like it , and it appears I was right. People that ask questions with the detail that I did completely from memory, are rarely accussed of not doing their homework, but I did find that part entertaining if you are in fact serious.
Lets see memory
X3 4295 150x3
x5 4500 125x5
x150 4000
x250 6000
x350 9000
x600 18000
x1000 24000
xa 160 18000
xa 200 didnt get price because person didnt have list on that call
The X3, 5 and 150 all share 40 output devices with the 150 20 per channel and when they get the 3 and 5 same amount split up 8 per on the 5, and I got 2 answers on the 3 where it was 13, 13 and 14 center on one call and 14, 14 and 12 on the 2nd, still not sure. My point is without a dealer, their main info guy-(PETER) on vacation the week I looked into it, I did more homework than most people do by far, but since asking about someting you didn't even know existed , and when directly told, the prior owner didnt' even snap too is my obstacle, I think it is really more clearly a case of you just liking to give strangers crud for sport.
I even knew that on Pass site the X3 is rated at 85 pounds as packed and in reality is exactly 70 pounds packed, which was a little interesting. I hope you will honor my request to just avoid one another, because life is too short to randomly mess with complete strangers. I have read both your posts twice and have no idea why you keep listing the value of my speaker cables, but the point of mentioning that was for the irony, that the guy that I bought this from knew exactly what cables I had, what connections I had, and never mentioned that they wouldn't work despite being told this several times, so I have these 1300 dollar cables, that catagorically will not work at this time. I guess you missed the irony of that, or maybe you hate speaker cables, or something else, but I don't make random guesses with strangers, so all I can do is emphasize the reality of what I said in possibly a clearer context for you, so maybe you will now understand what the point of listing that was.
Good luck again, and happy listening.
I and a lot of the people around here would agree that unless these cables are made from solid gold, they'er not worth more than $150.00. Sorry if that offends anyone. I'd suggest selling them (hopefully you can find someone who equates money with quality) or cut the bannanas off of one end and solder on spades.
Hope you enjoy the amps. I agree that they are lookers.
Hope you enjoy the amps. I agree that they are lookers.
Brian
Unfortunately , while I agree that your opinion is your opinion, I didn't base quality on cost in anyway, but instead did it the old fashion way where you take a series of cables in many different price points and actually try them, and than you have someone take the one's you like, and blind A/b them, and than you pick.
There is a serious difference in cables, and some of it is related to cost, while others are snake oil, which is more than likely where these views come from. I tested more than 20 cables used and sold them as I went through them, and I found that one of the very best, and certainly best for cost was the Bell's which there are less than 10 dealers world wide, and his amps are really serious also, and he makes 2 models where one is 600 for 3 meters and they have 24 stands per side, and the other is the exact same cable with 12 strands, and 300 per pair for 3 meters. These cables outperformed many upwards of a 1000, but cables do matter, just not to the extent that some marketing people allude, and a real key is your equipment level should dictate your cable level, because going below takes from performance you already bought, and thus raises the question of why spend 4500 on a amp if you aren't going to finish the process. Another factor is matching which is your run length, amp and speaker, and that can make a cheaper pair work better than more expensive.
All that said, I paid 350 bucks for those 1300 dollar cables and at that price woudl recommend them all day long. Another factor in the cable game which tarnishes them is for every real cable there are 3 that are well packaged with no real technology in them, and they are marketed to wealthy deaf people. If you took the 300 dollar Bel's and put them in your system you would notice a measureable difference in sound, but depending on your equipment, would factor to how great they sound.
I personally check speaker cables each time I change speakers or amps, and since I changed speakers after a decade with my Inifinity Kappa 7's to the new Kappa 600's and knew I was getting a new amp which I finally did, I waited, and the only reason I brought up how much my cables cost was for the Irony of it, because it matters not how good your cables are if the amp connection and cable connection are incompatible. I don't know what you use, or even what sound you like, so I am limited what I can say about Bel's beyond that.
Lastly, You do realize when people talk about cables they are almost exclusively talking about performance on 2 channel stereo music, and not at movies at all right? It is in the area of focus and sound staging, and placement of instruments in the stage that are effected by cables, which all rely on soundstaging, which is almost completely void in HT applications because everything is achieved through direct dedicated sound fields instead. If all you did was movies, or heavily movies first than I would have to agree with you.
If you ever want to try a really good and rare set of speaker cables, I will gladly help you get them and mail them to you, but as I said on email I have done this 11 times and all 11 kept them, but if you didnt, you would have to sell them, because they don't take returns, and only demo overnight locally. I am a 100% sure you would hear a difference.
I went into my test several years ago thinking cables were probably snake oil, but I am one of those show me kind of people and after testing them I became humble about my prior view, because the differences were not subtle, and I was not an expert in anyway, and I and everyone in my house shared the same views on the subject. To take the example to the Nth degree, and this is true, when I have the Bells hooked up and I play natalie Merchant from 10,000 Maniacs and play Jealousy, the octaves are so well formed and tight that my wifes love birds go nutts when she carries the long note and they start singing, and when I do teh same song with by the foot cable they dont make a peep, so while their musical interpretation is obviously none, they can even hear a cable difference. I know that is wild, but it really freaked us out, and I was shocked I even noticed it.
Good job of expressing your disagreement without being rude about it, I wish more people practiced this skill, because this way I tell you why I have my view, and you get more information about whether we may be similar of dissimilar in type, instead of just ****ing each other off.
Unfortunately , while I agree that your opinion is your opinion, I didn't base quality on cost in anyway, but instead did it the old fashion way where you take a series of cables in many different price points and actually try them, and than you have someone take the one's you like, and blind A/b them, and than you pick.
There is a serious difference in cables, and some of it is related to cost, while others are snake oil, which is more than likely where these views come from. I tested more than 20 cables used and sold them as I went through them, and I found that one of the very best, and certainly best for cost was the Bell's which there are less than 10 dealers world wide, and his amps are really serious also, and he makes 2 models where one is 600 for 3 meters and they have 24 stands per side, and the other is the exact same cable with 12 strands, and 300 per pair for 3 meters. These cables outperformed many upwards of a 1000, but cables do matter, just not to the extent that some marketing people allude, and a real key is your equipment level should dictate your cable level, because going below takes from performance you already bought, and thus raises the question of why spend 4500 on a amp if you aren't going to finish the process. Another factor is matching which is your run length, amp and speaker, and that can make a cheaper pair work better than more expensive.
All that said, I paid 350 bucks for those 1300 dollar cables and at that price woudl recommend them all day long. Another factor in the cable game which tarnishes them is for every real cable there are 3 that are well packaged with no real technology in them, and they are marketed to wealthy deaf people. If you took the 300 dollar Bel's and put them in your system you would notice a measureable difference in sound, but depending on your equipment, would factor to how great they sound.
I personally check speaker cables each time I change speakers or amps, and since I changed speakers after a decade with my Inifinity Kappa 7's to the new Kappa 600's and knew I was getting a new amp which I finally did, I waited, and the only reason I brought up how much my cables cost was for the Irony of it, because it matters not how good your cables are if the amp connection and cable connection are incompatible. I don't know what you use, or even what sound you like, so I am limited what I can say about Bel's beyond that.
Lastly, You do realize when people talk about cables they are almost exclusively talking about performance on 2 channel stereo music, and not at movies at all right? It is in the area of focus and sound staging, and placement of instruments in the stage that are effected by cables, which all rely on soundstaging, which is almost completely void in HT applications because everything is achieved through direct dedicated sound fields instead. If all you did was movies, or heavily movies first than I would have to agree with you.
If you ever want to try a really good and rare set of speaker cables, I will gladly help you get them and mail them to you, but as I said on email I have done this 11 times and all 11 kept them, but if you didnt, you would have to sell them, because they don't take returns, and only demo overnight locally. I am a 100% sure you would hear a difference.
I went into my test several years ago thinking cables were probably snake oil, but I am one of those show me kind of people and after testing them I became humble about my prior view, because the differences were not subtle, and I was not an expert in anyway, and I and everyone in my house shared the same views on the subject. To take the example to the Nth degree, and this is true, when I have the Bells hooked up and I play natalie Merchant from 10,000 Maniacs and play Jealousy, the octaves are so well formed and tight that my wifes love birds go nutts when she carries the long note and they start singing, and when I do teh same song with by the foot cable they dont make a peep, so while their musical interpretation is obviously none, they can even hear a cable difference. I know that is wild, but it really freaked us out, and I was shocked I even noticed it.
Good job of expressing your disagreement without being rude about it, I wish more people practiced this skill, because this way I tell you why I have my view, and you get more information about whether we may be similar of dissimilar in type, instead of just ****ing each other off.
I responded but by email
I didn't know you were actually asking a question, but instead thought it was a statement. I did answer you by email, because for some reason this 2nd time email appeared instead of reply, but I did so to ask a question that I left on your email, because if the unit would play but shouldn't like that without the jumpers I was curious why not make them where they couldn't and why other amps dont' even come with plugs, and also how that would relate to surpressed volume, and what could possibly happen.
I didn't know you were actually asking a question, but instead thought it was a statement. I did answer you by email, because for some reason this 2nd time email appeared instead of reply, but I did so to ask a question that I left on your email, because if the unit would play but shouldn't like that without the jumpers I was curious why not make them where they couldn't and why other amps dont' even come with plugs, and also how that would relate to surpressed volume, and what could possibly happen.
Re: Re: Re: Nelson X3 arrival questions
Good article, thanks Nelson. It's at:
http://www.passlabs.com/pdf/spkrcabl.pdf
I hope you don't mind if I quote you from the article:
"For 10 foot lengths with properly terminated cables and speakers with inductive high frequency characteristics, the differences between low inductance cable and twin conductor are extremely subtle and subject to question."
Nelson Pass said:
Good article, thanks Nelson. It's at:
http://www.passlabs.com/pdf/spkrcabl.pdf
I hope you don't mind if I quote you from the article:
"For 10 foot lengths with properly terminated cables and speakers with inductive high frequency characteristics, the differences between low inductance cable and twin conductor are extremely subtle and subject to question."
Addict
If you spent $350 for cables to connect your $4300 amps, I'de say that that is quite resonable. And if you take care of them, you cold likey sell them for $350 and have the pleasure of there use for free. I think your double blind tests are a very good way to get the best system for yourself. And since we live in the same little $hit kicking little redneck town, I may hunt you down. After my life can settle down from "the move" I may let you see my home made Aleph2s. Forgive me, I had to bait the new meat.
Happy listening and welcome to the show. We have a few very well respected professionals around here. As well as Mr. Pass, John Curl, The designer of the Parasound amps and last years Amp of the year (I think Stereophile), Parasound Halo JC1. There are a few others That I can't remember off hand as well.
Hang around and we'll have you hocking those clubs for a good Hakko and drill press in no time.
If you spent $350 for cables to connect your $4300 amps, I'de say that that is quite resonable. And if you take care of them, you cold likey sell them for $350 and have the pleasure of there use for free. I think your double blind tests are a very good way to get the best system for yourself. And since we live in the same little $hit kicking little redneck town, I may hunt you down. After my life can settle down from "the move" I may let you see my home made Aleph2s. Forgive me, I had to bait the new meat.
Happy listening and welcome to the show. We have a few very well respected professionals around here. As well as Mr. Pass, John Curl, The designer of the Parasound amps and last years Amp of the year (I think Stereophile), Parasound Halo JC1. There are a few others That I can't remember off hand as well.
Hang around and we'll have you hocking those clubs for a good Hakko and drill press in no time.
I love the article but questions
When i tested cables I simply did them by hearing varieties of challenging music, and having multiple people take part, and as I already stated for every one good one, I found 3 that were more hype than anything else. This means that you have a better chance of testing all bad one's than anything else unless you know which one's are good.
Of all the cables you listed, I have only heard of Monster, and they were one of my tests, and a very interesting outcome with that brand. I originally started with Monster's best 2 buck by the foot cables, and when I tested their better stuff, the M series 2.2, with teh .2 being simply non bi-wired, and the .4 version being bi wired, and they had some of the best bass slam of any of the cables I tested, but had a very cluttered mid to top range on them. It was so cluttered that I started to wonder if even their by the foot was like that, and I had forgotten, because it had been with lessor equipment I used when I had last used it, so I got some out and hooked it up and while it didn't have that low end slam I describe it also didn't have that cluttered top and mid, so their by the foot was better than their 700 for a pair M series.
If a cable sounds better on staging, height and width, tightness of focus, when listening to music are there inherant numbers on a actuarial analysis that should show drastically different readings?
I really wish you would get a pair of these Bel's and in fact both types, just so when you hear a difference in the same line but with lessor stands, the outcome as far as do they make a difference would already be confirmed, than it would just be do they translate into readings.
If speaker cables don't make any difference, than why can some types like these shut down amps that are on the weaker side of the amp chain? It would seem that if they don't matter than either all of them shut down amps or none of them shut down amps It also would to me seem more than subtle for one to do it and another not. Obviously this has nothing to do with making them sound better for that reason, but it would be a measurable difference and this sounds like the argument is that they don't have a signifigant difference from one cable to another.
The salesman , which at this shop are actually somewhat knowledgeable about gear and also enthusiast's themselves for the most part, try to basically say that these cables simply don't color at all, and at the same time don't cover up things either, so kind of a GIGO type mentality. If I ever get a 2nd pair of them, I suppose I could send you my 1st pair and let you experiment with them, because at least in this instance I strongly believe they make a difference, and I used to be just like most of the people I am reading here, but after you hear it, and it is obvious to your own senses, I had no choice but to make that my new reality based on my own personal experience.
These cables are not fancy, don't look expensive, are smaller than a fountain pen thick, and are solid black with small white print that says BEL- The Wire-SB-24, so they are the generic of generic as far as marketing appeal.
I asked the other day, but have you ever heard of or met Dick Brown, the founder and sole employee of BEL? He also sells power cords, but has a very interesting relative to this thread view on them, and that is they are 2 meters and 25 bucks, and when you ask since they are so much cheaper than all those fancy 500 dollar one's you see today, are they good , they say they are the best they have seen. You than ask why are they so much less than so many others, and they say becauase BEL only puts out as good of a cable as you can get, and for a power cable you can't get any better than what you get for 25 bucks. He views for a power cable 25 is all you can get, but for speaker cable it is 700 bucks for the better one.
I look foward to your answers to these testing questions, because I have no familiarity with such tests, but instead only the good ole ear to air approach, and I really have no idea what to expect in the answers. The owner of this dealer said that he tried several Threshold amps to try and drive a pair of huge electrostats that he had in teh 70's and that none could, and that is when he met this Bel guy becausae his were the only one's that could. I don't know if that is true, and my speakers have no such limitations, but he claims the problem with these speakers was that they went from 1 to 64 ohms , and that was hell on every amp they tried but this BEL amp which he has used ever since that time. He said it like I was supposed to drop my new Pass and get one of his BEL's, and I almost lauged because I got to PASS for sound and just came from power hungry speakers,so I knew at that point that he hadn't listened to anything I had already told him, but was instead trying a very old and ineffective sales pitch. Unfortunately, as a fellow salesman, but one that has some skills involved I debated whether I even wanted to try the speaker cables after that, because doing so to some degree would be supporting a person that employs such lowly tactics. Have you ever heard of a speaker that was in the 70's and goes from 1 to 64 ohms?
When i tested cables I simply did them by hearing varieties of challenging music, and having multiple people take part, and as I already stated for every one good one, I found 3 that were more hype than anything else. This means that you have a better chance of testing all bad one's than anything else unless you know which one's are good.
Of all the cables you listed, I have only heard of Monster, and they were one of my tests, and a very interesting outcome with that brand. I originally started with Monster's best 2 buck by the foot cables, and when I tested their better stuff, the M series 2.2, with teh .2 being simply non bi-wired, and the .4 version being bi wired, and they had some of the best bass slam of any of the cables I tested, but had a very cluttered mid to top range on them. It was so cluttered that I started to wonder if even their by the foot was like that, and I had forgotten, because it had been with lessor equipment I used when I had last used it, so I got some out and hooked it up and while it didn't have that low end slam I describe it also didn't have that cluttered top and mid, so their by the foot was better than their 700 for a pair M series.
If a cable sounds better on staging, height and width, tightness of focus, when listening to music are there inherant numbers on a actuarial analysis that should show drastically different readings?
I really wish you would get a pair of these Bel's and in fact both types, just so when you hear a difference in the same line but with lessor stands, the outcome as far as do they make a difference would already be confirmed, than it would just be do they translate into readings.
If speaker cables don't make any difference, than why can some types like these shut down amps that are on the weaker side of the amp chain? It would seem that if they don't matter than either all of them shut down amps or none of them shut down amps It also would to me seem more than subtle for one to do it and another not. Obviously this has nothing to do with making them sound better for that reason, but it would be a measurable difference and this sounds like the argument is that they don't have a signifigant difference from one cable to another.
The salesman , which at this shop are actually somewhat knowledgeable about gear and also enthusiast's themselves for the most part, try to basically say that these cables simply don't color at all, and at the same time don't cover up things either, so kind of a GIGO type mentality. If I ever get a 2nd pair of them, I suppose I could send you my 1st pair and let you experiment with them, because at least in this instance I strongly believe they make a difference, and I used to be just like most of the people I am reading here, but after you hear it, and it is obvious to your own senses, I had no choice but to make that my new reality based on my own personal experience.
These cables are not fancy, don't look expensive, are smaller than a fountain pen thick, and are solid black with small white print that says BEL- The Wire-SB-24, so they are the generic of generic as far as marketing appeal.
I asked the other day, but have you ever heard of or met Dick Brown, the founder and sole employee of BEL? He also sells power cords, but has a very interesting relative to this thread view on them, and that is they are 2 meters and 25 bucks, and when you ask since they are so much cheaper than all those fancy 500 dollar one's you see today, are they good , they say they are the best they have seen. You than ask why are they so much less than so many others, and they say becauase BEL only puts out as good of a cable as you can get, and for a power cable you can't get any better than what you get for 25 bucks. He views for a power cable 25 is all you can get, but for speaker cable it is 700 bucks for the better one.
I look foward to your answers to these testing questions, because I have no familiarity with such tests, but instead only the good ole ear to air approach, and I really have no idea what to expect in the answers. The owner of this dealer said that he tried several Threshold amps to try and drive a pair of huge electrostats that he had in teh 70's and that none could, and that is when he met this Bel guy becausae his were the only one's that could. I don't know if that is true, and my speakers have no such limitations, but he claims the problem with these speakers was that they went from 1 to 64 ohms , and that was hell on every amp they tried but this BEL amp which he has used ever since that time. He said it like I was supposed to drop my new Pass and get one of his BEL's, and I almost lauged because I got to PASS for sound and just came from power hungry speakers,so I knew at that point that he hadn't listened to anything I had already told him, but was instead trying a very old and ineffective sales pitch. Unfortunately, as a fellow salesman, but one that has some skills involved I debated whether I even wanted to try the speaker cables after that, because doing so to some degree would be supporting a person that employs such lowly tactics. Have you ever heard of a speaker that was in the 70's and goes from 1 to 64 ohms?
Addicted Help,
The reason Nelson's asking about the jumpers at the input is that the internal workings of the amp react differently depending on whether the input is single-ended (aka unbalanced) or XLR (balanced).
The X amplifiers are, in a sense, two amplifiers in one. The two halves of the amplifier work together to produce the signal that goes out to the speaker. A balanced signal (that's the 3-pin plug, not the 'normal' RCA connector) provides a signal to each half of the amplifier, which is good. If you use the unbalanced input (the RCA connector) one half of the amplifier receives a signal, but the other half is kinda flopping around with nothing to do. The jumper that Nelson mentions is important because it provides the other half of the amplifier with a signal so that it can take up its share of the load. This has the effect of increasing the gain. If you do not have the jumper in place, the amp will take more signal from the preamp in order to achieve the same volume. In other words, you'll have to turn the volume up further.
I, for one, am still not clear as to whether you do or not not have the jumpers, and if you have them, whether you are using them. Could you please clarify whether you have the jumpers and whether you are using them.
I personally don't care how much your speaker cables cost. It doesn't matter a whit to me whether they cost $5 or $5000. But PaulB's point earlier is a valid one. Any cable that shuts down amplifiers is to be viewed with the greatest suspicion. If a speaker cable triggers the protection circuitry in an amplifier it is almost certainly because it is highly reactive. The term reactive in this case means that it has a lot of capacitance and/or inductance. These are not desirable characteristics for a wire. They also will have an effect on the sound quality--in essence the cable becomes a tone control. The tone control may suit your system...or it may not. But neutral sounding? Unlikely.
Judging the quality of an amplifier by whether it shuts down when presented with an unruly speaker cable isn't realistic. Some amplifiers have protection circuitry. Some don't. The ones that don't will not shut down when the speaker cable is attached, although they may burn up. The ones that do have protection circuitry may or may not shut down, depending on other factors.
I gather that you are happy with your speaker cables. That's good. But please give PaulB's point some thought.
Grey
The reason Nelson's asking about the jumpers at the input is that the internal workings of the amp react differently depending on whether the input is single-ended (aka unbalanced) or XLR (balanced).
The X amplifiers are, in a sense, two amplifiers in one. The two halves of the amplifier work together to produce the signal that goes out to the speaker. A balanced signal (that's the 3-pin plug, not the 'normal' RCA connector) provides a signal to each half of the amplifier, which is good. If you use the unbalanced input (the RCA connector) one half of the amplifier receives a signal, but the other half is kinda flopping around with nothing to do. The jumper that Nelson mentions is important because it provides the other half of the amplifier with a signal so that it can take up its share of the load. This has the effect of increasing the gain. If you do not have the jumper in place, the amp will take more signal from the preamp in order to achieve the same volume. In other words, you'll have to turn the volume up further.
I, for one, am still not clear as to whether you do or not not have the jumpers, and if you have them, whether you are using them. Could you please clarify whether you have the jumpers and whether you are using them.
I personally don't care how much your speaker cables cost. It doesn't matter a whit to me whether they cost $5 or $5000. But PaulB's point earlier is a valid one. Any cable that shuts down amplifiers is to be viewed with the greatest suspicion. If a speaker cable triggers the protection circuitry in an amplifier it is almost certainly because it is highly reactive. The term reactive in this case means that it has a lot of capacitance and/or inductance. These are not desirable characteristics for a wire. They also will have an effect on the sound quality--in essence the cable becomes a tone control. The tone control may suit your system...or it may not. But neutral sounding? Unlikely.
Judging the quality of an amplifier by whether it shuts down when presented with an unruly speaker cable isn't realistic. Some amplifiers have protection circuitry. Some don't. The ones that don't will not shut down when the speaker cable is attached, although they may burn up. The ones that do have protection circuitry may or may not shut down, depending on other factors.
I gather that you are happy with your speaker cables. That's good. But please give PaulB's point some thought.
Grey
To much off the path for me
It really doesn't matter in your world because speaker cables don't matter to begin with to you, and therefore why would a facet of them that only happens with really cheap amplifiers that are below the level you use be so relevant when how they sound has already been concluded to be subtle if different at all? I get so confused when I look at that in perspective.
Does your latest email imply that because of this facet with cheap amps, the sound on a good amp could not be good? It reads that way, and please explain if that is what you meant because one has absolutely nothing to do with the other, and you really have me curious now.
This is not the 1st cable that has done this, and most of them that do tend to be the higher performance level types, so I am very surprised that this concept is so foreign here. I found the statement about buying a cable because of this facet to be really silly, and given the way I have been jumped on for mentioning a fact, I am extremely surprised that when someone says something so out there, and so clearly in no way the reason you do buy a set of speaker cables that he wasn't jumped on, and now if I take your post literally, is being agreed with.
Again, the only reason that was mentioned at all was because I thought these two guys may know each other from way back, and if the name which I didn't have his 1st name that night didn't ring a bell, maybe the cables of which only a small amount in the market are that type may, and had I known this serious left turn was going to made on the subject , I never would have said that at all.
HOW I SEE the LOGIC OF WHAT YOU AGREE WITH:
For this illustration assume that interplanetary travel is not possible, nor is it planned for the future including your life span.
If a widget works incredible on a wank, but will kill a wog, but wog's are only on another planet, than by both of your logic as wank owner's, you would never consider a widget, out of fear of what it could potentially harm a wog from another planet. As crud as that is,that is what you are saying, and it makes not a lick of sense to me whatsoever. - I am not saying that to be rude, but since you actually agree with something I see as completely illogical, and even wondered with it being so illogical to begin with as more of a smart guy remark than anything anyone would sincerely say, I want to understand what I must be missing.
In closing, so you are saying that when an RCA is used if you didn't have the straps on there, you would be using only 1/2 the resources of the amp?
It really doesn't matter in your world because speaker cables don't matter to begin with to you, and therefore why would a facet of them that only happens with really cheap amplifiers that are below the level you use be so relevant when how they sound has already been concluded to be subtle if different at all? I get so confused when I look at that in perspective.
Does your latest email imply that because of this facet with cheap amps, the sound on a good amp could not be good? It reads that way, and please explain if that is what you meant because one has absolutely nothing to do with the other, and you really have me curious now.
This is not the 1st cable that has done this, and most of them that do tend to be the higher performance level types, so I am very surprised that this concept is so foreign here. I found the statement about buying a cable because of this facet to be really silly, and given the way I have been jumped on for mentioning a fact, I am extremely surprised that when someone says something so out there, and so clearly in no way the reason you do buy a set of speaker cables that he wasn't jumped on, and now if I take your post literally, is being agreed with.
Again, the only reason that was mentioned at all was because I thought these two guys may know each other from way back, and if the name which I didn't have his 1st name that night didn't ring a bell, maybe the cables of which only a small amount in the market are that type may, and had I known this serious left turn was going to made on the subject , I never would have said that at all.
HOW I SEE the LOGIC OF WHAT YOU AGREE WITH:
For this illustration assume that interplanetary travel is not possible, nor is it planned for the future including your life span.
If a widget works incredible on a wank, but will kill a wog, but wog's are only on another planet, than by both of your logic as wank owner's, you would never consider a widget, out of fear of what it could potentially harm a wog from another planet. As crud as that is,that is what you are saying, and it makes not a lick of sense to me whatsoever. - I am not saying that to be rude, but since you actually agree with something I see as completely illogical, and even wondered with it being so illogical to begin with as more of a smart guy remark than anything anyone would sincerely say, I want to understand what I must be missing.
In closing, so you are saying that when an RCA is used if you didn't have the straps on there, you would be using only 1/2 the resources of the amp?
read carefully
Addicted -
I think you somewhat misinterpreted what Grey has said (although maybe I did too!). It makes sense to me, and I don' t think he was pronouncing that these cables are bad, or that they don't make a difference. Here's the argument as I see it:
Because they cause some amps to switch off, the cables are likely to be highly reactive. Highly reactive cables by their nature will change the tonal qualities, and therefore they are NOT neutral, as they were claimed to be. This also does not mean that they will necessarily sound bad.
Also, the fact that an amplifier cannot run with this cables does not imply that it is a poor sounding amplifier. It only means that the amplifier cannot handle the reactive load of the cables. (although higher quality amps might be more likely to be able to handle them)
does that help?
Addicted -
I think you somewhat misinterpreted what Grey has said (although maybe I did too!). It makes sense to me, and I don' t think he was pronouncing that these cables are bad, or that they don't make a difference. Here's the argument as I see it:
Because they cause some amps to switch off, the cables are likely to be highly reactive. Highly reactive cables by their nature will change the tonal qualities, and therefore they are NOT neutral, as they were claimed to be. This also does not mean that they will necessarily sound bad.
Also, the fact that an amplifier cannot run with this cables does not imply that it is a poor sounding amplifier. It only means that the amplifier cannot handle the reactive load of the cables. (although higher quality amps might be more likely to be able to handle them)
does that help?
Addicted Help,
You said 'your latest e-mail,' presumably in response to my post. I don't recall having posted to you here at DIYaudio before, and I know that I haven't e-mailed you. So, frankly, I'm a little confused.
You don't seem to have understood what I wrote about speaker cables. If the subject of speaker cables is going to be this emotional, then let's drop it and go on to the amplifer gain question.
I checked, and the owner's manual for the X-3 is available online as a PDF file at www.passlabs.com. On page 3, it notes that if you are driving the amplifier single-ended (i.e. with an RCA plug), to "leave the supplied jumpers in place (between pins 1 & 3 on the XLR)."
You still haven't answered whether you're using balanced or unbalanced inputs, but I'm going to assume for the moment that you are using the unbalanced inputs, and further, that you don't have or aren't using the jumpers.
Yes, failure to use the jumpers will result in lower volume.
If you don't have the jumpers (I gather that you bought the amplifier used), then I'm sure Nelson can be persuaded to part with a set. He's a nice guy.
Grey
You said 'your latest e-mail,' presumably in response to my post. I don't recall having posted to you here at DIYaudio before, and I know that I haven't e-mailed you. So, frankly, I'm a little confused.
You don't seem to have understood what I wrote about speaker cables. If the subject of speaker cables is going to be this emotional, then let's drop it and go on to the amplifer gain question.
I checked, and the owner's manual for the X-3 is available online as a PDF file at www.passlabs.com. On page 3, it notes that if you are driving the amplifier single-ended (i.e. with an RCA plug), to "leave the supplied jumpers in place (between pins 1 & 3 on the XLR)."
You still haven't answered whether you're using balanced or unbalanced inputs, but I'm going to assume for the moment that you are using the unbalanced inputs, and further, that you don't have or aren't using the jumpers.
Yes, failure to use the jumpers will result in lower volume.
If you don't have the jumpers (I gather that you bought the amplifier used), then I'm sure Nelson can be persuaded to part with a set. He's a nice guy.
Grey
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