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Faital Pro 4fe32 is probably your best bet.
50% more power handling than his little brother 3fe22 and higher efficiency from 200hz, while not losing much higher frequencies (roll off starts around 15khz, not bad at all)
On the budget side, i'd choose Visaton FR 10, as you might not be able to find anything better for the price and in relation with your specific needs.
as i understand you can't push the 12'' sub any further than 200hz so you need some decent energy starting that low (if you want to get good SPL output) and that 200-500hz region will be the main challenge for your project.
That's why i think 4fe32 and FR10 are better options.
IMO, most sound-reinforcement (often mis-referenced as P.A.) speaker systems sound utterly awful. There are certainly exceptions, but they are quite rare. And usually, the exceptions are quite expensive, which helps to keep them rare.
Most of the awfulness I hear in the typical pro-audio speaker comes from horn compression tweeters with nasty frequency response irregularities and accompanying nasal / screechy sound quality, often combined with excessive directivity and a lack of real highs.
In short, it is usually not hard to improve on the sound quality of typical pro-audio speaker systems. (But you give up maximum SPL capability to do it; those nasty-sounding compression tweeters can get very loud.)
You mentioned an audience of musicians. Interestingly, decades ago, in the days when large research studies conducted large-scale listening tests of Hi-Fi equipment, it was found that musicians were among the worst test subjects when it came to assessing sound quality.
The reason turned out to be, that the musicians listen to the music, instead of to the flaws in the sound reproduction system. They didn't notice crappy sound, because they were busy listening intently to the music itself.
I believe this same state of affairs continues unchanged today. I started out as an ardent music listener (Hi-Fi) when I was young, then became a musician later in life, so I have a foot in each camp. And I am constantly amazed at the extremely poor sound quality of most live music, and at the fact that it doesn't bother most musicians at all. Some will notice if they do finally hear something much better, but many will not.
I think the extreme awfulness of most everyday pro-audio speaker systems is allowed to continue because most musicians never notice how bad it is. This lets the manufacturers continue to churn out awful-sounding stuff, knowing there will still be a market for it, as long as the price is competitive with the other awful stuff out there.
Those people who do notice good sound, being in the minority, will have to pay through the nose for "premium" pro-audio speakers if they want something that isn't awful.
My "gigs" consist of jams with around ten to a dozen musicians, and no audience. I don't need high SPL. I use a 30-watt Acoustic AG30 (acoustic guitar amp) as my P.A. It has an 8" woofer with a coaxial soft-dome tweeter, all housed in a wedge-shaped enclosure. Sound quality is vastly better than the majority of affordable pro audio speakers - but all of them can make much louder nasty noises, if that's what you need.
Compared to the usual pro audio / sound-reinforcement speaker system, I have no doubt you are getting much better sound quality with your quick-n-dirty line array: you got rid of the nasty horn tweeters, and that is where most of the awful sound usually comes from!
-Gnobuddy
Gnobuddy, the funny thing is I am a working mixing and mastering engineer as well as a "picker" and have several great speaker as reference including Dynaudio and B&W 801s. (-: I just might know a tiny bit about it (-:
Here is the funny part. For my own listening I can't stand anything but huge horns, I strictly use the Dynaudios and 801's for work, hate the way they sound in fact, but they are accurate. To me nothing at all comes close to the impact and dynamics and clarity of a first rate huuuuuge 2 way speakers with giant horns the
compression driver run as low as it can plus a first rate antique
15 from EV Altec or JBL in front loaded horns.The *only* reason I am playing with these little full range line arrays is size and weight. If I could take some old Altec A7s crossed over to some 18's to these little gigs in restaurants I damn sure would! I am however surprised at the impact of these tiny line arrays that sound so good that I can use them outside.
Here is the funny part. For my own listening I can't stand anything but huge horns, I strictly use the Dynaudios and 801's for work, hate the way they sound in fact, but they are accurate. To me nothing at all comes close to the impact and dynamics and clarity of a first rate huuuuuge 2 way speakers with giant horns the
compression driver run as low as it can plus a first rate antique
15 from EV Altec or JBL in front loaded horns.The *only* reason I am playing with these little full range line arrays is size and weight. If I could take some old Altec A7s crossed over to some 18's to these little gigs in restaurants I damn sure would! I am however surprised at the impact of these tiny line arrays that sound so good that I can use them outside.
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Don't forget that an eighteen-odd inch long stack of speakers won't be close to a 'line array' at 200Hz! A rough rule of thumb is that it needs to be at least half the wavelength of the lowest frequency, giving a minimum length of about three feet for your proposed crossover frequency.
I have found the Faital FE- series to be very good, and excellent value. You'd just need a dozen or so three-inchers per side...
Cheers, Carl.
I have found the Faital FE- series to be very good, and excellent value. You'd just need a dozen or so three-inchers per side...
Cheers, Carl.
Thanks Carl, et al. I am aware that it is not a true line array but for the sake of expedience we will call it that. 6 of them however certainly did exhibit the beneficial loss of vertical dispersion to some degree. I actually had to lower it for my drummer (center and somewhat underneath) to be in the "cone". Still good feedback rejection compared to the Mackie srm450 it is replacing.
My only concern now is the 6 or thereabouts db gain in spl that I need and hope to achieve with the enhanced efficiency of the Faital units above the "generic" soundbar speakers. I am estimating 83 db for the prototype 3" crap drivers and a realistic 89 bd from the Faital 3fe25 units. If anyone sees a hole in my logic please let me know.
The cool thing about my modular design with seperate enclosures per driver is I can add as many units per column as I wish as long as I wire to keep the impedance within 4 to 8 ohms. Amp power and dsp is exceedingly inexpensive these days. ☺
My only concern now is the 6 or thereabouts db gain in spl that I need and hope to achieve with the enhanced efficiency of the Faital units above the "generic" soundbar speakers. I am estimating 83 db for the prototype 3" crap drivers and a realistic 89 bd from the Faital 3fe25 units. If anyone sees a hole in my logic please let me know.
The cool thing about my modular design with seperate enclosures per driver is I can add as many units per column as I wish as long as I wire to keep the impedance within 4 to 8 ohms. Amp power and dsp is exceedingly inexpensive these days. ☺
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Hi there,
6dB is not an appreciable increase in sound level - about 10dB is perceived as 'twice as loud'. I had considered a similar approach using the 5FE120 but discounted it due to limited output for my application. Horses for courses really - what spl do you need in what size venue? Have to say I was very impressed with the driver - if the 3" is half as good you won't be disappointed.
I like the modular concept, and agree about cheap power these days. There will always be the Behringer haters but I use them, analogue or digital, and they are good enough for most DIY speakers in terms of sound quality, and don't even disgrace themselves on my Beyma TPL150s.
Cheers, Carl.
Ok here is a new question, actually 2. I am planning on doing sealed as opposed to tuned vented enclosures.
My design allows me to change the volume of the enclosure on the fly while testing. Given that I only need around 200-250 hz from these, what are the possible drawbacks of using the smallest possible volume that will allow my chosen band to naturally roll off. There won't be a resonant peak in a sealed box as opposed to a vented will there?
I assume the lower roll off freq will just raise higher and higher in a sealed box until the cutoff is higher than my desired 200-250 but not have the "hump" I would encounter from too small of a vented enclosure?
This brings me to the last question. Heat buildup? Oh yeah also fiber damping? Thanks
My design allows me to change the volume of the enclosure on the fly while testing. Given that I only need around 200-250 hz from these, what are the possible drawbacks of using the smallest possible volume that will allow my chosen band to naturally roll off. There won't be a resonant peak in a sealed box as opposed to a vented will there?
I assume the lower roll off freq will just raise higher and higher in a sealed box until the cutoff is higher than my desired 200-250 but not have the "hump" I would encounter from too small of a vented enclosure?
This brings me to the last question. Heat buildup? Oh yeah also fiber damping? Thanks
Hi there,
Good route to go using sealed enclosures - so many fewer nasties and variables to contend with. My plans also. I guess you are looking at less than one litre per driver so a pretty weebox; same rules apply re: proportioning and damping as any sealed box. Q0.6-ish and away you go.
Good luck, Carl.
Good route to go using sealed enclosures - so many fewer nasties and variables to contend with. My plans also. I guess you are looking at less than one litre per driver so a pretty weebox; same rules apply re: proportioning and damping as any sealed box. Q0.6-ish and away you go.
Good luck, Carl.
i'd probably go with a sealed enclosure and rather small to bump at 200-250hz.
Also better power handling and EQ possibility.
Don't worry too much about voice coil heating, the limit will be mechanical here (xmax/xmech) unless you have very steep xover slope.
yup, still a very good choice.
I'm playing right now with the neo version (3fe22)
Tutto italiano! 3'' & 18'' OB dual-angle
and i think these are just fantastic drivers. And not just for the price, in absolute terms.
About the 6dB increase, you really don't need to worry because the Faital's will be much more than 6dB louder than your soundbar speakers.
The very worst case scenario for you is that the 3" drivers from your soundbar are unusually efficient at 87dB or so, and the Faital is 89dB.
But the soundbar drivers are rated 20w and that will be 20w MAX. By that same rating you can put 120 Watts into the 3fe25, so about 109dB per driver, while the soundbar drivers, even if they are unusually efficient, will produce maximum of 100dB per driver.
As an aside to the other poster, 6dB certainly is an appreciable increase in volume. It's a matter of available headroom and flexibility in the system, not perceived loudness in a controlled environment. The times when that 6dB will count are the times when you're 12dB quieter than you would like to be, then at least you can remedy that to being just 6dB quieter, which as you say is not such a big deal.
If you're indoors in a small room with a 12" sub and the room gain is driving the bass response through the roof (so to speak), and you've got a tightly packed crowd and loads of mid to high frequency chatter from the crowd, and bodies physically blocking the dispersion (with a low ceiling in a pub or basement ie) your column speakers that kept up just fine outdoors with a sparse and sedate crowd will suddenly be struggling. That's when that 6dB of headroom makes all the difference.
Heat build-up is a non-issue. Not sure about damping - it depends on so many factors and is a bit taste dependent, so it's hard to say, but it's really easy to do by trial and error. A bit of white polyester wadding (cotton-wool looking stuff) around the edges, maybe just on the back side, or just on the sides, or filling the whole box - try different configurations and materials to see what sounds best
The very worst case scenario for you is that the 3" drivers from your soundbar are unusually efficient at 87dB or so, and the Faital is 89dB.
But the soundbar drivers are rated 20w and that will be 20w MAX. By that same rating you can put 120 Watts into the 3fe25, so about 109dB per driver, while the soundbar drivers, even if they are unusually efficient, will produce maximum of 100dB per driver.
As an aside to the other poster, 6dB certainly is an appreciable increase in volume. It's a matter of available headroom and flexibility in the system, not perceived loudness in a controlled environment. The times when that 6dB will count are the times when you're 12dB quieter than you would like to be, then at least you can remedy that to being just 6dB quieter, which as you say is not such a big deal.
If you're indoors in a small room with a 12" sub and the room gain is driving the bass response through the roof (so to speak), and you've got a tightly packed crowd and loads of mid to high frequency chatter from the crowd, and bodies physically blocking the dispersion (with a low ceiling in a pub or basement ie) your column speakers that kept up just fine outdoors with a sparse and sedate crowd will suddenly be struggling. That's when that 6dB of headroom makes all the difference.
If you make the box way too small then there will be a broad peak of a few dB around the cutoff. You can sim it in WinISD to see if you like, but to be honest, the 3fe25 is so happy in such a small enclosure (0.5 litres per driver or even less) that you shouldn't have any trouble at all with portability.
Heat build-up is a non-issue. Not sure about damping - it depends on so many factors and is a bit taste dependent, so it's hard to say, but it's really easy to do by trial and error. A bit of white polyester wadding (cotton-wool looking stuff) around the edges, maybe just on the back side, or just on the sides, or filling the whole box - try different configurations and materials to see what sounds best
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Ok, so you are saying there won't (in a sealed box) be a nasty resonance hump at the low end like there woyl be in a "too small" tuned box, just a higher and higher natural flat roll off point? Thanks so much all.
I'm not even sure you could possibly (physically) make an enclosure small enough so you can hear anything odd, especially not that high xover point...
you can calculate it, try to get a sealed enclosure with F3 @ 200hz
Yeah, is was thinking a sealed back speaker would almost get to 200, so I think I am safe with my conduit couplers and caps☺
In terms of pure SPL performance, the bottleneck might very well be your 12's subs. In fact, that could be the case even with only a pair of 3fe25.
All depends on the subwoofer model, enclosure type, dedicated amp...
Like i said last page, the other possible bottleneck would be the low-mid (200-500hz) which are neither 12's sub nor 3fe25 forte.
But for most people/music type, that's not a major issue. Otherwise, BOSE wouldnt be in business anymore, haha!
All depends on the subwoofer model, enclosure type, dedicated amp...
Like i said last page, the other possible bottleneck would be the low-mid (200-500hz) which are neither 12's sub nor 3fe25 forte.
But for most people/music type, that's not a major issue. Otherwise, BOSE wouldnt be in business anymore, haha!
Actually it'll be a massive problem with the 3fe25 if the crossover is intended to be 200 or 250Hz.
If you put 80 Watts into each driver (~500w for the whole cabinet), then you reach 2mm of excursion at 325Hz, which has already exceeded the rated 1.83mm xmax.
You reach 2mm excursion at 225Hz with just 100 Watts of power input, that's about -7dB.
A 12" bass reflex enclosure should be reasonably comfortable playing up to 325Hz, but a 200-250Hz crossover just isn't practical with the 3fe25.
That's with a 5 litre enclosure, but increasing it to 15 litres doesn't make much difference, only about 0.15mm less excursion with the larger enclosure size.
WinISD suggests 120dB SPL with 500 Watts, 112.5dB with 100 Watts. Faital's specifications indicate it will be about 3dB louder but Faital are fairly creative with their specifications. It's probably somewhere between the two.
I'm not saying it won't work with 100 Watts and a lower crossover, and for most applications (and depending on the power of your sub) that should be fine. Depending on your amp and processing, you could adjust the crossover depending on what you need out of the system.
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