Hi
I can't help you with your choice of design, but I would like to suggest that you don't rule out using Parts Express or Madisound in the US as a source of drivers and components. While shipping is expensive, their prices are usually a lot cheaper than Australia - often less than half price. If you do the sums you might find that they are no more expensive or even cheaper than local suppliers, but offer a much larger range of products to choose from.
I'm an Australian living in Thailand. I recently bought a pair of tweeters and all the necessary components for two way Xovers from Parts Express and had them shipped to Thailand. The total cost was no more and probably less the the cost would have been in Thailand - That is if I could find what I wanted here! I also got caught for duty and tax because the limit here is Baht 1000 (AU$30). In Australia you have a limit of $1000 to play with.
Parts Express are a very reliable company, who are big on customer service. Orders usually arrive within a week of being placed.
Just food for thought.
I can't help you with your choice of design, but I would like to suggest that you don't rule out using Parts Express or Madisound in the US as a source of drivers and components. While shipping is expensive, their prices are usually a lot cheaper than Australia - often less than half price. If you do the sums you might find that they are no more expensive or even cheaper than local suppliers, but offer a much larger range of products to choose from.
I'm an Australian living in Thailand. I recently bought a pair of tweeters and all the necessary components for two way Xovers from Parts Express and had them shipped to Thailand. The total cost was no more and probably less the the cost would have been in Thailand - That is if I could find what I wanted here! I also got caught for duty and tax because the limit here is Baht 1000 (AU$30). In Australia you have a limit of $1000 to play with.
Parts Express are a very reliable company, who are big on customer service. Orders usually arrive within a week of being placed.
Just food for thought.
Maybe I'm missing something in terms of the Australian exchange rate, but just looking at Essential Audio and the Tarkus drivers, Shop by Brand & Vifa Tweeters, I get this:
Woofers - A$77.27 x 2 = $154.54
Mids - A$33.64 x 2 = $67.27
Tweeters - A$50.00 x 2 = $100.00 (Although granted these may be no longer available from this supplier)
Total = A$321.81
Now add in the xo's and you are still looking at a budget way below A$1000 aren't you??
For probably a step up in sound quality over the Tarkus, but still possibly within your budget, I would agree with Absconditus in post #9, re the SB line of drivers (the Scan Discovery line and the Peerless HDS lines are 2 other good choices). Here's a good looking project with the SB drivers (although I think you might be happier with 10" drivers on the bottom instead of the 8's):
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/212738-sb-acoustics-3-ways.html
Considering your criteria of 40Hz on the bottom end and your dearth of driver choices, I would also suggest that you consider a smaller speaker and sub(s) combination. That should open up a few more choices to you. Or maybe active is the way to go for you so you can more easily put together the combination the you want.
Woofers - A$77.27 x 2 = $154.54
Mids - A$33.64 x 2 = $67.27
Tweeters - A$50.00 x 2 = $100.00 (Although granted these may be no longer available from this supplier)
Total = A$321.81
Now add in the xo's and you are still looking at a budget way below A$1000 aren't you??
For probably a step up in sound quality over the Tarkus, but still possibly within your budget, I would agree with Absconditus in post #9, re the SB line of drivers (the Scan Discovery line and the Peerless HDS lines are 2 other good choices). Here's a good looking project with the SB drivers (although I think you might be happier with 10" drivers on the bottom instead of the 8's):
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/212738-sb-acoustics-3-ways.html
Considering your criteria of 40Hz on the bottom end and your dearth of driver choices, I would also suggest that you consider a smaller speaker and sub(s) combination. That should open up a few more choices to you. Or maybe active is the way to go for you so you can more easily put together the combination the you want.
I'm not sure I agree frangus
Prices are in line with our low volume, high minimum wage, high taxation and duty rate and the very high cost of doing business here. If they ever drop the duty free value and go back to taxing direct imports you could triple the cost of drivers from PE or Madisound by the time they got to your door.
The $1000- duty free is extremely generous by most countries standards
Prices are in line with our low volume, high minimum wage, high taxation and duty rate and the very high cost of doing business here. If they ever drop the duty free value and go back to taxing direct imports you could triple the cost of drivers from PE or Madisound by the time they got to your door.
The $1000- duty free is extremely generous by most countries standards
The Madisound Speaker Store
SB Acoustics SB29RDC-C000-4 Tweeter 1.2
How do you get shipping to Australia for 75 cents? I was going to post others but this proves the point well enough.
Abs
Great price for the home audio range, shame about eminence brand gear -Eminence Lab 12 subwoofer, I can get it for $307 delivered from the US, here it costs me $524 posted from Melbourne to Sydney.
Aranmar Acoustics aren't listed on their SEAS website.
I contacted SEAS two months ago and they said they are no longer sold in Oz, contact Madisound.
So I got 95 kg (12 drivers) of SEAS from them, and shipping was iirc about $A 440
There are some great suggestions here and I have subsequently found more options than I knew about previously. I'll have to dig deeper as time permits.
Moondog: I understand what you are saying about the cost of doing business here in Aus. The missus and I have our own cafe and it's a huge challenge to stay profitable, despite being praised for offering quality products and services. No doubt every business is faced with the same challenges.
jReave: Thanks for the link to the SB 3 way build. Looks good and should be achievable. With all of the information provided here I am in a better place to make a decision and the Tarkus is back on the radar for those prices, as you pointed out. If an SB build should yield better results I'll look closely at that too.
I have also been lead to the R455 kit, designed by Russell Storey and available from WES, though I'm not sure of shipping costs. They are also available from Peninsula Home Theatre, which is very close to me. More expensive, but shipping is negated. I'll be checking if there's a pair built for auditioning. Does anyone have any comments on this design?
Keep the info coming... I'm learning a great deal
Moondog: I understand what you are saying about the cost of doing business here in Aus. The missus and I have our own cafe and it's a huge challenge to stay profitable, despite being praised for offering quality products and services. No doubt every business is faced with the same challenges.
jReave: Thanks for the link to the SB 3 way build. Looks good and should be achievable. With all of the information provided here I am in a better place to make a decision and the Tarkus is back on the radar for those prices, as you pointed out. If an SB build should yield better results I'll look closely at that too.
I have also been lead to the R455 kit, designed by Russell Storey and available from WES, though I'm not sure of shipping costs. They are also available from Peninsula Home Theatre, which is very close to me. More expensive, but shipping is negated. I'll be checking if there's a pair built for auditioning. Does anyone have any comments on this design?
Keep the info coming... I'm learning a great deal
You may want to look at Troel's projects as many of the drivers are available in Australia.
DIY Loudspeakers
Here's a good simple design for those starting as parts are available in Australia.
Prima - Just DIY It !
The market in Australia is very small and there is very little support for local vendors as shown by the problems HAS Audio experienced. I used to be a speaker parts reseller and ran it as a non profit selling drivers at cost plus my costs of running the business (with no derived income and less than 1.5% profit over 3 years). It was set up so I could build my designs and experiment using parts at cost and while doing so, sold to others to make their projects cheaper. It did help drive some prices down in Australia but they went back up after I shut down.
It did give me some insight in the DIY speaker community. What I did learn is most DIYers are tight and want to screw vendors on price. The other thing is DIY speaker building is dying with numbers becoming much smaller over the last decade. This is making it hard for local vendors who make it a large part of their business and I wouldn't like to try and make a living out of it. There is fortunately still many that continue the hobby and keep it alive as it is very satisfying to go from concept to design to build to a final speaker.
Don't get into DIY speaker building if you want to save a few dollars as a good speaker still costs plenty. The advantage of DIY speakers is getting a better bang for buck if you choose the right design plus the road taken via the design it yourself route can be fun.... most of the time.
DIY Loudspeakers
Here's a good simple design for those starting as parts are available in Australia.
Prima - Just DIY It !
The market in Australia is very small and there is very little support for local vendors as shown by the problems HAS Audio experienced. I used to be a speaker parts reseller and ran it as a non profit selling drivers at cost plus my costs of running the business (with no derived income and less than 1.5% profit over 3 years). It was set up so I could build my designs and experiment using parts at cost and while doing so, sold to others to make their projects cheaper. It did help drive some prices down in Australia but they went back up after I shut down.
It did give me some insight in the DIY speaker community. What I did learn is most DIYers are tight and want to screw vendors on price. The other thing is DIY speaker building is dying with numbers becoming much smaller over the last decade. This is making it hard for local vendors who make it a large part of their business and I wouldn't like to try and make a living out of it. There is fortunately still many that continue the hobby and keep it alive as it is very satisfying to go from concept to design to build to a final speaker.
Don't get into DIY speaker building if you want to save a few dollars as a good speaker still costs plenty. The advantage of DIY speakers is getting a better bang for buck if you choose the right design plus the road taken via the design it yourself route can be fun.... most of the time.
Hello Tani. Welcome to DIY!
Since the concession is that SBAcoustics drivers are readily available and affordable in Australia, I'd offer this design from Curt C, a well respected designer here in the US and the co-creator of the Statements, one of the most popular DIY design groups
Speaker Design Works
I can speak for every driver in the design as excellent as I've used them, just not as Curt has.....but it meets all of your criteria except for constant directivity in the high frequencies. Given the upper MTM portion, it should still perform well in the vertical.
Hope this helps and enjoy your build, whatever you decide on.
Since the concession is that SBAcoustics drivers are readily available and affordable in Australia, I'd offer this design from Curt C, a well respected designer here in the US and the co-creator of the Statements, one of the most popular DIY design groups
Speaker Design Works
I can speak for every driver in the design as excellent as I've used them, just not as Curt has.....but it meets all of your criteria except for constant directivity in the high frequencies. Given the upper MTM portion, it should still perform well in the vertical.
Hope this helps and enjoy your build, whatever you decide on.
Looks like you got your parts sourcing sorted out now.
Now lets return to your design criteria.
In terms of LF response, getting an F3 down to 40Hz or below is most likely going to require an 8" driver or larger (there are some exceptions but they may not be easily available to you). So I'd be looking at 3-ways with larger woofer(s) or 2-ways with a sub(s). Your R455 choice should sound great but F3 will only be about 55Hz. Like wise with the Uluwatu, about 55Hz so both probably need subs for you to be satisfied.
Btw, I would group the Peerless SLS and SDS (Tarkus) and the cheaper SB13PFC drivers (Uluwatu) together in the same budget, high value sound quality category (although the implementation is going to make some differences). A step up in quality - so lower distortion, more detail, etc - is going to be the regular SB drivers and the Peerless HDS line.
Now in terms of higher sensitivity and SPL, you can go with a more pro type driver like the Eminences or you can start using multiple drivers in parallel and/or go with bigger woofers on the bottom end. So I would think you might prefer MTM or TMM configurations plus either the woofer(s) or sub(s). The tradeoff however is that impedance gets halved with multiple drivers (in parallel) so now you'll be looking at 4ohm nominal speakers instead of 8ohm. But since the amps you are looking at can handle this, I would drop this last item from your "must have" list.
So if you can afford them and the size fits into your room, Zaph's big SB speaker might be your ideal - Zaph|Audio - SB12.3 3-Way Tower - F3 below 30Hz with high sensitivity and SPL capabitity and excellent sound quality.
The 3-way SB I linked to previously will have F3~=40Hz if they are tuned right but a little lower sensitivity and SPL capability, I think.
The Tarkus will have an F3 in the 30's, probably about the same sensitivity and SPL's as the SB 3-way, but slightly poorer SQ. It will be probably less than half the price of the above however.
With the R455, I would go with at least 1 sub although 2 would probably sound better, so I would consider going sealed with them and therefore building a smaller cabinet that might need a stand instead. But as designed would be fine as well (although I might try stuffing the ports). Sound quality should be on par with the SB's but I think you'll be paying a little extra for the plans and the work they do to put the kit partially together for you. Maybe that's a plus for you as opposed to sourcing all the parts yourself and putting everything together from scratch.
Here's another Peerless HDS design from Troels you might look at, 2.5-way this time: PEERLESS-NOMEX-164
Now lets return to your design criteria.
In terms of LF response, getting an F3 down to 40Hz or below is most likely going to require an 8" driver or larger (there are some exceptions but they may not be easily available to you). So I'd be looking at 3-ways with larger woofer(s) or 2-ways with a sub(s). Your R455 choice should sound great but F3 will only be about 55Hz. Like wise with the Uluwatu, about 55Hz so both probably need subs for you to be satisfied.
Btw, I would group the Peerless SLS and SDS (Tarkus) and the cheaper SB13PFC drivers (Uluwatu) together in the same budget, high value sound quality category (although the implementation is going to make some differences). A step up in quality - so lower distortion, more detail, etc - is going to be the regular SB drivers and the Peerless HDS line.
Now in terms of higher sensitivity and SPL, you can go with a more pro type driver like the Eminences or you can start using multiple drivers in parallel and/or go with bigger woofers on the bottom end. So I would think you might prefer MTM or TMM configurations plus either the woofer(s) or sub(s). The tradeoff however is that impedance gets halved with multiple drivers (in parallel) so now you'll be looking at 4ohm nominal speakers instead of 8ohm. But since the amps you are looking at can handle this, I would drop this last item from your "must have" list.
So if you can afford them and the size fits into your room, Zaph's big SB speaker might be your ideal - Zaph|Audio - SB12.3 3-Way Tower - F3 below 30Hz with high sensitivity and SPL capabitity and excellent sound quality.
The 3-way SB I linked to previously will have F3~=40Hz if they are tuned right but a little lower sensitivity and SPL capability, I think.
The Tarkus will have an F3 in the 30's, probably about the same sensitivity and SPL's as the SB 3-way, but slightly poorer SQ. It will be probably less than half the price of the above however.
With the R455, I would go with at least 1 sub although 2 would probably sound better, so I would consider going sealed with them and therefore building a smaller cabinet that might need a stand instead. But as designed would be fine as well (although I might try stuffing the ports). Sound quality should be on par with the SB's but I think you'll be paying a little extra for the plans and the work they do to put the kit partially together for you. Maybe that's a plus for you as opposed to sourcing all the parts yourself and putting everything together from scratch.
Here's another Peerless HDS design from Troels you might look at, 2.5-way this time: PEERLESS-NOMEX-164
Good thing is that there are exceptions and businesses that keep going or are "high thinking". Basically you are working (or have employees) to pay states taxes, as VAT (IVA), Income Tax (individual), Tax on Corporate Income (IRC) and Business Activity Taxes, Tax on property; that you own yourself or bought and that you pay like if you were renting and governments are increasing every year as a bonus... it's the same in Europe. Call it New World Order (NWO), globalization - do you remember, customs duty tax or import duty would be free?! - "Silk Road" or whatever. You watch all the small coffee shops and restaurants going bankrupt. And don't say about starting other (hi-tech or commodities) small speakers business or kick-*** hi-fi systems because a high percentage of people is not looking at it when they have to look for a job and buy food for their entire family. Industry is very well centered in China (Asia Pacific), thanks god. You want to start a new business?! then apply for state tax exemptions and free land like they do in Amazon, big business (jobs) that we pay for. What you pay in taxes is enough to buy or build a new pair of speakers every year, so wonder... The good thing (different) now is that you pay banks to land you the same paper money+interest (they get from us) to eat and to buy cheaper yellow drivers.
Life is always simple... So let's think positive and do positive.
A Green Cafe link
I was thinking about the same when I saw the R455 project. I guess I can model that driver fast (6.5'' Peerless 850467)... and F3 very much "high" as you said (F3=48Hz) and 30Hz@80dB's, so I was thinking about another thread below just in case a 2x 12" W-sub is needed. Personally I think the frequency range would be in the threshold of what a small cafe will need "jazzy ambiance" (R455kit) and the footprint would increase with an extra sub (big or small) for nothing that a stereo pair will not deliver.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/257203-bass-support-below-150-hz.html#post3950881
In reality with an extreme 25L tuned that 6.5" can go in the 30's (Hz) what is demonstrative of the possibilities when you know what you are doing. Like a nice roll off from a tuned 15L@44 Hz enclosure with a F3=43Hz, that is not bad at all.
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