Or that not everyone likes big speakers, or that they played the system too loud. Or someone has a fetish for clock radios. Who knows? Ever been to an audio show? There are almost as many opinions as there are speakers. I've seen scathing reviews of stuff I heard and liked, and positive, glowing reviews of things I thought sounded like skunk farts.
Only if you've heard it yourself, can you really judge. And even then, plenty of folks will disagree with you. That's audio.
Just as their are folks prejudiced toward large speakers, or old speakers, their are those prejudiced against them. Some just have to look at them not to like them.
As for me, I like the W.E. stuff fullrange, but it's much better in a multi-way system designed to use its strengths and avoid its weaknesses. I think that true of all drivers, no matter the vintage.
Ain't that the tooth! Many a Concert Grand P(i)ano has its own particular strengths and weaknesses specific to setting, tuning, hall size-acoustics, presentation etc.....just as many a mass-produced upright properly handled and presented can do quite fine...thank-you very much. Much of it also has to do with who is tickling the ivories.
Been to a few audio shows where normally fine sounding sounding loudspeakers were completely handcuffed by the limitations of the rooms they were presented.
All the published measurements and data said they should perform superbly, all the subjective and psychoacoustic determinants (appearance, cabinet work, driver complement, contruction etc,) also pointed to that result, but they simply didn't or couldn't deliver in that particular setting.
I know of many who sing the praises of the BBC LS3/5a monitors (for example) as the epitome of reproduction but they need very precise placement and room dimensions..I'm willing to appreciate the things they do well under the right conditions and note their limitations.
Preconceived notions of what will or won't sound good are ultimately limiting to both exploration and revelation (favourable or unfavourable)...
Yes seeing some measurements of the WE stuff would be nice but then I'm not the one that has the drivers, that is why I was asking those that do?
I had already stated that I wasn't getting into a Pi***** match about subjective vs objective and was willing to leave it at that. I am sure you read that yes? Then YOU just have to take one more pot shot at me with your cute little "horn envy" quote. I just responded in turn so deal with it.
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Oh I have plenty of measuring gear, Arta, Holmimpulse and Liberty Audio Suite. Sorry but I'm not in the mood to satisfy your silly demands. I do know that you have a $13,000 piece of measurement gear because you stated as such before. Are you using it for it's intended purpose or is it just gathering dust and used as a door stop?
Your last sentence is quite funny
. Keep up the humorous posts.
Quite agree. I learned that fast going around from room to room at audio shows. It's hard to judge by looks or even technology. That was fully driven home judging a speaker contest. Yes, some speakers do sound just like they look, but many do not.
ahh, this is morrison here.
i do have to add that for everyone who ran from the room, there were 20 or more who stayed, came back and reveled in the sound... many of them the spouses of and non audiophile locals who come to the show every year for the spectacle. of course they might be "unqualified" as such to pass judgement on such serious business, as imperfect as it may be. vintage, schmintage. i didn't see ANY other room in the show with 75+ people in it from morning to closing time. no, you can't please everyone. but most people will do. even the KEF people came and hung out till closing time headbanging. nothing to win or lose... just fun. and that's why i got into this ridiculous occupation in the first place.
i myself have never been interested in vintage gear. i am known for gutting anything. i have "re-purposed" audio research, altec and macintosh amps just for the chassis... chopped and stripped WE and altec gear for the transformers for years. there is nothing holy or magical about any of it for me. western speaker drivers and yes, horns are simply better performing. especially the wide range stuff. because they allow one to get from 80 to 6K without a crossover. yes, that is an important advantage because it means that the upper bass and the low treble sound as if they come from one speaker, and not 3 (or more).
and why anyone would put a passive crossover in the midrange is beyond me, measurements or not. and yet most 3 way speaker designs do that, as well as many 2 way designs. and all with different drivers and technologies... you want to ask me how i came to that conclusion. i heard it. over and over again. i was in the ADAM room in munich... so it still happens. i'm not sure how to "measure" that with clio... it's not just a matter of horizontal and vertical dispersion through the crossover... the drivers sound different. i find it distracting and not at all "like real". it is not only a matter of tweeters drawing attention to themselves but woofer boing and whoosh. mainly, most modern hifi has crappy midrange, at the expense of bass and treble. the GIP stuff suffered from this in our room, and it was still interesting.
that continuity is why electrostats appeal to me too! as well as true ribbons. but the western horns are 60% and above efficient... compared with 0.5% of a direct radiating cone driver or electrostatic panel. that's with a with a WE555 full range driver. it's closer to 70% with the WE594 (the grandmother of all modern compression drivers, which are mainly cheaper and easier to manufacture). the moving mass of the 555 is 2g. 116 dB per watt at 1 meter into free air (this average varies from driver to driver depending on the purity of the iron polepiece)... that efficiency goes up when installed in the horn. all these things have been measured and can be found in many places online. the french and japanese cult sites have some modern measurements of non-optimal drivers to go along with in spec examples. the lansing heritage site has industry specs and have contemporary (from the day) measurements. i have measured some western and some klangfilm stuff with clio. i have only been impressed. you want to say something about a plastic cone with a rubber surround and a ferrite magnet... that it does something interesting other than work cheap?
i know that from the early 70's, along with the rise in prominence of the mini monitor, dynamics disappeared from the hifi vocabulary. oh yes, that word is still thrown around but it's a lie of advertising. it gave convenience and economy in return, and allowed many speakers in every home. i had met-7s and spicas and LS3-5As... they compress everything. nice, slow, pleasant little music. as does everything they spawned. proacs, anyone? this fact has nothing to do with amp power. 8" moving coil speaker drivers (and anything smaller) are incapable of anything near actual live dynamic levels (even in the midrange) and would be destroyed long before they got within 40dB of "real" (1000's of watts). i suppose if you wore them like headphones...? the risetime would still be slow and the inertia noticeable. the mass of the piston and the motor, as well as the efficiency prevent the possibility. that is basic physics for you.
i suggest that musical dynamics are exciting and evoke emotion. i say this because lack of dynamics creates distance... it is clearly not "like real" and therefore obviously reproduced.
i fell under the spell of horns mainly for the return of real dynamics. yes there are droves of crappy horns. most altec sucks. some is okay... but the stuff that doesn't suck, really doesn't suck. and it was engineered as cost no object, results driven effort. it wasn't for sale, although you could rent it, because no one could afford it. that is, western stuff.
and without hearing it, some of you flip out the mere mention of it.
i have more respect (not much more) for the guys that fled. they have a different taste. but, it should be clear that i do as well. most people stayed in the silba room for a long time. and came back later.
i think the reproduced sound of the western system in munich, while not perfect (what is?) offers a more real presentation and not a hifi presentation. i am not a fan of hifi. it's a four letter word. i actually like my music alive. hifi has become dull, tiny and life-less. it's more about convenience, prestige and control, and not about the things that music attracts, which are for me all emotional. i think the reason that there were so many people in the silbatone room all the time was for that reason. and yes, the unusual appearance of the gear is part of it. but when sabbath does "war babies" or david oistrakh plays bruch, it sounds like they are in the room doing it. same size, same level. and that is impossible to ignore. more nuance and actual bombast. emotional passages are MORE emotional. and the sound comes from a speaker that sounds like one speaker. one with the bass and treble integrated. those things are often wiped away in a system with 40dB less dynamic range and drivers crossed over right in the range where the ear is most sensitive (i.e any 8" or smaller direct radiator speaker). which, while a rough estimate, is NO exaggeration. the cessaro and avant garde rooms could blame their electronics i suppose? i don't know what their problem was or if there even was one.
i believe the conflict comes up only because the apparent success of the "old way" to achieve results implies that if one of these approaches is right, the other must be wrong. i can see why that might upset someone. but who cares? what's at stake? why get your bun in a nut when you can just go home to your own system and find comfort? any hifi store you go to is chock full of the stuff you love! got deep pockets? halcro and wilson, yippee ki yi yay!
the western electric 15A is different from "modern" speakers in ways other than just dynamic performance and continuity... but those two advantages alone are significant enough to offer a counterpoint to the oft repeated status quo. things have changed since the beginning... not only for the better. point taken.
i designed all the electronics for silba other than the CD player (goldmund) and i used advanced test equipment to do it. everything was measured over and over during the development and during the optimization process. this work was verified with ears (not mine). not the other way around. which is how it should be done in my opinion. but clearly there is no reason to take me seriously! and you can make your own stuff however you like! but if you came to munich, then you know how we ride. talk is cheap. we showed up.
by the way, i am the one that uses the audio precision. but we (silba) use it mainly to deal with the japanese hifi press... which is in some ways more critical than anything you find in europe and especially the us, which is primitive in comparison. isn't it weird how so many japanese and korean audiophiles take western speaker stuff for granted... that it is superlative. it's just that very few people will ever get to own it. and they have most of it... have had it for years. they don't freak out over it and still listen to sonus faber, for example. which is much much cheaper and easier to own.
in conclusion, i have to say that i don't understand the agita associated with talking about 84 year old speakers. it is a very interesting opportunity to reference "progress" in the audio arts and sciences. i think it is safe to say that there has not been as much of it as the advertising (or the measuring) suggests. surprised?
jc morrison
i do have to add that for everyone who ran from the room, there were 20 or more who stayed, came back and reveled in the sound... many of them the spouses of and non audiophile locals who come to the show every year for the spectacle. of course they might be "unqualified" as such to pass judgement on such serious business, as imperfect as it may be. vintage, schmintage. i didn't see ANY other room in the show with 75+ people in it from morning to closing time. no, you can't please everyone. but most people will do. even the KEF people came and hung out till closing time headbanging. nothing to win or lose... just fun. and that's why i got into this ridiculous occupation in the first place.
i myself have never been interested in vintage gear. i am known for gutting anything. i have "re-purposed" audio research, altec and macintosh amps just for the chassis... chopped and stripped WE and altec gear for the transformers for years. there is nothing holy or magical about any of it for me. western speaker drivers and yes, horns are simply better performing. especially the wide range stuff. because they allow one to get from 80 to 6K without a crossover. yes, that is an important advantage because it means that the upper bass and the low treble sound as if they come from one speaker, and not 3 (or more).
and why anyone would put a passive crossover in the midrange is beyond me, measurements or not. and yet most 3 way speaker designs do that, as well as many 2 way designs. and all with different drivers and technologies... you want to ask me how i came to that conclusion. i heard it. over and over again. i was in the ADAM room in munich... so it still happens. i'm not sure how to "measure" that with clio... it's not just a matter of horizontal and vertical dispersion through the crossover... the drivers sound different. i find it distracting and not at all "like real". it is not only a matter of tweeters drawing attention to themselves but woofer boing and whoosh. mainly, most modern hifi has crappy midrange, at the expense of bass and treble. the GIP stuff suffered from this in our room, and it was still interesting.
that continuity is why electrostats appeal to me too! as well as true ribbons. but the western horns are 60% and above efficient... compared with 0.5% of a direct radiating cone driver or electrostatic panel. that's with a with a WE555 full range driver. it's closer to 70% with the WE594 (the grandmother of all modern compression drivers, which are mainly cheaper and easier to manufacture). the moving mass of the 555 is 2g. 116 dB per watt at 1 meter into free air (this average varies from driver to driver depending on the purity of the iron polepiece)... that efficiency goes up when installed in the horn. all these things have been measured and can be found in many places online. the french and japanese cult sites have some modern measurements of non-optimal drivers to go along with in spec examples. the lansing heritage site has industry specs and have contemporary (from the day) measurements. i have measured some western and some klangfilm stuff with clio. i have only been impressed. you want to say something about a plastic cone with a rubber surround and a ferrite magnet... that it does something interesting other than work cheap?
i know that from the early 70's, along with the rise in prominence of the mini monitor, dynamics disappeared from the hifi vocabulary. oh yes, that word is still thrown around but it's a lie of advertising. it gave convenience and economy in return, and allowed many speakers in every home. i had met-7s and spicas and LS3-5As... they compress everything. nice, slow, pleasant little music. as does everything they spawned. proacs, anyone? this fact has nothing to do with amp power. 8" moving coil speaker drivers (and anything smaller) are incapable of anything near actual live dynamic levels (even in the midrange) and would be destroyed long before they got within 40dB of "real" (1000's of watts). i suppose if you wore them like headphones...? the risetime would still be slow and the inertia noticeable. the mass of the piston and the motor, as well as the efficiency prevent the possibility. that is basic physics for you.
i suggest that musical dynamics are exciting and evoke emotion. i say this because lack of dynamics creates distance... it is clearly not "like real" and therefore obviously reproduced.
i fell under the spell of horns mainly for the return of real dynamics. yes there are droves of crappy horns. most altec sucks. some is okay... but the stuff that doesn't suck, really doesn't suck. and it was engineered as cost no object, results driven effort. it wasn't for sale, although you could rent it, because no one could afford it. that is, western stuff.
and without hearing it, some of you flip out the mere mention of it.
i have more respect (not much more) for the guys that fled. they have a different taste. but, it should be clear that i do as well. most people stayed in the silba room for a long time. and came back later.
i think the reproduced sound of the western system in munich, while not perfect (what is?) offers a more real presentation and not a hifi presentation. i am not a fan of hifi. it's a four letter word. i actually like my music alive. hifi has become dull, tiny and life-less. it's more about convenience, prestige and control, and not about the things that music attracts, which are for me all emotional. i think the reason that there were so many people in the silbatone room all the time was for that reason. and yes, the unusual appearance of the gear is part of it. but when sabbath does "war babies" or david oistrakh plays bruch, it sounds like they are in the room doing it. same size, same level. and that is impossible to ignore. more nuance and actual bombast. emotional passages are MORE emotional. and the sound comes from a speaker that sounds like one speaker. one with the bass and treble integrated. those things are often wiped away in a system with 40dB less dynamic range and drivers crossed over right in the range where the ear is most sensitive (i.e any 8" or smaller direct radiator speaker). which, while a rough estimate, is NO exaggeration. the cessaro and avant garde rooms could blame their electronics i suppose? i don't know what their problem was or if there even was one.
i believe the conflict comes up only because the apparent success of the "old way" to achieve results implies that if one of these approaches is right, the other must be wrong. i can see why that might upset someone. but who cares? what's at stake? why get your bun in a nut when you can just go home to your own system and find comfort? any hifi store you go to is chock full of the stuff you love! got deep pockets? halcro and wilson, yippee ki yi yay!
the western electric 15A is different from "modern" speakers in ways other than just dynamic performance and continuity... but those two advantages alone are significant enough to offer a counterpoint to the oft repeated status quo. things have changed since the beginning... not only for the better. point taken.
i designed all the electronics for silba other than the CD player (goldmund) and i used advanced test equipment to do it. everything was measured over and over during the development and during the optimization process. this work was verified with ears (not mine). not the other way around. which is how it should be done in my opinion. but clearly there is no reason to take me seriously! and you can make your own stuff however you like! but if you came to munich, then you know how we ride. talk is cheap. we showed up.
by the way, i am the one that uses the audio precision. but we (silba) use it mainly to deal with the japanese hifi press... which is in some ways more critical than anything you find in europe and especially the us, which is primitive in comparison. isn't it weird how so many japanese and korean audiophiles take western speaker stuff for granted... that it is superlative. it's just that very few people will ever get to own it. and they have most of it... have had it for years. they don't freak out over it and still listen to sonus faber, for example. which is much much cheaper and easier to own.
in conclusion, i have to say that i don't understand the agita associated with talking about 84 year old speakers. it is a very interesting opportunity to reference "progress" in the audio arts and sciences. i think it is safe to say that there has not been as much of it as the advertising (or the measuring) suggests. surprised?
jc morrison
Can we engrave this somewhere? I mean, as least for the sake of this thread?
Just so those who aren't getting upset about it can continue on sharing their experience and ideas without the Measurement Stasi showing up every two minutes? Heaven knows, we could possibly learn something.
Thanks Mr. Morrison. I'm glad someone said it, and I'm glad it was you.
Where's the advantage ...
1. There are Amplifers available in 2012 from 1 watt to 3kw so no advantage there.
I disagree. Study amplifiers more.
I disagree
This depends on actual IM and THD, nothing else.
Find me the best direct radiators, measure them at say 100dB SPL (how many watts is that?), and compare that to the 555 at 100dB SPL, get back to me on it?
Probably you can sub in any truly high quality compression driver vs. any truly high quality direct radiators (a few horse races come to my mind). Let me know some specifics (drivers/speakers) that you might suggest?
Once you put the xover at 500 hz, you can not put humpty dumpty back together no matter what you do. Possibly Danley's solution *might* be an exception - that has yet to be seen.
3 . Running multiple drive units in one horn doesn't one driver make ....
We are running multiple horns, not multiple drive units.
You can debate that idea with Tom Danley.
I predict you will lose the debate.
Correct. This is the number one problem with multiple horns.
It can be overcome, if you wish to live with a digital solution.
Or with Tom Danley's solution.
But the same problem exists with any 2-way or three way system, or any multi-way system. The question is extent and how much that compromise matters compared to other compromises.
Frankly the speaker might be as good as Joe says it is and it's secret , may have nothing to do with its sound, love the video .....
_-_-bear
@bear ,
Maybe it is you who need to study up on amplifiers if you disagree there are amplifers available today from 1 watt to 3 KW and feel free to throw in as many strawmen necessary to put forth your Position , you can start with the 100db + required by those inside their domestic listening rooms and the number of 6 ft+ tall wall of speakers not capable of doing this ..
There are many poorly designed speakers being sold today , this doesn't make your assumptions as to why correct...
Maybe it is you who need to study up on amplifiers if you disagree there are amplifers available today from 1 watt to 3 KW and feel free to throw in as many strawmen necessary to put forth your Position , you can start with the 100db + required by those inside their domestic listening rooms and the number of 6 ft+ tall wall of speakers not capable of doing this ..
There are many poorly designed speakers being sold today , this doesn't make your assumptions as to why correct...
Hello ,
No agita here and one does not need to fear xovers Mr Morrison , nor do we need one driver to cover 80- 5k to sound like one drive unit and do agree there are many speakers being peddled around for decades that are just plain horrible, but not for the reasons sighted above .
Some of us may want things like "accuracy" to go along with life like , this includes a lack of smearing ,Proper tonal balance with a realism of Space and size , This was actually the response leveled at the setup and was not addressed in your response ..
Does a standup sound like a cello For eg , can we tell a Yamaha from a Steinway , Brubeck or Peterson , Ray Brown or Yo Yo Ma , small but significant details...
PS: I can believe KEF personnel hung out in your room ....
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Just a little guy from The primitive US .... and I would never think of asking you or anyone to give up anything , I'm merely stating what is being done by Silbatone can be achieved with 6ft+ tall wall of sound direct radiators ..
Anyway i do agree with you about how bad speakers are currently being sold in the market place, Cheers .....
and I would never think of asking you or anyone to give up anything , I'm merely stating what is being done by Silbatone can be achieved with 6ft+ tall wall of sound direct radiators ..Anyway i do agree with you about how bad speakers are currently being sold in the market place, Cheers .....
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Hello JC
nice to meet you here.
Well spoken and the same discussions will come up if we use (vintage) coaxial drivers or fullrange drivers. Same rules for vintage electronics etc.
@ all:
And yes, we have several camps with different listening / feeling when listening to music. Let's respect each other and keep inspired by the other opinions.
Keep on running ...
nice to meet you here.
Well spoken and the same discussions will come up if we use (vintage) coaxial drivers or fullrange drivers. Same rules for vintage electronics etc.
@ all:
And yes, we have several camps with different listening / feeling when listening to music. Let's respect each other and keep inspired by the other opinions.
Keep on running ...
Geez, of course there are amplifiers with that power range. Obviously not the point!
You seem to think, based on the gist of your statement that all amplifiers are equal, below some distortion threshold, and all you need to do is to pick one with the proper power for your speakers? Is this what you are saying?
And, please cite some speakers and drivers that you think will have suitably low distortion figures compared to that old WE rig at 100dB SPL?
Thanks.
_-_-bear
just give me a set of those Fugly! WE horns+drivers , and I'll make all measurements
I'm certain that Aleksandar RAAL will give me a hand ........ in other words - make all measurements for me
anyway - just give them to me ......... and both Alex RAAL and moi will leave all measurement equipment untouched
I'm certain that Aleksandar RAAL will give me a hand ........ in other words - make all measurements for me
anyway - just give them to me ......... and both Alex RAAL and moi will leave all measurement equipment untouched
Besided their designer's ability to walk on water, why do we assume that the Western Elictric drivers have unusually low distortion?
I was sweeping some JBL theater units the other day just to confirm they were good before shipment. The 15 and 18 inch woofers (bass cabinets and subs) sounded clean while shaking the rafters and taking the full couple of hundred watts of the test amp. The 4" diaphragm driver on the 2360 90 x 40 horn was very loud at 6volts input, but didn't exactly sound clean, certainly not below 1000 Hz where the harmonic distortion was very obvious. Before everyone jumps in and says "that was JBL, not WE", you need to realize that compression driver/horn combos just don't sound all that clean. The throat distortion is high and the diaphragms aren't capible of much excursion at all. High efficiency is nice, if not essential for PA applications, but for more more modest domestic use you can get a lot lower distortion with direct radiators. W.E. can't pull off any miracles that later designers with computer aided design and modern materials still can't achieve.
The notion of a full range audio system made from one large horn and compression driver was quickly abandoned after the 1920's. You can barely cover the voice range but that would never be enough for modern needs. Coiled horns will always have limited upper response, and non CD designs will have poor frequency response, both on and off axis.
Its fine to admire these units for their performance relative to their design era, but anyone who thinks they surpass todays units is fooling themselves.
David S.
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