Go Back   Home > Forums > Loudspeakers > Multi-Way

Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 21st July 2011, 10:31 PM   #11
DrDyna is offline DrDyna  United States
diyAudio Member
 
DrDyna's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Blog Entries: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by 18Hurts View Post
There is something about a pair of speakers running 24 woofers and 96 tweeters that entertains people.
No joke, I've noticed that the most common comment when others are listening to my system is (after seeing 2 or 3 pairs of spare speakers sitting around) why don't you hook them all up?

Maybe I should work on one of these line arrays that goes floor to ceiling, with some nice 7 foot subs to go with them.
  Reply With Quote
Old 22nd July 2011, 12:42 AM   #12
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Mmm.. I've gotten that question before.

I think the thought of a line array (the idea of working each individual driver very little) is getting ahead of my budget and ability. I'd bet I could get the impressive dynamics that I'm expecting pretty easily, but doing so without huge peaks/valleys is tougher.

Something I don't understand as much as I'd like is driver placement on baffle. Lets take a simple 2-way. how far apart? centered drivers? I've been letting Jeff Bagby's BSD designer pretty much determine designs so far, but I'd like to know a bit better how woofer-tweeter interaction works.

Greg
  Reply With Quote
Old 22nd July 2011, 12:44 AM   #13
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
And by-the-by, I ran those Aura drivers through J.Bagby's X-over designer and they're pretty tough to work with. I almost want to run them with a dome mid and small dome tweeter cause the high end is tough. Plus, no bass with a 5.25"...
  Reply With Quote
Old 22nd July 2011, 09:55 AM   #14
bjorno is offline bjorno  Sweden
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Jacobsmountain
Send a message via MSN to bjorno
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmcalabria View Post
And by-the-by, I ran those Aura drivers through J.Bagby's X-over designer and they're pretty tough to work with..... cause the high end is tough. Plus, no bass with a 5.25"...
Hi,

Agree...My of hints:

b
Attached Images
File Type: jpg stupid-cheap-line-array.JPG (575.8 KB, 1852 views)
  Reply With Quote
Old 22nd July 2011, 02:04 PM   #15
18Hurts is offline 18Hurts  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
The war over vertical line arrays continues

Did a lot of reading on those oddities of the audio world, the beaming/lobing issues in particular. Read about the corner loaded line arrays with all 3.5" drivers running full range and they work well with EQ. I'm sure the microphone shows a classic example of comb filtering on that puppy!

Listened to Keele's presentation on curved line arrays, researched PA line arrays VS curved arrays along with the hows and whys. Read the full report on the "Velvet Hammers" with 5" Foster woofers and the Apex Jr. tweeters crossed at 5 KHz.

In theory, all line arrays--the ones running all full ranges in particular--should sound like scrambled hash. The question I have is they don't... a microphone and a brain with ears attached process differently so I'm making sawdust to check it out.

I will NEVER build another 2-way vertical line array again! As my labor hits the triple digits in hours--I fully understand why people don't build the beasts. It has been entertaining to hear just the 5" woofers running full range, they don't sound right unless you're 2 meters back so they can "mix"? Boosted the bass +6 dB and clipped my 100 watt amp while hammering in remixed Onyx (rap/metal) and shook the floor. None of the woofers got close to their 3mm Xmax even with a clipping amp hitting the little 5 inchers with 30Hz.

These are not speakers to sit back and sip cognac out of a brandy snifter by any means. Plug a guitar into the things, set the amp to +11 and hammer the strings with a wood saw. The 96 tweeters will get hammered with clipping but 90% of the power going to them is burned off with power resistors (attached to an aluminum plate to sink heat out the back) Normal party speakers/guitar speaker/PA use is crank it till it clips then back it off a notch. Eventually it will be teamed with a tapped horn to take over the deep stuff but a dozen or two 5 inchers can take quite a beating without distorting.

Sometimes you just have to raise the pirate flag, make a ton of sawdust and build the things. Tweak it until it sounds the best and pray the metal roof don't rattle, the cement floor does not mess up the sound too bad and push the lawnmower into the nulls to improve the sound. As long as I can get decent sound in a garage, they are loud, durable and protected from flying parts, lubricants and beer foam--I'll be happy. My brandy snifter speakers are in the house--the party speaker vertical arrays complete with handles, grills, bumpers and genuine house paint "finish" sit in the garage.

Speaker beaming can be cured by a liberal application of Jim Beam
  Reply With Quote
Old 22nd July 2011, 04:44 PM   #16
sangram is offline sangram  India
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: India
I can testify to needing lots of EQ and hearing lots of comb filtering.

About four meters away they sound great. About fifty meters away, someone is calling the cops

Click the image to open in full size.
Click the image to open in full size.

The box holds two 12" woofers resurrected from my junk box, in isobaric loading. Power is from a STK4191 - about 40 watts/channel and two channels. One runs the half line and the other the two woofers, line level crossover and lots of EQ to get the response in shape. Cheap and nasty, lots of fun but not very faithful so I called her 'Big Bertha'.
  Reply With Quote
Old 22nd July 2011, 05:04 PM   #17
18Hurts is offline 18Hurts  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by sangram View Post
I can testify to needing lots of EQ and hearing lots of comb filtering.

About four meters away they sound great. About fifty meters away, someone is calling the cops
I was thinking about full range arrays but decided on two-way to lessen the amount of EQ and comb filtering.

Reading about different types and found that; generally speaking--as long as the line is 70% or higher of the floor-to-ceiling height, it will reflect correctly. I'm going to test the effect in my house since they are at 77% of the height. Stacked on top of each other in mono, they will just fit in the garage so I can test the "infinite line" concept.

As far as your stack of full-ranges go, how does the EQ curve look? Is it a complete mess that requires 1/3rd octave and parametric bands to clean up or just a general boost for the treble and bass with a slight cut at the midrange?

I'm just trying to get an idea of what I'll need to get them decent sounding while I wait for my crossover parts.
  Reply With Quote
Old 22nd July 2011, 05:52 PM   #18
diyAudio Member
 
speaker dave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: The Mountain, Framingham
I designed a number of the line array systems at McIntosh a few years ago (XRT24, XRT26) Also developed the first no-lobe 3 element THX arrays. Also presented an AES paper on array modeling.

People usually ask about the audibility of lobing with the multi-element arrays. I found you can hear it, specifically on pink noise and if you are fairly close to the system. It is a bit of a swish-swish-swish as you do deep knee bends in front of the system. As you get a little farther back and as you change from pink noise to music it becomes much less audible. You might notice it in the top octave of music that has a fairly continuous treble part (because your going back towards pink noise in effect). But I never found it to be distracting, or even audible for a stationary listener on music.

Some comments: If you are doing a long array, nearly floor to ceiling, then run all your units full strength in a series parallel arrangement. For mid length arrays, say 2 to 4 feet long, I would strongly recommend a level tapering scheme along the array's length, otherwise the frequency response will vary strongly with listener height. If you go shorter, then a progressive crossover scheme (tweeter in the center and additional elements coming into play as you go down the frequency range) is the way to go. In the end you want the array's effective length to grow in proportion to wavelength.

Regards,
David S.
  Reply With Quote
Old 22nd July 2011, 06:04 PM   #19
BarryV is offline BarryV  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Willamette Valley, OR
I wish I had a neighbor like you. Dang!


Quote:
Originally Posted by 18Hurts View Post
The war over vertical line arrays continues

Did a lot of reading on those oddities of the audio world, the beaming/lobing issues in particular. Read about the corner loaded line arrays with all 3.5" drivers running full range and they work well with EQ. I'm sure the microphone shows a classic example of comb filtering on that puppy!

Listened to Keele's presentation on curved line arrays, researched PA line arrays VS curved arrays along with the hows and whys. Read the full report on the "Velvet Hammers" with 5" Foster woofers and the Apex Jr. tweeters crossed at 5 KHz.

In theory, all line arrays--the ones running all full ranges in particular--should sound like scrambled hash. The question I have is they don't... a microphone and a brain with ears attached process differently so I'm making sawdust to check it out.

I will NEVER build another 2-way vertical line array again! As my labor hits the triple digits in hours--I fully understand why people don't build the beasts. It has been entertaining to hear just the 5" woofers running full range, they don't sound right unless you're 2 meters back so they can "mix"? Boosted the bass +6 dB and clipped my 100 watt amp while hammering in remixed Onyx (rap/metal) and shook the floor. None of the woofers got close to their 3mm Xmax even with a clipping amp hitting the little 5 inchers with 30Hz.

These are not speakers to sit back and sip cognac out of a brandy snifter by any means. Plug a guitar into the things, set the amp to +11 and hammer the strings with a wood saw. The 96 tweeters will get hammered with clipping but 90% of the power going to them is burned off with power resistors (attached to an aluminum plate to sink heat out the back) Normal party speakers/guitar speaker/PA use is crank it till it clips then back it off a notch. Eventually it will be teamed with a tapped horn to take over the deep stuff but a dozen or two 5 inchers can take quite a beating without distorting.

Sometimes you just have to raise the pirate flag, make a ton of sawdust and build the things. Tweak it until it sounds the best and pray the metal roof don't rattle, the cement floor does not mess up the sound too bad and push the lawnmower into the nulls to improve the sound. As long as I can get decent sound in a garage, they are loud, durable and protected from flying parts, lubricants and beer foam--I'll be happy. My brandy snifter speakers are in the house--the party speaker vertical arrays complete with handles, grills, bumpers and genuine house paint "finish" sit in the garage.

Speaker beaming can be cured by a liberal application of Jim Beam
  Reply With Quote
Old 22nd July 2011, 06:34 PM   #20
diyAudio Member
 
AdamThorne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Quote:
Originally Posted by speaker dave View Post
I designed a number of the line array systems at McIntosh a few years ago (XRT24, XRT26) Also developed the first no-lobe 3 element THX arrays. Also presented an AES paper on array modeling.

...

Regards,
David S.
Credibility! Thanks for posting.
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Cheap, Fun line array candidate? pjanda1 Full Range 2 18th November 2009 04:22 AM
advice needed for cheap line array tweeter zobsky Multi-Way 23 15th September 2009 04:24 PM
Can you say the new cheap line array boner is here? Feandil Multi-Way 0 21st April 2005 10:28 PM
Playing with cheap line array is fun! JinMTVT Multi-Way 18 25th September 2004 08:27 PM
Open Baffle Line Array - using cheap drivers giambi77 Multi-Way 4 26th January 2004 09:29 PM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 07:11 AM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2