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Old 30th August 2012, 12:57 AM   #101
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Thanks for sharing that SS7, do you have any pictures of the back of the wave guides by any chance?

I have a pair of 140-15D and would like to see how you mounted your Lazy 9s. Also I dont see a wave guide offered for the Lazy 9, did you modify the 140-15D one?
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Old 30th August 2012, 04:22 PM   #102
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Yes the waveguides are I understand for the smaller Raal 140-15Ds.
I mounted then with a strip of foam rubber on the faces of the Raals and then a clamp system around the back of the tweeter mounting frame. This was 2 long threaded bars with a padded hook to grab the flange on the waveguide. You would simply bolt them on to the 140s with say M3s, as the holes would line up 
For me they were just a test rig.
The Lazys actually stick out about 35mm each end beyond the slot. So not ideal they were just a loan / test. The slight overlap beyond the mounting flange is damped / covered off.
In spite of this, measured at 1m they still improve the efficiency as can be seen.

The shape / flare of the waveguide is quite wide for there to be much horn load effect, I would have thought but the measurements show what they show.

I have done some measurements at my ear point, and the efficient improvement with the room playing in virtually nothing! I must post those up.
However I do still perceived I can hear a difference to the sound they produce - it is a small improvement.
I need to do more on off listening to confirm this fully to myself / co-listener.

A full size Raal Lazy Ribbon sized waveguide would be pretty big to fit into my stack and the manufacturer will only make a batch of 10 It would be hard to find 10 Lazy Ribbon owners, so that is not on the cards
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Old 31st August 2012, 11:17 PM   #103
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Here's a pic of the new tractrix upper mid, in plenty of air as the spacing was for the larger conical...

Click the image to open in full size.

Now having dropped the height by quite a bit

Click the image to open in full size.

Only problem now is that the rack and the mid horns get together at the back and JBL2482 drivers on the mids are too far forward to allow time alignment. Yuck - not time aligned! I can't listen to it like that.

So, I have gone from the clamp on driver solution that required too much rear protrusion, to a flange arrangement in fibre glass with the drivers bolting on - more as usual. I should have done this from the very beginning I suppose. Ironic that I will prob have Tractrix horns to replace them in a few weeks but there we are. Can DIY, do DIY...

Will be cured tomorrow and in place and time-aligned

Then I will be able to access if lowing / compressing sounds better or not.
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Old 31st August 2012, 11:37 PM   #104
fmena is offline fmena  Canada
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Default How far back is your seating position?

Amazing work. In reading the thread quickly i didn't see mention how far back your seating position was in relation to the speaker set up,.... is it greater than 12 feet?

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Old 1st September 2012, 10:34 AM   #105
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Thanks Frank.

The room is 5m long and I see long ways. So yes, a over 12ft to the drivers, but a bit closer to the mouth of the mid bass horn - it is ~3.7ft long in total.

Time alignment all cured and modded and everything measured and in place.

Sounds much better. I have learned to become critical of time alignment and the smearing esp. of the mid & high treble a lack of it brings.

Now to watch F1 SPA and a bit of listening / cycling / walking when not doing those things.
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Old 23rd September 2012, 12:18 PM   #106
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Well, I lowered the stack as the upper horns are quite a bit smaller.
This produced a negative effect on the Raal Tweeter wave guides - I don't know why.
They measured pretty much the same - perhaps they could disperse in the same way...
I love the sound of the lower stack though.

Other news is that I got a pair of Tractrix 200Hz mid bass horns yesterday.
Mounted them up an am giving them a listen.

Click the image to open in full size.

Here is how it all looks

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

Some have said you get "better dynamics in tractrix".
That's what I wanted to explore.
There is definitely more going on mid detail and that word, dynamics, again.
Violin and esp Viole de Gambe timbre is very fine.
Wide range organ pieces also very good. I always suspected some congestion of sound in the conical - esp mid range.

The 2482's sound superb to my ears. Mellow but interesting and alive enough.
Several vistors have commented on their qualities too.
Great for mid organ and piano, guitar, vocal etc.
Those organ chaps won't use anything else.

More listening needed.
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Old 10th December 2012, 07:44 AM   #107
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So Webshots finally pulled all the links to pics.
I will rebuild with the with photobucket over time. Weird that not all are gone yet..

anyway here's a pic of how it all looks now.

Click the image to open in full size.

As noted on the DSP X over project I have been trialling Behringer 2496 DCX.

Click the image to open in full size.

Each run in mono mode - using 5 of the 6 ouputs for each side.
Once getting the gain structure more right (on the input side) the sound is not bad.
Bass control is even better. Running 48dB / oct L-R slopes on Tapped and Bass horns.
I am trying 48dB/oct on the lower slope of the mid horns too.
The others sound best at 24dB/oct. i have been able to experiment with various X/O points and pretty much what I had in passives is what I prefer. Apart from running the Raal Lazy ribbons a little lower - down from 9KHz X/O to 6 or 7.
This smooths off the top end of the JBE2435Be. Too low and not enough bite though.

I definitely feel the sonic challenge of the ADC and DACs in Behringer is holding things back.

I do feel I have won back what the 2496 DCX limits though, -banishing the passives in the power anp to driver path and probably by allowing each amp to only have to work on the set freq range.

Running the Raal Lazy's lower, I think I def need another SET amp for them.

2 options - Mod it, bypassing the OP amps that make about 8V output for Pro gear. and get the DSP X/O project solution when available. I will need the expansion board that will take a bit longer to be available though.

Opinions most welcome.

Last edited by Speedysteve7; 10th December 2012 at 08:03 AM.
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Old 10th December 2012, 11:45 AM   #108
krzys is offline krzys  Canada
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Default Minidsp

I used DCX for years and I modded one heavly. I now use the minidsp 4x 10 HD. It has 8 channels and nearly all the functions of the DCX for 500$. The point is that SQ is better than DCX and it outputs normal analogue levels not professional. Take a look
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Old 10th December 2012, 11:56 AM   #109
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Thanks for that.
I have been looking and reading about it but taken the plunge.
Needing 10 analog outs was also an issue but I guess I could use a small 2 channel miniDSP for the tapped horn / sub and the 8 output on the rest.
Not sure I could time align all that though.

So miniDSP has better SQ than a heavily modded 2496 DCX then - I've read similar and then some who have said about the same. Level of mods perhaps.

The DSP project is looking to match or better miniDSP - I'm going to give that a shot.

I will mod my 2496 DCX with a simple op am bypass though.



Quote:
Originally Posted by krzys View Post
I used DCX for years and I modded one heavly. I now use the minidsp 4x 10 HD. It has 8 channels and nearly all the functions of the DCX for 500$. The point is that SQ is better than DCX and it outputs normal analogue levels not professional. Take a look
Chris
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Old 10th December 2012, 12:51 PM   #110
krzys is offline krzys  Canada
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You can also use a minidsp and keep one DCX for subs. I do. Maybe the biggest problem is time alignment of the tapped horns, they need very long delay which mini cannot match, 9 ms max. But a lot of people say that time alignment of subs is less important. It is not my experience.
When I said heavily moded it was: digital input, analogue power supply and complete output board
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