Re: DIY vs PRO
I think the ignorant BS is in the list you have made.
These costs are only one side of the equation. Price is determined primarily by what the market will bare. A successful company is one which can deliver a product or service at a price that the market will accept and still cover its costs. If a company can not deliver a product at a price acceptable to the market place then, regardless of the quality or cost of the product, the company fails. I've been on both sides of that equation. So you need to realign your thinking. You need to start by defining a price point based on how many units you expect to sell over a given period of time and work backwards to determine whether the product can be produced at a cost that will allow making a profit and to recover the cost of development over some period of time. The consumer doesn't give a rat’s *** about what you think all those items you listed are worth or what they cost. The consumer will look and listen to the product and then make a decision of what the product is worth, to him.
gerner said:From Ants first reply that anyone can build an equvilent to a Swing MKII...to all comments that all you/we/me 'DIY' can make gainclones for a Pound or a couple USD
This is IMO pretty ignorant BS.
If we address the Swings first friends:
1) How many moulds trials and errors you think you have to make to find the best flare for horns for this and that driver?
2) What do you think Duelund Coherent Audio caps costs in it's first grade?
3) What do you think a CNC program costs? Machine tooling etc?
4) What do you think the exotic internal wireing costs?
5) What do you think 4 years of development costs?
6) What do you think the veneer work and the paint work on the horns costs
7) What do you think all nessecary tools to develop a speaker like the Swings cost?
8) What do you think that BD-Design have invested in criss-crossing boarders for morover 4 years to test something out.?
9) How much do you think it costs to have a OEM bass driver with 5 times lesser tollerances costs?
10) What do you think it cost to throw 40 years of experience in to such a design to get the best out of it?
11) What do you think the cartes for the spekers cost to make, so they arrive in one pcs.
12) Say what if you don't know how to copy them, and simply *you don't*. You can't...I told you.
13) What does it cost to throw and amp inside the Swings and make that work well
14) And so on and so on....
And if you think you can copy and paste these speakers into your living room with that sound, technology and finish just like that....you are more ignorant than I ever would have thought. Who think he can do that for less than 33K? Ha.. And 33K is not what BD-Design can stuff in the pocket, but 23K EURO.
If you start to calculate on this and BD-Design can expect to sell say 50 pairs world-wide over 5 years. Retail muk-ups, transport, customs handeling and so forth...
Is it the unacceptable to a DIY that it takes 5 years to payback the developing time of 4 years, pay for all the variable costs and spent your time?
33K is that money for all this. IMHO no. It is extremely fair. And far away from pricing things like some pro's does. I think you know who I think about.
Some DIY thinks they can make everything 10 times better for 10 times lesser price...free me from this kind of BS.
So now to the gain-clone the CrazyA amp.:
1) What do you know what's inside there? Beside a chip? It's a radical different approach to use a chip. And how do you beside know what chip is in use. A standard of shelf chip of a sorted and selected one? What does it cost to find one out of 100 that is right on spot.
2) What does this cabinet cost you think?
3) Why does this GainClone kick *** compared to the other brands based on a chip.
4) The developing hours. No it's not so ordinary as you think.
5) For how low hourly payment are you willing to assemble it, crate it etc?
Beside the fix costs and a few variables, what do you think it costs to run a company? To sell the products. To spent day and night doing your business?
Sorry guys.
Gerner
I think the ignorant BS is in the list you have made.
These costs are only one side of the equation. Price is determined primarily by what the market will bare. A successful company is one which can deliver a product or service at a price that the market will accept and still cover its costs. If a company can not deliver a product at a price acceptable to the market place then, regardless of the quality or cost of the product, the company fails. I've been on both sides of that equation. So you need to realign your thinking. You need to start by defining a price point based on how many units you expect to sell over a given period of time and work backwards to determine whether the product can be produced at a cost that will allow making a profit and to recover the cost of development over some period of time. The consumer doesn't give a rat’s *** about what you think all those items you listed are worth or what they cost. The consumer will look and listen to the product and then make a decision of what the product is worth, to him.
From a quick look at the BD page to see what all this fuss is about I got the impression you bought more than one pair of these Gerner? It's no surprise then that you find the price reasonable. Obviously this is a personal thing and we're not all going to agree on what is a "reasonable" price. I would just note that the price is comparable to a very good car. It's my impression that a car is a much more complicated system requiring a lot more research, engineering, prototyping, parts, materials, and testing and all the other things you mentioned than a speaker. Obviously the car would be more expensive if they only made a few dozen, but as a consumer this is not my problem. My end of the equation is simply how much "stuff" am I getting for my dollar. I'm not saying the swing is not a good speaker(with zero published data on their page it's hard to get any idea what they do), but they don't look like the most cost effective solution to the problem.
Re: Re: DIY vs PRO
Hi John
I don't mind if you ore other people cal my post for BS. Maybe it is?
You don't neccesarely have to teach me about what you write about pricing and what the market can bare. I'm a businessman my self and sell industrial products in a very competitive market. So I know.
Let me boil it down to this.
For a manufacturer there are the variable costs, such all what the raw material ingredients costs, what the whole product is compiled of.
On top of that there are all the other costs, a profit which form the final price. Then what contribution margin is, is the manufactorers descission of course.
After that there is the market and what it's willing to pay.
If he feels he can compete with a given product in his market, what's wrong with that?
No news here.
I cannot judge if those products I rave about can be sold or not, but it seems a company is making a living out of it. It has been in the market for morover 10 years without bankrupting.
What a product is worth is very difficult to comment on as we judge that by our self.
If we project into the manufacturers pricing that he is a thief, well he maybe is or maybe he is not.
Then the only thing is will we like, will we pay, will we enjoy? That goes for many industry -> cutomers turnaround.
But hey...what if I have a deadly decease and need a certain drug to fight it and the medicine is overpriced 1000 times. Will I buy it? I guess I would.
Now this is of course not related to audio gear as such, as this is not so death frightening as deadly serious physical deceases
But an example showing that an audio customers can buy audio stuff just the same way. If he feels: I cannot live without this product, he pays what it costs, I mean if he can.
Then we can call them for stupid, but why do that, it doesn't concern us.
Gerner
john k... said:
Hi John
I don't mind if you ore other people cal my post for BS. Maybe it is?
You don't neccesarely have to teach me about what you write about pricing and what the market can bare. I'm a businessman my self and sell industrial products in a very competitive market. So I know.
Let me boil it down to this.
For a manufacturer there are the variable costs, such all what the raw material ingredients costs, what the whole product is compiled of.
On top of that there are all the other costs, a profit which form the final price. Then what contribution margin is, is the manufactorers descission of course.
After that there is the market and what it's willing to pay.
If he feels he can compete with a given product in his market, what's wrong with that?
No news here.
I cannot judge if those products I rave about can be sold or not, but it seems a company is making a living out of it. It has been in the market for morover 10 years without bankrupting.
What a product is worth is very difficult to comment on as we judge that by our self.
If we project into the manufacturers pricing that he is a thief, well he maybe is or maybe he is not.
Then the only thing is will we like, will we pay, will we enjoy? That goes for many industry -> cutomers turnaround.
But hey...what if I have a deadly decease and need a certain drug to fight it and the medicine is overpriced 1000 times. Will I buy it? I guess I would.
Now this is of course not related to audio gear as such, as this is not so death frightening as deadly serious physical deceases
But an example showing that an audio customers can buy audio stuff just the same way. If he feels: I cannot live without this product, he pays what it costs, I mean if he can.
Then we can call them for stupid, but why do that, it doesn't concern us.
Gerner
poptart said:
Yes I bought two pairs. The MKI and the MKII of the Swings. The former model MKI, I sold.
I find the price more than resonable compared to the 1000's of speakers I have heard, otherwise I obviously would not buy it.
I'm not claiming that the Swings or any other product I own, is somthing people really should run after and buy. I follow my taste as any other normal person would do. DIY or not.
Is there any more mystics to it?
Gerner
Bratislav said:
Actually, I don't think that's true. If it is they never told me. I think it is true different people might rate them differently as far as say 1,2,or 3 etc. but I don't think that anyone didn't like them. This is a small point that is independent of what I said before and that is that loudspeakers IMO are not a subjective thing once they get better and better. It is only the flaws that can be subjective. A flawless speaker has nothing to be subjective about - (except appearance, which admittedly is often 80% of the judgement.)
poptart said:
Maybe I can add this popstart...
I'm aware that I'm on a DIY forum. In the past, many years ago, I made my own amps and speakers, drivers, cables, resistors, coils and caps and so on, but discovered that the speakers were more challenging to work out myself.
So I am a DIY sort of a way. But certainly not on each and every single part of my gear.
So we might have two groups of people at least: Those who DIY because they can potentially get more for the buck, if they know what they are doing. The economical issue mostly. Or just the lust making it your self in good or bad.
And those who just to refuse throwing profits into anyones pockets because they know they can for half the price or less make satisfaction to them self or not is enough.
But what we/some always seems forget as DIY'ers is that the screwdriver we use, the other tools, measuring equipment, materials, morgage in our workshops...just add to the list...is maybe not so due to the price/quality ratios discussions when we buy these tools....as when we judge the results of our work...we/some doesn't calculate all that into what it really cost to be a DIY.
If I take a look back into what my audio interest has cost me...maybe I'll faint or even die of the chock just realizing that fact being far over the end results price tag.
It costed me a lot to learn what I know today factually and subjectively.
Why audio forums is exposed to everything from sharing subjectively or objectivly findings, onto just insults and humiliating comments, cannot be found in many other subject forums to that extend.
It's really a phychological mystery why it is so? To me it is.
To find my self among all these different forums is a result of my past life, and I trigger on something that I beleive is false or true.
Insultings I deal with privately.
I don't react that much anymore to the people who are audio clairvoiants and know how things sound even having heard it in their own reference system. It seems to me to be a matter of, that you read what the person raves about, and right away fires a bullit aganist his head. *MORON*. Haven't we seen enough of that kind?
I cannot count how many times I was entitled a *MORON AUDIO IDIOT*. I was never banned by any moderator, except one who has a private forum. I have never posted one line there. But i was banned anyhow.
I know all this is *Out Of Topic*..but it's placed in the context as we all see in this thread.
It is my hope that, even some is shouting a bit including myself, and being ironical or teasing that my little appearence here is not disturbing anyones night sleep.
Cheers Canada...I have family in Toronto BTW.
Gerner
Re: DIY vs PRO
Damn Gerner, you write long replies. I'll see if I can cut to the chase in 10,000 words or less.
There are calculations and models for this sort of thing. It doesn't need to be blind.
Caps!? I don't use 'em personally, all active you see. But most round here don't buy into audio jewellery such as that. Good is good enough.
I'm a human CNC so no cost
About the same as a trip to the Bahamas? I know what I'd pick out the two Again this is audio jewellery. Look what cable did to this guy:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=97-9vHfvREk
Not bad at all. There's folks on here being doing development for 30 years or more
Next to nothing compared to 33k - I've got some experience in quality finishes so can speak from some experience here. DIY'ers on here regularly come up with that level of finish or better and the cost for materials are very reasonable.
Measurement setups are cheap nowadays, an ECM8k, ARTA, a PC and a good soundcard are within virtually everyone's reach. As for construction tools, many people on here have enough to pull off very nice designs and some even have CNC facilities. Tools are a cost factor though and if your starting from scratch then I'd estimate you'll have to buy a router, table saw, mitre saw, cordless drill and jigsaw.
Having bought Audiotechnology then yes, its more expensive. It still doesn't justify the Swing price though. Driver are a very small cost portion of the Swing design. Think 6% by my calculations.
There's 1000's of years of collective experience on this forum.
DIY'ers don't need to ship their own creation to themselves.
Why copy? DIY offers other possibilities for tailoring. You don't have to settle for someone else's choices in compromises and profit margin.
Pretty much the same as the folks who put plate amps into enclosures.
Sure people have to make a living but that's not my point. Don't mistake audio magic as an impossible goal for a DIY'er to accomplish.
Come on Gerner, give us some credit.
A chipamp is one of the simplest amps around, look through the chipamp forums on here and see that there are no secret implementations left to discover.
The enclosures Bert uses are from here:
http://www.hexateq.com/
Read this:
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/audiosector/patek.html
The designer of that amp, sells the PCB and components seperately. I bought some and had a working stereo amp using the same components for £150. I found better DIY amps for my needs.
My point is marketing is strong influence and from reading the 6moons review you could believe this is a fit for anyone.
Well that's another feather in the DIY cap because the cost go into the amp and not website, marketing, packaging, assembly. Its all component costs. No way commercial can compete with that.
Damn Gerner, you write long replies. I'll see if I can cut to the chase in 10,000 words or less.
gerner said:From Ants first reply that anyone can build an equvilent to a Swing MKII...to all comments that all you/we/me 'DIY' can make gainclones for a Pound or a couple USD
This is IMO pretty ignorant BS.
If we address the Swings first friends:
1) How many moulds trials and errors you think you have to make to find the best flare for horns for this and that driver?
There are calculations and models for this sort of thing. It doesn't need to be blind.
Caps!? I don't use 'em personally, all active you see. But most round here don't buy into audio jewellery such as that. Good is good enough.
I'm a human CNC so no cost
About the same as a trip to the Bahamas? I know what I'd pick out the two
Again this is audio jewellery. Look what cable did to this guy:http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=97-9vHfvREk
Not bad at all. There's folks on here being doing development for 30 years or more
Next to nothing compared to 33k - I've got some experience in quality finishes so can speak from some experience here. DIY'ers on here regularly come up with that level of finish or better and the cost for materials are very reasonable.
Measurement setups are cheap nowadays, an ECM8k, ARTA, a PC and a good soundcard are within virtually everyone's reach. As for construction tools, many people on here have enough to pull off very nice designs and some even have CNC facilities. Tools are a cost factor though and if your starting from scratch then I'd estimate you'll have to buy a router, table saw, mitre saw, cordless drill and jigsaw.
Having bought Audiotechnology then yes, its more expensive. It still doesn't justify the Swing price though. Driver are a very small cost portion of the Swing design. Think 6% by my calculations.
There's 1000's of years of collective experience on this forum.
DIY'ers don't need to ship their own creation to themselves.
Why copy? DIY offers other possibilities for tailoring. You don't have to settle for someone else's choices in compromises and profit margin.
Pretty much the same as the folks who put plate amps into enclosures.
Sure people have to make a living but that's not my point. Don't mistake audio magic as an impossible goal for a DIY'er to accomplish.
Come on Gerner, give us some credit.
A chipamp is one of the simplest amps around, look through the chipamp forums on here and see that there are no secret implementations left to discover.
The enclosures Bert uses are from here:
http://www.hexateq.com/
Read this:
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/audiosector/patek.html
The designer of that amp, sells the PCB and components seperately. I bought some and had a working stereo amp using the same components for £150. I found better DIY amps for my needs.
My point is marketing is strong influence and from reading the 6moons review you could believe this is a fit for anyone.
Well that's another feather in the DIY cap because the cost go into the amp and not website, marketing, packaging, assembly. Its all component costs. No way commercial can compete with that.
Bratislav said:
no, the question makes a lot of sense as a start to learn about someone's listening paradigms, taste, philosophy, approach etc etc.
geddes is not the only person on planet who claim to make the best speakers in the world though most i've met are serious cases for certain type of a close-type institution, no pun intended.
however, considering the number of white papers, academic titles and other artefact of supreme knowledge, i'm wondering why the hell on earth anyone thinks of buying any other speakers.
gedlee said:
no, but you have to accept that your position is stated in the first sentence on your paper of summas - that yours are the best speakers in the world. i think you've completely disqualified yourself from a serious discussion on ANY other manufacturers products because you are simply driven by your own interest.
also that's clearly a reason why you jumped on a new name on the US market.
forum driven marketing is all over, and unfortunately even DIYaudio is not an exception anymore. just look at feastrex topics.
really can't remember the last time when someone claimed to have the best speaker in the world - even arguably.... a reason good enough to stay even from such
One problem with prices for audio gear is the low demand. The average to below average stuff that can be gotten at Best Buy etc. is actually quite good for the money - the value is very high. But what if you want something above average, well thats a problem. As you go above average the volumes fall fast because the demand isn't there. With low volumes you can't use any economies of scale so the costs start to go up, and they go up fast.
For example, I can get a great compression driver for $100 buying maybe 20 at a time. BUT, I could get a compression driver very very close in performance (and in fact with some time I could get it to match the performance) for about $15 in China. BUT it takes about $10,000 to buy enough drivers and get them here to get that prices. So if I could sell 1000 speakers, I could lower the price by 85% (assuming all other components could be similarly cost reduced, which is actually quite reasonable). But to sell 1000 speakers requires a marketing budget that dwarfes all the other costs and we are right back to the same high cost and hence high price.
Basically the cost of a speaker is a bargin if the speaker is average or below average. Just above average and its no longer a bargin and well above average and its getting quite expensive. To be in the upper edges of the very best, the costs get to be outrageous.
This is all a sad result of the fact that for the vast majority of people, "average" sound quality is good enough.
For example, I can get a great compression driver for $100 buying maybe 20 at a time. BUT, I could get a compression driver very very close in performance (and in fact with some time I could get it to match the performance) for about $15 in China. BUT it takes about $10,000 to buy enough drivers and get them here to get that prices. So if I could sell 1000 speakers, I could lower the price by 85% (assuming all other components could be similarly cost reduced, which is actually quite reasonable). But to sell 1000 speakers requires a marketing budget that dwarfes all the other costs and we are right back to the same high cost and hence high price.
Basically the cost of a speaker is a bargin if the speaker is average or below average. Just above average and its no longer a bargin and well above average and its getting quite expensive. To be in the upper edges of the very best, the costs get to be outrageous.
This is all a sad result of the fact that for the vast majority of people, "average" sound quality is good enough.
shin, you are fully right - no ready made product can match what a good DIY-er can tailor for his room, taste & listening habits. but what shall the rest of the audiophile planet do - those who can't built, have no knowledge, have no money or have no time.
i don't get how did you get to the point of forensic examination of the swing's price.
yes they are costly but they deliver what they cost and that is the major difference between them and many other expensive speakers out there. the DIY background of their manufacturer and practically no secrets behind the design in major areas (horns, drivers) has raised the question of the price despite the fact that BD-design is very modest in marketing and has no orchestrated forum campaigns as many others - bert never cruises here like his colleagues that we can read and argue with here. he only openned the door of his studio so anyone can go there and hear them for themselves. that's the only marketing this guy does.
so, are swings expensive?
yes, very.
have i heard a better ready made speaker for that money?
not yet.
last but not least, this discussion is completely out of place - this is the DIY forum but obviously someone committed a huge mistake of mentioning the swings as the best sound of RMAF.
this is a no no thing.
i don't get how did you get to the point of forensic examination of the swing's price.
yes they are costly but they deliver what they cost and that is the major difference between them and many other expensive speakers out there. the DIY background of their manufacturer and practically no secrets behind the design in major areas (horns, drivers) has raised the question of the price despite the fact that BD-design is very modest in marketing and has no orchestrated forum campaigns as many others - bert never cruises here like his colleagues that we can read and argue with here. he only openned the door of his studio so anyone can go there and hear them for themselves. that's the only marketing this guy does.
so, are swings expensive?
yes, very.
have i heard a better ready made speaker for that money?
not yet.
last but not least, this discussion is completely out of place - this is the DIY forum but obviously someone committed a huge mistake of mentioning the swings as the best sound of RMAF.
this is a no no thing.
anubisgrau said:
I am in a catch-22 position. I am a manufacturer not by choice, I'd much rather NOT do it and just do design and or technology licensing, but thats not the way the world works. So I have to make speakers to get anywhere.
But I am still an audio afficionodo, I love music and I listen to it a lot. But because I am also a manufacturer, I can't be taken seriously - you said so yourself. Quite honestly, I have tried to stay away from commenting on others speakers and I seldom, if ever, make my own comments on mine - I do encourage other people to do so however as these are free from bias. And if you look at my career you will see that I have been an audio manufacturer for a very very small fraction of it. My main interest is to promote what I have spent my life doing - audio systems. The circumstances require that for me to do that I have to be a manufacturer (there aren't any schools in audio systems anywhere so I can't teach - although I do head the ALMA Training committee and regularly teach courses for them).
I am not sure what you mean by "why you jumped on a new name on the US market". I didn't jump on anybody. The only thing that I have said at all is that the statement "They are as perfect as they can be." is logically not saying anything (perhaps It's a problem with non-native English). I did say that using Avante-Garde as a comparison may not be such a good thing since a lot of people here have commented that they didn't like them. I've never commented on them at all.
Farewell
All forumers here that responded to this thread, except you Anu as we have a lot of other things to share...Zoran we have too..
It is really time for me to leave. It makes no sence what I write or what you write. As on all other forums.
Donate: And you have your fredom of speach. Is it really so? Or was I too far out here in conspiration.
I'm up to something else than spending more time here....
Ant..thanks for your respond which takes time to do. We will keep in touch.
Cheers to all of you..and I'll have a shot of Burbon now.
Gerner
All forumers here that responded to this thread, except you Anu as we have a lot of other things to share...Zoran we have too..
It is really time for me to leave. It makes no sence what I write or what you write. As on all other forums.
Donate: And you have your fredom of speach. Is it really so? Or was I too far out here in conspiration.
I'm up to something else than spending more time here....
Ant..thanks for your respond which takes time to do. We will keep in touch.
Cheers to all of you..and I'll have a shot of Burbon now.
Gerner
Gerners claim that it would be impossible for a single DIY person to clone or better the Swings is where I came in.
I look at the component cost vs. the final price and because I can DIY I don't agree with spending that much money. Its a waste IMO. I could pay someone to cut my lawn but I'm perfectly capable of doing it myself so it would be a waste of money.
Gerner brought the Swings into question by hyping them up and then stating DIY of that standard isn't possible. Its pretty clear to me where this was going to end up considering this is a DIY forum.
Yet more elitist rubbish on the audio subject. I contest that my own design would offer similar audio enjoyment and finish quality yet cost a fraction of the Swings. Others around here would add to that or go a step further. Therefore I have little time for such bold and asserted claims as commercial superiority over a one guy in his shed.
Re: Farewell
No problem Gerner. Our points, however far apart, are something we believe in and it takes no time at all to express those.
We've disagreed before and will do so again but when you move the beliefs out the picture we both have much in common, a love for audio and a constant desire to keep learning and improving. These little debate distractions are just our own exercising of demons that we do ever now and then.
No problem Gerner. Our points, however far apart, are something we believe in and it takes no time at all to express those.
We've disagreed before and will do so again but when you move the beliefs out the picture we both have much in common, a love for audio and a constant desire to keep learning and improving. These little debate distractions are just our own exercising of demons that we do ever now and then.
I think that Gerner would fit in well here. He just needs to get used to the place and understand that people here are not trying to insult each other. Anytime one starts calling something BS, one has to expect the discussion to escalate. Sometime we get a bit emotional , but arguments on "morality" of price and DIY advantages and disadvantages are not going to be resolved, so indeed are pointless. Sometimes entertaining though.
Most of us here just HAVE to make stuff, it isn't rational, and doesn't always lead to t he best results. But it is amazing how often a little study and experimentation leads to pretty good stuff!
It was useful to be reminded that BD supplies components to DIYers, and always has. Because we always want to experiment for ourselves, we appreciate manufacturers that supply us with horns or foamy waveguides, etc. for us to play with as well as completed projects, and we are willing to pay a decent price for these as we know what is hard to do and what is easy for each of us personally.
Most of us here just HAVE to make stuff, it isn't rational, and doesn't always lead to t he best results. But it is amazing how often a little study and experimentation leads to pretty good stuff!
It was useful to be reminded that BD supplies components to DIYers, and always has. Because we always want to experiment for ourselves, we appreciate manufacturers that supply us with horns or foamy waveguides, etc. for us to play with as well as completed projects, and we are willing to pay a decent price for these as we know what is hard to do and what is easy for each of us personally.
Variac said:
I glad that you appreciate it!! But whats a decent price for some is not for others. I think that the discussion here highlights that.
I would agree though there is no comparing what someone can do themselves to something that you buy finished - at least not as far as price goes. The more you do the greater the bargain.
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