gerner said:
I browsed you HP and the patent.
Well I can say only what you claim there has to be heard by my own ears.
A lot of fine words inside there, I must admit... that this is not a patent worth. You got it, but a patent is no guerantee for the good sound. But of course you liked it that way and took the patent. OK.
I'll leave the subject to anybody to be judged. I have no opinon, as said.
No more from my side on that as it will turn into bibles of writing and you and I must the have same age + -, and no time left for commenting anymore.
Cheers
Gerner
angeloitacare said:
hehehe, Gerner......
i don't think someone here has us$33.000,00 left to buy a pair of Swings.... beside that, DIY is much more fun....
Angelo
As you say Angelo...
I don't care who want's to pay what for what.
But the *here* is not the far east, Dubai or Russia, where that sum is what they pay for a good average cigar.
When i spot something I just want, I simply buy it. That's it.
Gerner
gerner said:
As you say Angelo...
I don't care who want's to pay what for what.
But the *here* is not the far east, Dubai or Russia, where that sum is what they pay for a good average cigar.
When i spot something I just want, I simply buy it. That's it.
Gerner
BTW Angelo...we all have to face the fact that buying your favourite Ferrari or Porche, this is not likely we can make it ouself. And save a buck on that. Ha...
DIY is fun. I agree.
But start to build a Rolex clock, improve it, get patents, is that funny?....no not IMO. That takes time as hell and sucks out your short life and it's not there we should spent time. Again IMO.
Is it so that DIY always is the winners? Not objectively.
Can anyone tell me what is the difference between a pro manufaturers DIY and ours.? Who is compromising here. Commercial interest or lack of knowledge?
Angelo you have thoughts, wishes, being just changing your staus from a DIY with own Home Page and dream about being a a pro commercial company. That change, if you wish that, will affect pricings an all that.
But having fun during a certain process in your life make sence of course.
GernerSpeaking as the person who Gerner mentioned earlier as 'giving up on Avantgarde Trio speakers' in favour of the Swing speakers from BD-Design, it has been interesting for me to read this quite extended thread relating to and around the Swing speakers. I have owned a number of different speakers over the years, including Avantgarde Duos, but I must in all fairness point out that my experience with the Avantgarde Trio speakers was limited to what I suspect was a fairly inadequate demonstration. I cannot be certain, but I suspect that the room, possibly the amplification, and the subwoofer settings were not optimal.
What really convinced me to make the decision to purchase the Swings was listening to them (at the home of the designer, Bert Doppenberg) on two occasions over reasonably extended listening sessions. It boiled down not to a question of whether the Swings are 'better' or 'worse' than other speakers there may be out there, but the fact that for me they sounded supremely musical and pleasing, to the extent that I did not feel I wanted to explore the possibility of other speakers any further. This may be perceived as being foolishness on my behalf, but I am very comfortable with my decision. Of course, it remains to be seen how I feel when I listen to them at home - they are due for delivery within the next week or two - but I shall be extremely surprised (and disappointed!) if they don't sound just as good to my ears.
And those last few words, I guess sum up the point I would like to make. It is possible to dive into all sorts of theoretical arguments about the likely sound and/or specification of a speaker, but in the end it's what it sounds like to an individual that matters. Of course, if a quoted specification is grossly inaccurate, it is in the manufacturer's interest to correct the situation but, as I believe Gerner mentioned, that won't alter how it actually sounds. There are obviously a number of people at this forum who are extremely knowledgeable on the subject of loudspeaker design; something about which I am very ignorant. Doubtless, their observations are technically correct, but frankly I am reluctant to pay too much attention to anyone's comments about a speaker unless they have listened to it themselves.
Finally, it's a pleasure to read an extended thread which, unlike what so often happens at Audio Asylum, has not deteriorated into mudslinging and personal abuse.
JeremyB2
What really convinced me to make the decision to purchase the Swings was listening to them (at the home of the designer, Bert Doppenberg) on two occasions over reasonably extended listening sessions. It boiled down not to a question of whether the Swings are 'better' or 'worse' than other speakers there may be out there, but the fact that for me they sounded supremely musical and pleasing, to the extent that I did not feel I wanted to explore the possibility of other speakers any further. This may be perceived as being foolishness on my behalf, but I am very comfortable with my decision. Of course, it remains to be seen how I feel when I listen to them at home - they are due for delivery within the next week or two - but I shall be extremely surprised (and disappointed!) if they don't sound just as good to my ears.
And those last few words, I guess sum up the point I would like to make. It is possible to dive into all sorts of theoretical arguments about the likely sound and/or specification of a speaker, but in the end it's what it sounds like to an individual that matters. Of course, if a quoted specification is grossly inaccurate, it is in the manufacturer's interest to correct the situation but, as I believe Gerner mentioned, that won't alter how it actually sounds. There are obviously a number of people at this forum who are extremely knowledgeable on the subject of loudspeaker design; something about which I am very ignorant. Doubtless, their observations are technically correct, but frankly I am reluctant to pay too much attention to anyone's comments about a speaker unless they have listened to it themselves.
Finally, it's a pleasure to read an extended thread which, unlike what so often happens at Audio Asylum, has not deteriorated into mudslinging and personal abuse.
JeremyB2
janneman said:
Quite correct. Its obviousness that the USPTO made their major arguments about. But according to patent law obviousness has to have some support, it has to be shown that others would have easily thought of this as a simple and logical deduction of prior art - which has to be defined and disclosed. The examiner can't just say its obvious and let it go at that, the burdon of proof is on them. The invention can be totally simple, that doesn't matter, but it can't be obvious. But then I ask you, if it were so obvious then why hasn't anyone done it before? I have several affidavits from designers working in the field who state that the use of foam is not obvious at all and, in fact, is counter intuitive - a key point! I found several statements in other patents talking about how any obstruction of the sound wave in a horn would have a detrimental effect. The prevailing philosophy at the time of my disclosure was that sound absorbing material placed in a horn would be a bad thing. That clearly makes using it "not obvious".
JeremyB2 said:
As to what I can say sciencetifically... Bloody true.
You will not get disappointed Jeremy. Even you let you door open to eventual disapointments. It's not paying back the investment? I think it is, as aIl I heard sofar and the pricetags on what I heard was totally out of porportions.
Hell they are.
I sound like one who wants to promote, sell..the Swings.
Not at all. I don't care what people buy and what is available in their wallets.
I just say this is until sofar the best commersialized speakers that I know of.
Gerner
'The prevailing philosophy at the time of my disclosure was that sound absorbing material placed in a horn would be a bad thing. That clearly makes using it "not obvious".'
That surprises me a bit only because of the Urei horns used back into the late 70's and 80's. They had a foam difraction ring as well as foam pads inside as well as vents on the larger version used on the 15" drivers. That said they never took it futher than that. Looking at it from your perspective thinking HOM it make sense, not recognizing the significance or existence of them it certainly is counter intuitive.
Rob
That surprises me a bit only because of the Urei horns used back into the late 70's and 80's. They had a foam difraction ring as well as foam pads inside as well as vents on the larger version used on the 15" drivers. That said they never took it futher than that. Looking at it from your perspective thinking HOM it make sense, not recognizing the significance or existence of them it certainly is counter intuitive.
Rob
Attachments
The UREI approach is well know and disclosed in my application. There was also a case of some foam down in the throat of a diffraction horn from Meyer some years back. This too was disclosed in the application, but was not brought up by the examiner since it was found to be "not discoverable", i.e. there was no public documentation of what it was for or what it is claimed to do, so it can't be used as prior art.
gerner said:
Gerner
And in this thread I really miss the manufacturers respond. I can justiyfy scientific about it. I cannot defend the product. Just correct what is misundertandings arrond it.
As to what I can say sciencetifically... Bloody true Jeremy it is.
You will not get disappointed Jeremy. Even you let you door open to eventual disapointments. It's not paying back the investment? I think it is, as aIl I heard sofar and the pricetags on what I heard was totally out of porportions.
Hell they are.
I sound like one who wants to promote, sell..the Swings. I sound like one who defend what I spend my money on. Not so.
Not at all. I have no shares in that commercial part and don't care what people buy and what is available in their wallets.
I just say this is until sofar the best commersialized speakers that I know of.
And as said before not a DIY target who anyone DIY should try to target. It's a waste of time.
Gerner
its certainly unfair to compare what you can get, between a DIY project, and a finished consumer product. Not everybody has the balls to spend several month or even years, to develop and tweak a hornspeaker, to get high-end , state of the art level. Its really not easy....it's art and science, many hobbyst's can come up with o.k. sounding speakers, but to bring it to a highest level, is a very demanding task. Not everyones job....
Comparing the Swings with other contenders, like Avantgarde Duo Omega, the Swings are in a reasonable price range. Not cheap, but also not overpriced..... Making a DIY project with 33k however, you can get certainly a system of a completely other caliber and quality level.... having the knowledge, time, and guts to go it through....
Angelo
Comparing the Swings with other contenders, like Avantgarde Duo Omega, the Swings are in a reasonable price range. Not cheap, but also not overpriced..... Making a DIY project with 33k however, you can get certainly a system of a completely other caliber and quality level.... having the knowledge, time, and guts to go it through....
Angelo
i opened a thread at AA about the practiced prices at RMAF :
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/hug/messages/13/137343.html
outrageous is in my opinion a Kaiser Kawero 92dB-sensitive speakers for $50,000/pair. When you can get a similar configuration , like the
Balanced Power Technologies Cirrus 2-way bookshelf loudspeakers. for $2595 pr.
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue39/rmaf083.htm
33k is a lot of money, but that includes dealer and distribution markup.
Compared to what other manufacturers with similar speakers and configuration ask, its not out of reason.... I would not sell my 4way horn system for much less than that as well ;but there goes several month of craftmanship and expensive components into them.....
Angelo
I think that the dealer business model is dead. Why pay someone 50% just to handle your purchase for you. Buy from the internet and cut out this outrageous middleman. The best speakers that I have ever heard are only $7000 a pair. Thats a lot of savings compared to the prices that you are quoting.
![t_orphean%20horn%20kit[1].jpg](/community/data/attachments/106/106474-a353210e5976eca335d41efd5da22915.jpg)
- Status
- Not open for further replies.