gedlee said:
That's so true and very well put, thank you!
I even holds true for DIY, as we tend to buy parts at very small retail volumes. At least the labor is "free" and the overhead low.
gedlee said:
You can count me into that group. Heard them at FSI in Montreal and was shocked at how bad they were. I don't understand what was going on with the A-Gs. Strange to exibt such a bad sounding rig - I don't get it. And by bad, I mean gross distortion - nothing subtle. With the parts they use and the build quality, they should be miles better. odd....
Sure am sorry I missed the Swings at RMAF this year, would have loved to hear them.
gedlee said:
I wasn't talking about people that visited you. I'm sure I've read a few negative comments on some of the forums (perhaps even this one) after one of the public demos of Summas (an RMAF equivalent of sorts).
Just to make things clear.
PS I'm sure I can dig the exact quotes/links if you want, but I don't think it is necessary. Especially as personal preferences/prejudices are usually at play (just see the polar opposite comments on Linkwitz Orions, a speaker that I do know well and respect a lot).
i'm really wondering if they would be such a succesful company if their speakers would audibibly distort to such a level.
maybe the audiophile world is full of morons as romy says but we've all heard different speakers underperforming for different reasons.
i'm not interested in defending AGs at all, but such a bold statement usually doesn't speak much about a product.
maybe the audiophile world is full of morons as romy says but we've all heard different speakers underperforming for different reasons.
i'm not interested in defending AGs at all, but such a bold statement usually doesn't speak much about a product.
Avantgardes
as mentioned already a few times, i heard the Avantgarde Trio with basshorn at Holger Frommes home ( owner of Avantgarde ), back in 1994. O.k. he played mainly drums, which is not very indicative, but it was the most impressive and remarkable presentation i ever heard. Last at CES2007, they were playing the Duo Omega's, and it was in my opinion far the best sounding system at the show . I had the Orpheans at the time, and Klipschorn bass section, and my system at home was not even coming close to what AG presented.....i don't hesitate to say, i admire them a lot.
Angelo
as mentioned already a few times, i heard the Avantgarde Trio with basshorn at Holger Frommes home ( owner of Avantgarde ), back in 1994. O.k. he played mainly drums, which is not very indicative, but it was the most impressive and remarkable presentation i ever heard. Last at CES2007, they were playing the Duo Omega's, and it was in my opinion far the best sounding system at the show . I had the Orpheans at the time, and Klipschorn bass section, and my system at home was not even coming close to what AG presented.....i don't hesitate to say, i admire them a lot.
Angelo
Well, you see ... that's what I find so odd.
We have both Belgrade and Brazil saying these are great. And they are a well known, respected speaker. And even I admire the design. It ought to sound great. But it did not.
And I was not the only one in Montreal who heard the problems. So what can I tell you? Do I know why it was bad? No I do not. But the faults were not sublte. It sounded like drivers being badly over driven. No other system I heard at FSI or RMAF 2007 & 2008 had such big issues.
As anubisgrau says:
That's very true. And I do not know the reasons why the AGs had the problems they did at FSI. It could have been any number of things.
So there you have it. No point in my going on about. That's what I heard, and several people I talked to said the same thing.
No need to beat it to death.
I'll leave it alone now....
We have both Belgrade and Brazil saying these are great. And they are a well known, respected speaker. And even I admire the design. It ought to sound great. But it did not.
And I was not the only one in Montreal who heard the problems. So what can I tell you? Do I know why it was bad? No I do not. But the faults were not sublte. It sounded like drivers being badly over driven. No other system I heard at FSI or RMAF 2007 & 2008 had such big issues.
As anubisgrau says:
That's very true. And I do not know the reasons why the AGs had the problems they did at FSI. It could have been any number of things.
So there you have it. No point in my going on about. That's what I heard, and several people I talked to said the same thing.
No need to beat it to death.
I'll leave it alone now....
Re: Avantgardes
Hi All,
This is my first post here only to set some things straight again.
See below...
Hopefully the last because I hardly have the time to follow all forums and besides that, I have my own forum where people can ask questions or post remarks about my products as described in this extended thread.
Without generalizing, posts like Angelo's show exactly what the DIY world is all about....everybody thinks that they can do way better for much less money than commercial companies are able to, probably because the companies only want to make money...?
If a DIY-er has the knowledge (after many years of trial and error) then yes, this can be possible (I started as DIY-er myself) but please forget about knowing it all better than others and stop fooling yourselves....
Angelo,
When you post opinions like this then why don't you post all related information making it more clear to others why your system at the time flawed on all aspects?
And also the source you used at the time.....MP3's converted to WAV?
Posting incomplete information like this only brings confusion especially if those remarks come from people who have no clue whatsoever what they are doing...
Welcome to the DIY-world claiming to be able to build better things for far less money....yeah sure.
Here a link to my forum for you to remember...
http://forum.bd-design.nl/index.php?id=12838
Please stop talking about your previous experiences and especially about the Orphean as you never ever heard its true capabilities!
Bert Doppenberg
Hi All,
This is my first post here only to set some things straight again.
See below...
Hopefully the last because I hardly have the time to follow all forums and besides that, I have my own forum where people can ask questions or post remarks about my products as described in this extended thread.
Without generalizing, posts like Angelo's show exactly what the DIY world is all about....everybody thinks that they can do way better for much less money than commercial companies are able to, probably because the companies only want to make money...?
If a DIY-er has the knowledge (after many years of trial and error) then yes, this can be possible (I started as DIY-er myself) but please forget about knowing it all better than others and stop fooling yourselves....
angeloitacare said:
Angelo,
When you post opinions like this then why don't you post all related information making it more clear to others why your system at the time flawed on all aspects?
And also the source you used at the time.....MP3's converted to WAV?
Posting incomplete information like this only brings confusion especially if those remarks come from people who have no clue whatsoever what they are doing...
Welcome to the DIY-world claiming to be able to build better things for far less money....yeah sure.
Here a link to my forum for you to remember...
http://forum.bd-design.nl/index.php?id=12838
Please stop talking about your previous experiences and especially about the Orphean as you never ever heard its true capabilities!
Bert Doppenberg
I would also like to second this request. I find it untenable that a speaker with such claims for "perfection" can be shown without even the slightest objective data to support the claims. As we have seen there isn't any consistancy of subjective opinions, and there likely won't ever be any, so we have to discount those, even perhaps rejecting them altogether, which leaves us wanting for something real - like actual data - on which to judge the claims for ourselves.
hello Bert
nice to see you here....
your post surprises me .... and seems to have only one reason : to discredit what i wrote. Since you ask to give all related information.... here it goes : don't you remember, that i told you, that i have many original audiophile cd's, and excellent recordings, like Sheffield Lab ?
funny.... you told me that once in a private email too.... but it made me smile, after i got the information, who actually is behind the Swing design, crossover design, amp design etc.....
have you made ever a test, and tried a Radian 950pb compression driver in a 25" tractrix horn, and a horn tweeter above ? to use such a big horn, as the Orphean, to cover the treble, is a wrong design anyway. The treble beams , and doesnt sound good.... so, i don't give you much credit on this....
Angelo
nice to see you here....
your post surprises me .... and seems to have only one reason : to discredit what i wrote. Since you ask to give all related information.... here it goes : don't you remember, that i told you, that i have many original audiophile cd's, and excellent recordings, like Sheffield Lab ?
funny.... you told me that once in a private email too.... but it made me smile, after i got the information, who actually is behind the Swing design, crossover design, amp design etc.....
have you made ever a test, and tried a Radian 950pb compression driver in a 25" tractrix horn, and a horn tweeter above ? to use such a big horn, as the Orphean, to cover the treble, is a wrong design anyway. The treble beams , and doesnt sound good.... so, i don't give you much credit on this....
Angelo
Re: Re: Avantgardes
Bert,
DIY doesn't mean ignorant. Among the members of this forum you will find many professionals in relevant fields, some of them world authorities on the subject (I wouldn't be surprised for example that some of the designers of the very chip you use in your "First Class" (sic) amplifier are members of DIY forum), often holding PhDs and postdocs and many patents in the field. It is incredibly condescending, even rude to claim outright superior knowledge, even on your own site. Please do search for few posts from Nelson Pass for an exmaple of how world best designers can happily coexist with DIYers, have a healthy respect for each other and share the knowledge. Noone knows everything, if we stop to learn, no matter how small and unimportant it might seem, that is our loss. Even form a lowly DIYer; he might be a seasoned pro in another field (and often is).
Hoping for a change of heart, best,
Bratislav
Oris said:
Bert,
DIY doesn't mean ignorant. Among the members of this forum you will find many professionals in relevant fields, some of them world authorities on the subject (I wouldn't be surprised for example that some of the designers of the very chip you use in your "First Class" (sic) amplifier are members of DIY forum), often holding PhDs and postdocs and many patents in the field. It is incredibly condescending, even rude to claim outright superior knowledge, even on your own site. Please do search for few posts from Nelson Pass for an exmaple of how world best designers can happily coexist with DIYers, have a healthy respect for each other and share the knowledge. Noone knows everything, if we stop to learn, no matter how small and unimportant it might seem, that is our loss. Even form a lowly DIYer; he might be a seasoned pro in another field (and often is).
Hoping for a change of heart, best,
Bratislav
TNT?
The Naked Truth?
All this Swing dingle-dangle has nothing to do with that some DIY'ers cannot do the same. Of course they can. Maybe even better.
That I claimed he could not copy it, was not the same as he cannot make a similar like product. Worse or better.
The DIY can maybe not save as much money as one might think. It is a rather expensive speaker to make for most and as it's commercial means a lot of indirect costs thrown on top of only the raw material ingredients.
There is no secrets to them except there are applied DUELUND/LARS/GERNER filter philosophies into them.
Those pholisophies even 15 years old can be found on the net. As one day that Duelund started to feel sick and where hit by cancer he took his rest time to write about all that. Lars and I did not have the time or felt the need.
It doesn't mean that his philosophy where not taken further since 15 years ago. It has. But the basics are the same, but much smarter made. As in the Swings as an example.
Then there are some tricks on how treble can travel through such a long horn undesturbed. That could be patented even. A tweak on a lousy BMS driver. Which out of box only has 3 things that are really good.
It's coaxial.
It's efficient
I can go deep with the right horn
So if one like a very wide freq. point source transducer with ability to be crossed over at 270 Hz and go straight to 22 KHz...it's really something to go for.
The Orpheans in the Swings might be the answer. And they are for sale as a semi-assembled DIY product.
A cabinet braced with a celluar structure to avoid cabinet internal sound spitting out through the bass diaphragme. An amp to compensate for a lousy 15 db SPL. A linefilter and a few other components. Are that secrets? IMO no.
Any PA system uses these trick and users of active speakers also.
BD-DESIGN have their horns and a special one were made for the BMS driver. No hokus pokus about that.
A commercial company do of course not lay out all details on a DIY forum as he want's to protects himself. But neither will a DIY buy any commercial product within his personal skills, I think. In this case loudspeakers.
But Bert could of course show some frequency curves, impendance curves and a little more technical arguementation causing the good sound. That cannot hurt becuuse it doesn't tell much about the SQ.
I's up to him....
Gerner
The Naked Truth?
All this Swing dingle-dangle has nothing to do with that some DIY'ers cannot do the same. Of course they can. Maybe even better.
That I claimed he could not copy it, was not the same as he cannot make a similar like product. Worse or better.
The DIY can maybe not save as much money as one might think. It is a rather expensive speaker to make for most and as it's commercial means a lot of indirect costs thrown on top of only the raw material ingredients.
There is no secrets to them except there are applied DUELUND/LARS/GERNER filter philosophies into them.
Those pholisophies even 15 years old can be found on the net. As one day that Duelund started to feel sick and where hit by cancer he took his rest time to write about all that. Lars and I did not have the time or felt the need.
It doesn't mean that his philosophy where not taken further since 15 years ago. It has. But the basics are the same, but much smarter made. As in the Swings as an example.
Then there are some tricks on how treble can travel through such a long horn undesturbed. That could be patented even. A tweak on a lousy BMS driver. Which out of box only has 3 things that are really good.
It's coaxial.
It's efficient
I can go deep with the right horn
So if one like a very wide freq. point source transducer with ability to be crossed over at 270 Hz and go straight to 22 KHz...it's really something to go for.
The Orpheans in the Swings might be the answer. And they are for sale as a semi-assembled DIY product.
A cabinet braced with a celluar structure to avoid cabinet internal sound spitting out through the bass diaphragme. An amp to compensate for a lousy 15 db SPL. A linefilter and a few other components. Are that secrets? IMO no.
Any PA system uses these trick and users of active speakers also.
BD-DESIGN have their horns and a special one were made for the BMS driver. No hokus pokus about that.
A commercial company do of course not lay out all details on a DIY forum as he want's to protects himself. But neither will a DIY buy any commercial product within his personal skills, I think. In this case loudspeakers.
But Bert could of course show some frequency curves, impendance curves and a little more technical arguementation causing the good sound. That cannot hurt becuuse it doesn't tell much about the SQ.
I's up to him....
Gerner
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