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-   -   AE Lambda Midbass 10 Project? (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/125275-ae-lambda-midbass-10-project.html)

nickmckinney 22nd June 2008 04:58 PM

AE Lambda Midbass 10 Project?
 
Quote:

Could there be a market fore a AE dedicated OB mid/midwoofer ... ohh, I forgot the Dipole15 ... come to think of it, you have a 10" chassis, right
Quote:

A widerange "Dipole10"(or 12) with the cone design of the TD15M may be a seller ... Fs around 25hz and SPL of 90db+ would be nice ... you seem to have the desired technology

When I was running Lambda NOBODY wanted a 10", I sold maybe 50 15" for a single 10" so I never bothered working on a true midbass version. However things change and quite a few people are inquiring. Well I dug up the specs on the Lambda Dipole 10":

Fs 25.9 Hz
Qms 11.0
Qes 0.73
Qts 0.68
Vas 118 Liters
Cms 0.7 mm/N
Mms 54.6 grams
Sd 345 cm2
Rms 0.81 Kg/S
VC diameter 51mm
BL 12.2 T/m
VC Former Kapton
Re 12.3 ohms
VC Wire 4 Layer Copper roundwire
Z 16 ohms
Le 0.15 mH
"no" 0.61 %
1WSpl 90.1 dB
Air Gap 38 mm
Linear Xmax 12 mm (peak)
Mech Xmax 18 mm (peak)



Now looking at this we can do something. I forgot that this was 90dB already with a 13mm roundwire coil. Well lets step that up to a 4 layer flat aluminum wire voice coil kind of like the TD-M series. We will also be well above 90dB and probably around 93dB or so looking at the above between a coil and cone change. I am looking at a new cone setup as well, which is quite different from the current TD stuff. The TD cones work better the larger the diameter, the 10" has always been a bear to design a cone for. With selling so few 10" there was little desire to really spend some time (read invest money) to make a better cone shape, but now maybe the stars are aligning.

So it comes down to this, what real interest is there if we go out and get a new cone made specifically for midbass duty? Basically this would be a midbass 10" designed to cover from 40Hz to 2Khz specifically. Price would be inline with the current TD drivers, but it would be designed more for home use.

Variac 22nd June 2008 05:06 PM

I think that working on the efficiency is the right path, as most of the drivers that this will be used with will be quite efficient..

tinitus 22nd June 2008 06:17 PM

Thats really nice
"Wideranged" FR would be nice to allow fore a 2way
Come to think think of it, many many people have asked fore 10" to do a 2way with a normal tweeter, allthough those have not been about dipole
I am sure there will be "OB-people" looking closer

nickmckinney 23rd June 2008 02:04 AM

I would estimate 93-95dB@1w would be the range it would fall into with about 8-10mm linear excursion peak. The real issue is getting the 200Hz - 2Khz region as clean as possible. I was given some oddball cone information some years back by one of my mentors Roger Russell (McIntosh engineer) that I will finally test out for this one.

SamL 23rd June 2008 11:24 AM

Hi Nick,

The 8" that you plan. It is a midrange or midbass?

ion 23rd June 2008 12:11 PM

The lambda dipole 10 t/s looks really good on paper. Good thermal handling is no downside, full copper sleeve, and seemingly happy customer base. Looking forward to hearing one IRL! I for sure could consider double/triple tens as bass / low mid in a threeway OB (mainly to get a more narrow baffle).

Moving Fs up a bit is fine, (.. I've left those 20 - 20.000 Hz spec days behind me anyway... ;)) Do I have a wishlist?, well.. beeing a OB addict, sensitivity is nice, but high Qts is nicer. :angel:

Cheers,
Jon

ps: Nick, I think one reason that the dipole 10 sold so sparsely compared to the dipole 15 is that the price was very similar. People could get one 15 to do the job of two 10s, but the latter would be almost double the price.

ttan98 23rd June 2008 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by nickmckinney
I would estimate 93-95dB@1w would be the range it would fall into with about 8-10mm linear excursion peak. The real issue is getting the 200Hz - 2Khz region as clean as possible. I was given some oddball cone information some years back by one of my mentors Roger Russell (McIntosh engineer) that I will finally test out for this one.

I am looking at a mid-range woofer similar to what you are planning to build then sell.
This woofer will compement with a compression driver to make an excellent 2-way in a vented enclosure or compression operates as an open baffle.
Duke from Audiokinesis seems to able to implement this combo most effectively.

tinitus 23rd June 2008 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ion

ps: Nick, I think one reason that the dipole 10 sold so sparsely compared to the dipole 15 is that the price was very similar.

People could get one 15 to do the job of two 10s, but the latter would be almost double the price.


If all goes well, I think this 10" may be a bit different in the sense that it will be possible to design a 2way with 2khz xo point ... all together I dont believe thats possible with a 15"
A 2.5way with double 10" may be interesting too
From the specs presented its still an OB driver

Sure, there are plenty of those around, and they may work ok, but they are in general cheap and poor designs

It will be exciting to see how it devellops

nickmckinney 24th June 2008 01:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SamL
Hi Nick,

The 8" that you plan. It is a midrange or midbass?


Both actually. We will have 3 different cone/surround versions all based on a few different motors (there will be quite a few different part numbers by the time we are done with all the combinations)


Quote:

Originally posted by ion
ps: Nick, I think one reason that the dipole 10 sold so sparsely compared to the dipole 15 is that the price was very similar. People could get one 15 to do the job of two 10s, but the latter would be almost double the price.

The problem is the 10" takes the same amount of labor and uses all the same parts except for the cone and frame and the price difference on those 2 parts combined is about $5. Either we sell the 10" at a loss or we rape with the price of the 15" or we leave it like it is.


Quote:

Originally posted by tinitus
If all goes well, I think this 10" may be a bit different in the sense that it will be possible to design a 2way with 2khz xo point ... all together I dont believe thats possible with a 15"

All 10" and above drivers are into cone "cry" for a 2Khz crossover, no way around it. Issue is how clean can I get the cone to act on the top end. There are a few different things we can do as long as this is not expected to be a 20Hz car sub at anytime. I did design the TD stuff to be pretty durable, this one is being designed as if someone will actually take care of it.

swak 25th June 2008 05:32 PM

I have been thinking about my OB project and I had come to some conclusions which are pretty similar to the ones Magnetar arrived at for his project.

It would be a three way OB on a relatively small baffle. There is a paper (which I can link as I am home) which shows the maximal baffle width should at the most be 2.2 times the effective cone diameter. The baffle width D would be set by the effective diameter of the 10" mid. The same paper shows that with this baffle the mid driver could be able to reproduce frequencies down to 114 Hz.

Now, the mid should have highish Q and the highest sensitivity possible, so perhaps a very light cone is mandatory. The driver would cover up to 1.5-1.8 kHz. An AE driver inspired the EV SRO Mag. raves about would be great. The existing 10" has probably more xmax as necessary for this application.

Another possibility is to have a 12-13" mid driver that could reproduce the human voice range, 80-1200Hz, flat and with excellent fall off on the higher end.

Regarding the range above ~1.2-1.8K I would use a fullrange driver with a very light paper membrane (like the Fe108 Sigma). They are not very expensive, easy to implement and have very nice highs.

The lowest range would be done actively and eq'd with a high Q 15-18 inch driver.

This setup might lack in the lower range specially in large rooms, but permits something more decor friendly, and in smallish rooms as mine should be enough.

If AE comes with such a mid (and perhaps a dedicated LF unit) I would be in for a pair.


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