Magneplanar 2.6r
Visited friend Rene' this past weekend. I was armed with two stacks of precut 1" X 2" X 0.003" pieces of clear acrylic plastic pieces. They have a removable glue on one side so you can take them off. In fact, they are supposed to be for lining cabinet shelves and come from a large rolled up sheet, with a godawful paper backing. Only godawful because of how fiddly it is to remove the thing from the adhesive layer.
The plan was to apply these pieces to the wooden decorative sidepieces of the "Maggies". Now, I know and revere deeply a Maggie, the one attached at the hip to Gary Pimm, and these speakers in their normal condition don't hold a candle to her.
In fact they gave me a headache every time I listened to them.
The midrange, around French Horn territory has a dissonance that turns those horns into something, but it isn't horns. Violins were a hazy band of hissy sound, filled with sharp plucks. The bass was a couple of monsters lurking in the room corners, safely chained, and never a real presence. The panels were toed in and had exactly zero center channel illusion. Other than that they were remarkably good at close miked piano and acoustic bass duo's, with talking and gobs of room ambiance, from a 24 / 192 master tape dub. Lots of promise there.
This was to be a test of Alex of OZ and his heretical plans to pattern all surfaces with pieces of tape, arranged in odd ways in unlikely places.
After dividing the tape pick and place into two tasks, one for each of us, I placed an inside pattern on the left Maggie, as per the attached schematic. Rene' said, wait a minute and stepped back, as I was completing the bottom stick up. We both stood back about 8 feet and were confronted with one driver providing a half of a center channel image and pretty clear french horns too. Definite weirdness to this projection. So we tackled the right side Maggie and stood back. Now there was a center channel, but the sense was of a heavily curved surface behind the panels, with the sound projecting from it, not a sound stage with depth etc.
Went ahead and placed rows on both outer trim pieces of left and right side speakers. The French horns were majestic, the violins were discreet, local to one side, the bass was deep, really deep and composed and the center channel image, well, it had once again fled.
So, I had Rene' toe the panels to flat into the room and move them together a few inches. Now we had center channel image, but there was a vertical null in between the center image and either of the side images. Orchestras were displayed impeccably, but from three separate stages. The music coming from them was sweet, clear, very dynamic and powerful and sounded just like music.
All without touching the generators themselves. Just the wooden side panels. Obviously we are going to have to pattern the back sides too. And very likely, the top and bottom of the generators too, though just how we can accomplish that is still a mystery. Will tape mounted on grill cloth, over open space, serve the same purposes as when mounted on the wood sides? Stay tuned.
So, good on you Alex. You left a very fine Electrical Engineer muttering to himself about magic being wielded by lunatics.
Bud
Visited friend Rene' this past weekend. I was armed with two stacks of precut 1" X 2" X 0.003" pieces of clear acrylic plastic pieces. They have a removable glue on one side so you can take them off. In fact, they are supposed to be for lining cabinet shelves and come from a large rolled up sheet, with a godawful paper backing. Only godawful because of how fiddly it is to remove the thing from the adhesive layer.
The plan was to apply these pieces to the wooden decorative sidepieces of the "Maggies". Now, I know and revere deeply a Maggie, the one attached at the hip to Gary Pimm, and these speakers in their normal condition don't hold a candle to her.
In fact they gave me a headache every time I listened to them.
The midrange, around French Horn territory has a dissonance that turns those horns into something, but it isn't horns. Violins were a hazy band of hissy sound, filled with sharp plucks. The bass was a couple of monsters lurking in the room corners, safely chained, and never a real presence. The panels were toed in and had exactly zero center channel illusion. Other than that they were remarkably good at close miked piano and acoustic bass duo's, with talking and gobs of room ambiance, from a 24 / 192 master tape dub. Lots of promise there.
This was to be a test of Alex of OZ and his heretical plans to pattern all surfaces with pieces of tape, arranged in odd ways in unlikely places.
After dividing the tape pick and place into two tasks, one for each of us, I placed an inside pattern on the left Maggie, as per the attached schematic. Rene' said, wait a minute and stepped back, as I was completing the bottom stick up. We both stood back about 8 feet and were confronted with one driver providing a half of a center channel image and pretty clear french horns too. Definite weirdness to this projection. So we tackled the right side Maggie and stood back. Now there was a center channel, but the sense was of a heavily curved surface behind the panels, with the sound projecting from it, not a sound stage with depth etc.
Went ahead and placed rows on both outer trim pieces of left and right side speakers. The French horns were majestic, the violins were discreet, local to one side, the bass was deep, really deep and composed and the center channel image, well, it had once again fled.
So, I had Rene' toe the panels to flat into the room and move them together a few inches. Now we had center channel image, but there was a vertical null in between the center image and either of the side images. Orchestras were displayed impeccably, but from three separate stages. The music coming from them was sweet, clear, very dynamic and powerful and sounded just like music.
All without touching the generators themselves. Just the wooden side panels. Obviously we are going to have to pattern the back sides too. And very likely, the top and bottom of the generators too, though just how we can accomplish that is still a mystery. Will tape mounted on grill cloth, over open space, serve the same purposes as when mounted on the wood sides? Stay tuned.
So, good on you Alex. You left a very fine Electrical Engineer muttering to himself about magic being wielded by lunatics.
Bud
G'day,
Posted this in another thread, but thought it appropriate for inclusion in the listening impressions and techniques thread.
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In my experience EnABL - when done properly - transfoms what I might describe as 'character flaws' in Fostex drivers into 'character traits'.
The key is Micro Gloss - not just a finishing coat, but in fact critical to bringing out the full potential of the EnABL process.
I encourage you to take a pair of cheap speakers that have EnABL applied and applying one coat daily of 50/50 Micro Gloss/water for 1-2 weeks - with listening tests in between each coat. On the way to Micro Glossing these cones to death, you will gain an invaluable insight into the power of the stuff.
Cheers,
Alex
Posted this in another thread, but thought it appropriate for inclusion in the listening impressions and techniques thread.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
In my experience EnABL - when done properly - transfoms what I might describe as 'character flaws' in Fostex drivers into 'character traits'.
The key is Micro Gloss - not just a finishing coat, but in fact critical to bringing out the full potential of the EnABL process.
I encourage you to take a pair of cheap speakers that have EnABL applied and applying one coat daily of 50/50 Micro Gloss/water for 1-2 weeks - with listening tests in between each coat. On the way to Micro Glossing these cones to death, you will gain an invaluable insight into the power of the stuff.
Cheers,
Alex
My latest thinking is the same as my earliest thinking on this tweak... the results of all the enabl folks are valid for all the enabl folks, since they are all perceptions, not hard facts backed by any sort of measurable data or controlled studies of any kind. If it sounds good to YOU, then do it!! It doesn't sound good to me, so I don't do it. I enabl'd a wall (easy to do with tape, didn't hear any difference, so I guess I did it wrong, right??
So these "results" aren't applicable to anyone else that hasn't enabl'd and accepted superior results, since there is nothing other than anecdotal evidence of success. hence, chalk it up to "expectation and/or perception"... not that ther's anything wrong with that... for the indivdual(s) involved, that is
So these "results" aren't applicable to anyone else that hasn't enabl'd and accepted superior results, since there is nothing other than anecdotal evidence of success. hence, chalk it up to "expectation and/or perception"... not that ther's anything wrong with that... for the indivdual(s) involved, that is
Just a reminder. Here is the first post of this thread:
This thread is a continuation of the EnABL Processes thread here:
EnABL Processes
This thread is for listening impressions and questions concerning applications. This is not to contain the technical side of things. Those posts will be deleted. The thread for that is here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/multi-way/showt...32#post1460032
This thread is a continuation of the EnABL Processes thread here:
EnABL Processes
This thread is for listening impressions and questions concerning applications. This is not to contain the technical side of things. Those posts will be deleted. The thread for that is here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/multi-way/showt...32#post1460032
EnABL is also interactive in some way.
I know mixing two-way speakers, one EnABL'd and one not is not a good sonic result in my experience... either do them both or none.
I don't know how EnABLing a wall with other interactive objects not EnABL'd would or would not make for a result.
I don't think EnABLing everything in a room would be logical or practical (definately zero WAF), but best to start small and work your way up
(Oh, this sounds better. What if I....)
Also in my experience, some things benefit from EnABL while others are not worth the effort.
Cheers!
*append*
Sometimes EnABLing changes something so drastically, it's a new device.... IMO, the EL-70 is a good example... they become two different drivers, rather than an improvement over the original.
I know mixing two-way speakers, one EnABL'd and one not is not a good sonic result in my experience... either do them both or none.
I don't know how EnABLing a wall with other interactive objects not EnABL'd would or would not make for a result.
I don't think EnABLing everything in a room would be logical or practical (definately zero WAF), but best to start small and work your way up
(Oh, this sounds better. What if I....)
Also in my experience, some things benefit from EnABL while others are not worth the effort.
Cheers!
*append*
Sometimes EnABLing changes something so drastically, it's a new device.... IMO, the EL-70 is a good example... they become two different drivers, rather than an improvement over the original.
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No problem. Simply looking for consistency and even-handedness in moderating posts. It's just that those nasty technical aspects keep cropping up here, so I respond here.
Dave
btw: The link above doesn't work. The posts moved are here.
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No difference
Well, I posted here about my listening impressions and my port got deleted. I spent 1/2 hour writing it all up, documenting it in detail.
I won't go to that length again but will try posting again and say that in side by side listening of my Tang-Band W4-616 full-range paper cone, any improvements were marginal and more of a 'feeling' than anything else.
Yes, I can say that some of the problem is in the voice coil motor itself and not just the paper cone. However when then switching to a standard mid-fi speaker, there was a dramatic, noticeable improvement in clarity which I'm sure I could differentiate blind. That would NOT be the case with Enabl.
Furthermore, I got the subjective feeeling that while Enabl helped in some ways, it detracted in others, eg. a rougher lower-mid range F-R.
Well, I posted here about my listening impressions and my port got deleted. I spent 1/2 hour writing it all up, documenting it in detail.
I won't go to that length again but will try posting again and say that in side by side listening of my Tang-Band W4-616 full-range paper cone, any improvements were marginal and more of a 'feeling' than anything else.
Yes, I can say that some of the problem is in the voice coil motor itself and not just the paper cone. However when then switching to a standard mid-fi speaker, there was a dramatic, noticeable improvement in clarity which I'm sure I could differentiate blind. That would NOT be the case with Enabl.
Furthermore, I got the subjective feeeling that while Enabl helped in some ways, it detracted in others, eg. a rougher lower-mid range F-R.
Thanks, Chuck55, and sorry your post got deleted as I'd love to have read it. So no real difference with the Tang-Bands. Now, when you say:
do you mean you found a dramatic difference between the Tang-Band speakers and the "mid-fi" units? Or did you EnABL the mid-fis and find a noticeable difference between stock and EnABL'ed versions?
Carl
do you mean you found a dramatic difference between the Tang-Band speakers and the "mid-fi" units? Or did you EnABL the mid-fis and find a noticeable difference between stock and EnABL'ed versions?
Carl
Would the alternative test be a pair of Enabled and a pair of stock drivers of the same kind?
I seem to recall that that was done but cannot recall the outcome.
I have two different four inchers and one 7.5 or 8" depending how you figure it. My best EnABL job was on the biggest one because it was easiest to see. That one is set up now.
I used the tap test from Soon on the large one and it has 3 patterns:
Outer, Middle and whizzer ring.
Was it Occam's Razor that says if you don't get a good result with one, you need to refine it to two?
Lots of philosophy in EnABL Land.
I seem to recall that that was done but cannot recall the outcome.
I have two different four inchers and one 7.5 or 8" depending how you figure it. My best EnABL job was on the biggest one because it was easiest to see. That one is set up now.
I used the tap test from Soon on the large one and it has 3 patterns:
Outer, Middle and whizzer ring.
Was it Occam's Razor that says if you don't get a good result with one, you need to refine it to two?
Lots of philosophy in EnABL Land.
Here's what I used:
Setup 1
2.7-3 liter cab.
Mod-Podge + EnABL
Speakers against wall
Setup 2:
Parts Express .25 (7 liter0 cab.
1 thin coat of C37 lacquer
Speakers 31" into room
I think I used too much Mod-Podge as the sound got overly dead on #1 but the bad natural breakups are pretty much gone. On #2 the C37 is too thin and still bad breakups. It is naturally cleaner but too harsh for my ears because not overdamped with Mod-Podge.
I can differentiate the deader sound of #1 and still is not as "clean" as #2. But just going to a.....Ascend CBM 170 etc. no comparison.
Setup 1
2.7-3 liter cab.
Mod-Podge + EnABL
Speakers against wall
Setup 2:
Parts Express .25 (7 liter0 cab.
1 thin coat of C37 lacquer
Speakers 31" into room
I think I used too much Mod-Podge as the sound got overly dead on #1 but the bad natural breakups are pretty much gone. On #2 the C37 is too thin and still bad breakups. It is naturally cleaner but too harsh for my ears because not overdamped with Mod-Podge.
I can differentiate the deader sound of #1 and still is not as "clean" as #2. But just going to a.....Ascend CBM 170 etc. no comparison.
G'day chuck55,
How many drivers have you treated with:
1) Modge Podge?
2) EnABL process?
Modge Podge is not an integral part of the EnABL process and is not applicable to every driver that you EnABL. Painting the EnABL patterns on the cone is relatively straight forward. However, it is a skill that has to be learned and mastered to harness its full potential.
It takes a considerable amount of time - and many cheap 'practice' drivers.
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G'day lon,
The tap test is essential for getting the pattern placement right.
My FE167E's endured many tapping sessions of 1-2 hours duration before applying anything to the cones. I identified six (6) areas of interest on the main cone and four (4) on the whizzer. Learning to hear the changes that Bud describes in detail takes time, practice and patience!
Cheers,
Alex
How many drivers have you treated with:
1) Modge Podge?
2) EnABL process?
Modge Podge is not an integral part of the EnABL process and is not applicable to every driver that you EnABL. Painting the EnABL patterns on the cone is relatively straight forward. However, it is a skill that has to be learned and mastered to harness its full potential.
It takes a considerable amount of time - and many cheap 'practice' drivers.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - -
G'day lon,
The tap test is essential for getting the pattern placement right.
My FE167E's endured many tapping sessions of 1-2 hours duration before applying anything to the cones. I identified six (6) areas of interest on the main cone and four (4) on the whizzer. Learning to hear the changes that Bud describes in detail takes time, practice and patience!
Cheers,
Alex
Hi Alex. I have done 1 set with Mod-Podge and 1 set with C37. Treating paper cones is well documented like Scan-Speak and Seas for example. It provides an audible improvement in reducing break-ups. As Planet10 said, it is easier to EnABL a coated driver as the paint does not soak into the paper. All I'm reporting is what I hear. I would love to be able to hear a dramatic improvement as I've given this procedure a lot of time and thought and Budp has been very helpful offline. I am not really thrilled about my next option of going to some $1,250++ pair of Snell's or Northcreek monitors but this is the route if I can't get these Tang-bands to work acceptably.
As for the quality of my work. As Budp says Murphy will quickly show you how easy it is to be less than perfect. "You can really fool around with how it is applied and with what degree of accuracy, and still get the same audible benefits." Hopefully the attachment is here and you can judge for yourself.
I am planning on adding 2-3 more coats of C37 to #2 and then EnABL'ing it. We will see if that gives an audible improvement. i will use a thinner pen and try to get more of an arc than blob although I see this as esoterics than for audible improvement.
As for the quality of my work. As Budp says Murphy will quickly show you how easy it is to be less than perfect. "You can really fool around with how it is applied and with what degree of accuracy, and still get the same audible benefits." Hopefully the attachment is here and you can judge for yourself.
I am planning on adding 2-3 more coats of C37 to #2 and then EnABL'ing it. We will see if that gives an audible improvement. i will use a thinner pen and try to get more of an arc than blob although I see this as esoterics than for audible improvement.
Attachments
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