Linear Template
Bud's posting of the Jordan template reminds me to post the linear template -- this is one i developed for doing phase plugs but is also useful for doing the block rows at the dustcap juncture (and the bass of the whizzer in a phase plugged driver)
The template (a vector pdf is in the CSS FR125 templates)
dave
Bud's posting of the Jordan template reminds me to post the linear template -- this is one i developed for doing phase plugs but is also useful for doing the block rows at the dustcap juncture (and the bass of the whizzer in a phase plugged driver)
The template (a vector pdf is in the CSS FR125 templates)
dave
Attachments
Yes, the test CDs are what I'm talking about. Just line them up and take a picture would be easiest to identify. I tend to use almost any CD at hand, but it's always good to post CDs used for listening impression so that others may listen using CDs they already have in common to get a feeling what's involved.BudP said:
Just a few nights ago, I was at a friends home and we were listing to the latest active speaker we are finalizing on. He was amazed how absolute polarity made a difference. Most of the older classical brands have recording polarity inverted for most classical music, so I expect if you were listening with non-inverting polarity with these, you will be amazed what you were missing with the correct polarity. Bear in mind that the speakers we listed to were driven by LM3886 chip amps only.
I believe that chip amps are quite good to a certain point where measureable speaker improvements are not so obvious any more.
Hi Bud,
Good to see the thread split in order to allow further evaluation, optimisation and discussion without necessary theory, the unrestrained defense of which led to overload of your original thread.
You have told us how you 'sound out' different areas of a cone by scratching them at different radii in order to make an estimation of frequency/energy abberations which EnABL might tame.
From reading I think you do this on unmounted drivers, so I wonder if different results would be perceived, and thus different treatments come to mind, if you made these estimations with the driver mounted on a baffle or in a cabinet with sonically modified rear to front interaction, and damping materials or reflective cabinet peaking having an influence upon your judgement ?
Cheers .......... Graham.
Good to see the thread split in order to allow further evaluation, optimisation and discussion without necessary theory, the unrestrained defense of which led to overload of your original thread.
You have told us how you 'sound out' different areas of a cone by scratching them at different radii in order to make an estimation of frequency/energy abberations which EnABL might tame.
From reading I think you do this on unmounted drivers, so I wonder if different results would be perceived, and thus different treatments come to mind, if you made these estimations with the driver mounted on a baffle or in a cabinet with sonically modified rear to front interaction, and damping materials or reflective cabinet peaking having an influence upon your judgement ?
Cheers .......... Graham.
Hi Graham,
Hmmmm, good question. I don't remember ever removing a boxed driver, to see how it works in free air, with the patterns and amount of gloss coat required for the box location applied.
Conversely, I have yet to put a FR driver in a box, though when the Northern Barbarians invaded last summer, they brought wooden coffins for a pair of 127 slaves I had waiting for them. That seemed a fortuitous joining, so no alert buzzers went off. They drug the lot off and I hadn't heard much about them, until a late night phone call informed me that an industrial accident had wasted both drivers.
Scratching for a match is not quite the whole story, when dealing with a boxed driver. Most are multiway, pretend piston band limited, emitters. EnABL opens up the uncorrupted bandwidth from 3 discrete frequencies to whatever their crossover imposes, but care with the Gloss coat application becomes extremely important.
For instance, a paper cone 6 1/2 inch mid woofer, crossed over to a doped fabric dome tweeter, at about 2 k. The crossover will provide some "steering" to the phase of the mid woofer as it approaches cross over and this usually has to be defeated by relative amounts of Gloss coat, applied to center dome, Vs what is applied to the cone.
The patterns here are always stock ones, with a three ring, condensed set, at the dust cover / cone joint and the typical two ring set out at the surround joint. We now have a third ring to add, and it might very well also need to be tested in situ, for proper location.
Testing here, most likely being light tapping in a radial format, to determine the point where the tone emitted and it's decay sounds become very different, across a very short distance. I do not have a lot of experience here yet, but the half dozen different drivers these have gone on, have all responded in a similar fashion. The ring location has hovered around 2/5's of the distance from voice coil to surround, in placement. Since these have all gone on after the gloss coat, that application is not an issue here.
For a woven dome tweeter, the patterns are usually applied to both sides of the dome, right above the join with the spider on the outside and the voice coil former on the inside. The small pattern shown on FR dust caps is also applied, along with a drop of PVA. Then Gloss is applied, to taste basically. Just a single coat of50 % cut material will typically bring overall SPL back to it's original level. Another coat will provide a noticeable boost to this level and a third coat will begin to create extended dynamic peaks and a somewhat irregular FR .
And then, of course, there is the baffle treatment, already fought over.
So. Your question has yet to be answered in any slightest statistically valid way. I suspect that for full range drivers, in baffle testing as you apply the gloss, will not provide much, if any, benefit.
In a box with cross over, I think it will be crucial, as this is a much more complex system. I will say that I have yet to have to modify crossover's any more extensively, than to add a 0.3 to 2.2 ohm series resistor to the tweeter, to calm it back down. This does not detract from the improvements in quality EnABL brings about, so long as it is a slightly inductive wire wound device. Using a carbon comp or a multiple metal foil group does color the resulting sound, noticeably.
Bud
Hmmmm, good question. I don't remember ever removing a boxed driver, to see how it works in free air, with the patterns and amount of gloss coat required for the box location applied.
Conversely, I have yet to put a FR driver in a box, though when the Northern Barbarians invaded last summer, they brought wooden coffins for a pair of 127 slaves I had waiting for them. That seemed a fortuitous joining, so no alert buzzers went off. They drug the lot off and I hadn't heard much about them, until a late night phone call informed me that an industrial accident had wasted both drivers.
Scratching for a match is not quite the whole story, when dealing with a boxed driver. Most are multiway, pretend piston band limited, emitters. EnABL opens up the uncorrupted bandwidth from 3 discrete frequencies to whatever their crossover imposes, but care with the Gloss coat application becomes extremely important.
For instance, a paper cone 6 1/2 inch mid woofer, crossed over to a doped fabric dome tweeter, at about 2 k. The crossover will provide some "steering" to the phase of the mid woofer as it approaches cross over and this usually has to be defeated by relative amounts of Gloss coat, applied to center dome, Vs what is applied to the cone.
The patterns here are always stock ones, with a three ring, condensed set, at the dust cover / cone joint and the typical two ring set out at the surround joint. We now have a third ring to add, and it might very well also need to be tested in situ, for proper location.
Testing here, most likely being light tapping in a radial format, to determine the point where the tone emitted and it's decay sounds become very different, across a very short distance. I do not have a lot of experience here yet, but the half dozen different drivers these have gone on, have all responded in a similar fashion. The ring location has hovered around 2/5's of the distance from voice coil to surround, in placement. Since these have all gone on after the gloss coat, that application is not an issue here.
For a woven dome tweeter, the patterns are usually applied to both sides of the dome, right above the join with the spider on the outside and the voice coil former on the inside. The small pattern shown on FR dust caps is also applied, along with a drop of PVA. Then Gloss is applied, to taste basically. Just a single coat of50 % cut material will typically bring overall SPL back to it's original level. Another coat will provide a noticeable boost to this level and a third coat will begin to create extended dynamic peaks and a somewhat irregular FR .
And then, of course, there is the baffle treatment, already fought over.
So. Your question has yet to be answered in any slightest statistically valid way. I suspect that for full range drivers, in baffle testing as you apply the gloss, will not provide much, if any, benefit.
In a box with cross over, I think it will be crucial, as this is a much more complex system. I will say that I have yet to have to modify crossover's any more extensively, than to add a 0.3 to 2.2 ohm series resistor to the tweeter, to calm it back down. This does not detract from the improvements in quality EnABL brings about, so long as it is a slightly inductive wire wound device. Using a carbon comp or a multiple metal foil group does color the resulting sound, noticeably.
Bud
Hello again Gentlemen, after a few months of sporadic following of the enable thread (and others) life is finaly settling down so I can now pursuesome fun things in life.
I have been a following the enable phenonema for a while, and was lucky enough to get a pair of Planet10 FE207's last year, that went in the Curvy Chang cabinets, both totaly uncharted waters for me.
I was not disapointed, and have been quite vocular about my listening experience (on the CC thread) and the total involvment in the music I listen to and probably more important the music I dont normaly listen to. The combination to my ears is the most satisfying I have ever listened to, allowing long listening sessions with no fatigue and as the night draws in and the volume has to decrease (the joys of UK terraced houses, nieghbours, and draconian noise pollution laws) the pleasure does not abate.
I cannot give a scientific explanation for what I hear, a more correct term would be what I DONT hear, but I am lucky to have two very good transducers either side of my head (a few hundred million years in development), linked directly to my brain, and what I hear is the music, and the emotion that the music ivokes in me. I am not a clinical listener, I have tried but tend to drift off following some stanza, or following a paticular instrument as the mood takes me. And therin lies the beauty of what this combination of EnABLed FE207 in the Curvy Chang cabinets gives me, audio nivarna.
Before I am accused of sycophanic warbling, I also have other speaker systems that I use, and enjoy, like the more forward presentation of some Tannoy active monitors great for a 'dance music session' or NXT flat panels, good for TV, untreated FE166's, but out of all the treated FE207 are the most listenable to, there is a certian subtle difference that alows the music through.
I have been a following the enable phenonema for a while, and was lucky enough to get a pair of Planet10 FE207's last year, that went in the Curvy Chang cabinets, both totaly uncharted waters for me.
I was not disapointed, and have been quite vocular about my listening experience (on the CC thread) and the total involvment in the music I listen to and probably more important the music I dont normaly listen to. The combination to my ears is the most satisfying I have ever listened to, allowing long listening sessions with no fatigue and as the night draws in and the volume has to decrease (the joys of UK terraced houses, nieghbours, and draconian noise pollution laws) the pleasure does not abate.
I cannot give a scientific explanation for what I hear, a more correct term would be what I DONT hear, but I am lucky to have two very good transducers either side of my head (a few hundred million years in development), linked directly to my brain, and what I hear is the music, and the emotion that the music ivokes in me. I am not a clinical listener, I have tried but tend to drift off following some stanza, or following a paticular instrument as the mood takes me. And therin lies the beauty of what this combination of EnABLed FE207 in the Curvy Chang cabinets gives me, audio nivarna.
Before I am accused of sycophanic warbling, I also have other speaker systems that I use, and enjoy, like the more forward presentation of some Tannoy active monitors great for a 'dance music session' or NXT flat panels, good for TV, untreated FE166's, but out of all the treated FE207 are the most listenable to, there is a certian subtle difference that alows the music through.
ronc,
Far be it from me to disparage anything connected with horns and Dallas. But, you may experience a surfeit of clarity and and somewhat extreme transients. Most treated drivers would give an ordinary CD horn a run for it's money, just sitting nude on a pedestal.
Please do plug the untreated devices in, unless they come from there, for a comparison. And then you might actually want to do some nude viewing.... er listening.
Bud
Far be it from me to disparage anything connected with horns and Dallas. But, you may experience a surfeit of clarity and and somewhat extreme transients. Most treated drivers would give an ordinary CD horn a run for it's money, just sitting nude on a pedestal.
Please do plug the untreated devices in, unless they come from there, for a comparison. And then you might actually want to do some nude viewing.... er listening.
Bud
Please do plug the untreated devices in, unless they come from there, for a comparison. And then you might actually want to do some nude viewing.... er listening.
I will as soon as i get back from SC, but i have to take the driver from my SO to test , and she is not gonna be happy(yall dont have to live with this). (the things i do for this debate).
ron
I will as soon as i get back from SC, but i have to take the driver from my SO to test , and she is not gonna be happy(yall dont have to live with this). (the things i do for this debate).
ron
Having and keep reading as many threads, post, comments etc. regarding EnABL I am begining to thinik Dave's origional comment paraphrasing a certain sci-fi author was a correct and an astute way of describing the audiable effect (he used the term 'grok' )many moons back in one of the origional threads or sub-threads.
There seems to be in my persolel opionion a division, some of whom want to 'grok' and some who want to prove those that do 'grok' wrong! As stated earlier (while not ignorant of the scientific world or electronics) I listen to the music and the better I can hear it the more I can enjoy it. So why is there so much division!
If some of us choose to paint our cones with a pattern of dots (or in my case have it done for me) and hear the difference why the effort to disprove us!
Can you measure the emotion in music yet or why one song lifts you and another has you grinding your teath!
subjective anecdotal evidence
my apologies for getting a bit highly strung over this, but it dose seem that instead of finding out or investigating methods of measuring any change we are arguing amongst ourselves either for or agianst.
(Caveat, spent the last six hours listening to my EnABLed speakers, audio heaven )
Smiles
Marc
There seems to be in my persolel opionion a division, some of whom want to 'grok' and some who want to prove those that do 'grok' wrong! As stated earlier (while not ignorant of the scientific world or electronics) I listen to the music and the better I can hear it the more I can enjoy it. So why is there so much division!
If some of us choose to paint our cones with a pattern of dots (or in my case have it done for me) and hear the difference why the effort to disprove us!
Can you measure the emotion in music yet or why one song lifts you and another has you grinding your teath!
subjective anecdotal evidence
my apologies for getting a bit highly strung over this, but it dose seem that instead of finding out or investigating methods of measuring any change we are arguing amongst ourselves either for or agianst.
(Caveat, spent the last six hours listening to my EnABLed speakers, audio heaven )Smiles
Marc
Hi All,
For everyone faced with obtaining the correct materials for doing EnABL. Look here.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=119852/
We all know the villain involved. Good on you Mr. Villain.
Bud
For everyone faced with obtaining the correct materials for doing EnABL. Look here.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=119852/
We all know the villain involved. Good on you Mr. Villain.
Bud
Soongsc,
You asked for a list of recordings I think are essential for understanding EnABL'd driver performance improvements.
Here they are.
Red Book Audio CD
Jessica Williams "Gratitude"
Candid label: CCD79721
Track s1,3,6,8 & 9 Superior close miked piano. Sparse and dynamic, except when it isn't. Very informative about the individual drivers need for EnABL, for rise time of main tones, depth of tonal structure and time and structure detail for note decay, into harp, resonance chamber, chassis and room. Superb musicianship. Requires extreme high frequency time train resolution.
Chicago Pro Musica "L'Histoire Du Soldadt"
Reference Recording label: RR 17 CD
All tracks, extraordinary dynamics, with sparse implementation. Informative about musician emphasis, rise time of tone and detailed tonal structures. Very informative about low level, wideband decay of room resonances.Superb musicianship and absolute time and tonal correctness.
Chicago Symphony Orchestra, James Levine conducting.
George Gershwin "Rhapsody in Blue - An American in Paris"
Duesche Grammophon label: Stereo 431 625-2 [GIH]
All tracks. Astounding orchestral dynamics, textures, congestion inducements, instrumental color and musician emphasis.This and "Gratitude" are really all you need, to understand how EnABL works.
Various Artists "An Evening With Wynham Hill Live"
Windom Hill Records label :WD-1026
Superb recordings of guitars and piano. Reveals mid high frequency "break up" and string edge transients gone wrong. Some of the most difficult to reproduce applause ever. Tracks 1,2,4,6&7, with 7 having extraordinary piano tonal detail and extended decay. Extreme musicianship and "live" ambiance.
SACD
The Romeros, Rodrigo "Concierto De Aranjuez"
Mercury label: 475 6184 [MSA]
Extraordinary string instrument and orchestral recordings. The violin passages alone will test high frequency performance to an astounding degree. Some of the most sublime music on record.
Audiophile Reference IV
FIM label (First Impression Music) label" SACD 029
Track 1 is some of the most difficult to reproduce female vocals anywhere. Every other track will show different strengths and weaknesses. Track 16 is all percussing triangles, glass rods, lightly played large format drums etc. Perfect for showing time train miscues in mid range and high frequencies. Any "sick" sounding notes or percusive strike misalignments will be clearly audible.
Patricia Barber "Companion"
Mobile Fidelity Sound Labs label: UDSACD 2023
Tracks 3, 5 & 7. Tightest Jazz group since Monk. Test of transient abilities, vocal power and delicacy, along with resolution of deeply textured, high dynamic music. Displays musician emphasis and "live" venue information perfectly.
When I have a driver to the point that it will play all of the above, while nude on a stand, without stumbling, I do not push any further with treatments.
Bud
You asked for a list of recordings I think are essential for understanding EnABL'd driver performance improvements.
Here they are.
Red Book Audio CD
Jessica Williams "Gratitude"
Candid label: CCD79721
Track s1,3,6,8 & 9 Superior close miked piano. Sparse and dynamic, except when it isn't. Very informative about the individual drivers need for EnABL, for rise time of main tones, depth of tonal structure and time and structure detail for note decay, into harp, resonance chamber, chassis and room. Superb musicianship. Requires extreme high frequency time train resolution.
Chicago Pro Musica "L'Histoire Du Soldadt"
Reference Recording label: RR 17 CD
All tracks, extraordinary dynamics, with sparse implementation. Informative about musician emphasis, rise time of tone and detailed tonal structures. Very informative about low level, wideband decay of room resonances.Superb musicianship and absolute time and tonal correctness.
Chicago Symphony Orchestra, James Levine conducting.
George Gershwin "Rhapsody in Blue - An American in Paris"
Duesche Grammophon label: Stereo 431 625-2 [GIH]
All tracks. Astounding orchestral dynamics, textures, congestion inducements, instrumental color and musician emphasis.This and "Gratitude" are really all you need, to understand how EnABL works.
Various Artists "An Evening With Wynham Hill Live"
Windom Hill Records label :WD-1026
Superb recordings of guitars and piano. Reveals mid high frequency "break up" and string edge transients gone wrong. Some of the most difficult to reproduce applause ever. Tracks 1,2,4,6&7, with 7 having extraordinary piano tonal detail and extended decay. Extreme musicianship and "live" ambiance.
SACD
The Romeros, Rodrigo "Concierto De Aranjuez"
Mercury label: 475 6184 [MSA]
Extraordinary string instrument and orchestral recordings. The violin passages alone will test high frequency performance to an astounding degree. Some of the most sublime music on record.
Audiophile Reference IV
FIM label (First Impression Music) label" SACD 029
Track 1 is some of the most difficult to reproduce female vocals anywhere. Every other track will show different strengths and weaknesses. Track 16 is all percussing triangles, glass rods, lightly played large format drums etc. Perfect for showing time train miscues in mid range and high frequencies. Any "sick" sounding notes or percusive strike misalignments will be clearly audible.
Patricia Barber "Companion"
Mobile Fidelity Sound Labs label: UDSACD 2023
Tracks 3, 5 & 7. Tightest Jazz group since Monk. Test of transient abilities, vocal power and delicacy, along with resolution of deeply textured, high dynamic music. Displays musician emphasis and "live" venue information perfectly.
When I have a driver to the point that it will play all of the above, while nude on a stand, without stumbling, I do not push any further with treatments.
Bud
I've got this as an RR-LP, and it doesn't hold up against the Classic Records reissue of Stokowski with an amalgamated NYC studio orchestra (Vanguard, circa 1965)...either in sonics or interpretation. Actually, until the reissue came out, I still preferred my scratchy original Vanguard to the RR LP.
YMMV
Aha, just discovered this thread after giving up reading the initial thread with the Objective Vs Subjective war raging incessantly & taking over what was a great investigation into speaker performance. So great that this is now clean of rancour & can get on with the much more interesting detailing of application.
Now, I have a pair of Jordans JX92S drivers for a while, which I was waiting for detailed instructions to appear on enabling them. And Bud, you came through, excellent. My only question is - is it OK to use toothpaste for these enable patterns as I'm afraid of making a mistake or making a non-reversible change to the sound?
I'm a bit sensitive about ruining another pair of speakers after having blown a pair of Rogers 15 ohm LS3/5As recently. BTW, I mounted the Jordans in the LS3/5A cabinets & found them to be even more polite (ie less dynamic) than the Rogers.
Now, I have a pair of Jordans JX92S drivers for a while, which I was waiting for detailed instructions to appear on enabling them. And Bud, you came through, excellent. My only question is - is it OK to use toothpaste for these enable patterns as I'm afraid of making a mistake or making a non-reversible change to the sound?
I'm a bit sensitive about ruining another pair of speakers after having blown a pair of Rogers 15 ohm LS3/5As recently. BTW, I mounted the Jordans in the LS3/5A cabinets & found them to be even more polite (ie less dynamic) than the Rogers.
jkeny,
I would only use toothpaste for what is called the mid ring and outer ring. I fear the inner rings will just turn into a disaster, unless you have extreme robotic control of your fingers.
However, you can use the Poly S clear, flat, paint without concern. It is soluble in 99.9% pure isopropyl alcohol. A gentle rub with a cue tip and that form of alky will remove all but the faintest traces of the paint. If you follow the instructions, you will get a very good improvement in quality, with only the occasional shriek due to some deeply detailed passages, overwhelming the cones ability to shed energy.
T Head currently has a pair of treated and untreated Jordan's. You might PM him for a first impression. He does use SS and also SE 300 B amps, so he will have a fairly wide choice of audible changes to work through, with the two driver sets.
pedroskova,
Thanks for that info. I don't use vinyl for this sort of investigation with EnABL. I want to have the step response of Red Book transients, to help find what is needed to keep those steep walled shelves from creating other artifacts and ringing from the diaphragm. I will poke around and see if an issue in Red Book occurred. Do you have access to the Vanguard production number you could provide me with?
Bud
I would only use toothpaste for what is called the mid ring and outer ring. I fear the inner rings will just turn into a disaster, unless you have extreme robotic control of your fingers.
However, you can use the Poly S clear, flat, paint without concern. It is soluble in 99.9% pure isopropyl alcohol. A gentle rub with a cue tip and that form of alky will remove all but the faintest traces of the paint. If you follow the instructions, you will get a very good improvement in quality, with only the occasional shriek due to some deeply detailed passages, overwhelming the cones ability to shed energy.
T Head currently has a pair of treated and untreated Jordan's. You might PM him for a first impression. He does use SS and also SE 300 B amps, so he will have a fairly wide choice of audible changes to work through, with the two driver sets.
pedroskova,
Thanks for that info. I don't use vinyl for this sort of investigation with EnABL. I want to have the step response of Red Book transients, to help find what is needed to keep those steep walled shelves from creating other artifacts and ringing from the diaphragm. I will poke around and see if an issue in Red Book occurred. Do you have access to the Vanguard production number you could provide me with?
Bud
Worth watching ....
http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=speakers&m=265186
Cheers ....... Graham.
http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=speakers&m=265186
Cheers ....... Graham.