Well, it ain't redbook, but it's found its way onto SACD.
http://www.hbdirect.com/album_detail.php?pid=531071
Edit: it also contains the redbook version.
Well after a few months of not having Lowthers DX4 and getting them back from Retsel (who was using them in OB Basszilla inspired ) I have to say that I was wrong about those drivers .
I have no explanation (brake -in ???) and mentally settled on Ann Arbor climate influence .
I put them back in Azura front horns and they do not exhibit any excessive harshness nor they exhibit shout or listening fatigue . I like them better actually in front horns than in OB's (less hi-fishy )sounding although they don't image and do usual high-end tricks as well as Retsel's OBs but are a little bit more engaging (to me , Retsel will probably disagree
I took my amps with O-netics OPts to Retsel and we swapped them for comparison .Retsel liked his better and I of course liked mine a little bit more.
There is an inherent weakness in my setup (and I think all ORis like solution suffers from that ) It is less than stellar mid-bass definition and wizzer higs are no competition to a tweeter but the whole presentation is surprisingly musical.
Sorry Bud if I gave you a hard time -I was wrong (although I don't know how to explain it) and no ,you did not spoil that drivers .
Regards, L
I have no explanation (brake -in ???) and mentally settled on Ann Arbor climate influence .
I put them back in Azura front horns and they do not exhibit any excessive harshness nor they exhibit shout or listening fatigue . I like them better actually in front horns than in OB's (less hi-fishy )sounding although they don't image and do usual high-end tricks as well as Retsel's OBs but are a little bit more engaging (to me , Retsel will probably disagree
I took my amps with O-netics OPts to Retsel and we swapped them for comparison .Retsel liked his better and I of course liked mine a little bit more.
There is an inherent weakness in my setup (and I think all ORis like solution suffers from that ) It is less than stellar mid-bass definition and wizzer higs are no competition to a tweeter but the whole presentation is surprisingly musical.
Sorry Bud if I gave you a hard time -I was wrong (although I don't know how to explain it) and no ,you did not spoil that drivers .
Regards, L
Fostex 126 E
This is a curvilinear cone, rather than a straight conic section as is true of Lowthers. Because of this I have only provided treatment rings and photos.
The tool set has an additional requirement, over that found with the Lowthers. You must now purchase, or unearth, a Rapidiograph or Mars technical drawing pen. The Fostex needs the number 2, Red, 0.65 pen tip from Rapidiograph. I do not know the equivalent size number from Mars.The flat Poly S Acrylic paint must be cut by 50% with pure water. You need to be ready to treat all of the drivers on the inner block rings at one sitting just to keep from having to clean and refill. In addition you need to move fairly quickly through the treatment, to keep the tiny passages from setting up and clogging. The reload shake, that is needed with heavy India ink in these things, is even more important with the paint. Plus you will need to use a finger nail to clear dried paint from the tip, step cut and barrel end, as you go along. Or, You can also utilize a #56 calligraphy pen tip and avoid all of that. The application will not be as neat, but that is not an issue here. Also the Poly S paint can be used full strength with the #56 point, just as you will do for the other two pen tips, on their pattern ring sets.
Pattern Rings
When you use the inner cone / dome ring guide, begin with the the lower cone ring first, using the patten as a sight line guide. Then use the first two block sets, in the lower cone ring, to aim the upper block ring that sits between and above them. After the two rings sets on the cone have been applied, apply the center dome lower and upper rings, aligning them with the ring on the cone, across from it. Your eyes must be clear for this and it is better not to drink coffee until after you are done. Be as neat about this as you can. You are not going to be able to make blocks with pens at this size, so just use blobs placed at about pattern block center on the guides.
You will see in the pictures that there is a set of rings, reduced to three block sets per ring, around a spot placed more or less on the top center of the dome. Absolute centering is hard to do and does not seem to be needed, but, close to center is good.
The cone outer ring is straight forward and you can align it with the inner ring if you wish to. Misalignment will be meaningless here. The pen used on this outer ring set is an A 4 tip.
The middle ring will be applied with an A5 pen tip, but not until the Gloss coating has fully cured. You will not need to recoat over this middle ring set with gloss. This ring set needs to be applied close to the patterns guide, rather than the usual single ring, block width up from it, as used for the outer rings. Take your time with this ring set, it is the most important one on the cone. I use a method where I apply two lower blocks and then fit the upper blocks in the open space, one block width or so higher up.
For all of the A series block applications, the pen is inverted.
GLOSS COAT
The main cone took two coats. All were applied with a 3/8 inch wide flat sable brush, 50% cut with water.
The initial coating is done with a Radial brush stroke, from voice coil cone edge to the cone edge at the surround. Each stroke gets a new brush load, each was a full bristle depth dip with one side tamp drained. With a tamp drain, from a brush load, you slide the brush bristles up the end of the bottle neck, while pushing lightly into that bottle edge and draining the excess back into the bottle.
The second coat was also 50% cut with wateraand is applied circumferentially over just a quarter of the cone. Each quarter required three brush loads, with the brush strokes stepping up from the voice coil to the surround.
Allow at least 4 hours after the first coat and 1 hour after the second coating for the material to out gas before you even think about applying the middle pattern ring.
The dome was done with one coat. I used a 50 % mixture again and a thin, fine tipped water color brush, using a single brush dip. I used a full two side tamp drain and just sort of slathered it on, with very light pressure, without worry about a particular application pattern, just a general over brush until all of the material in the brush appeared to be evenly applied. This is a very thin coating. Any more and the high frequencies will get too much emphasis.
The sound, after a 24 hour period of out gassing, is crystal clear, with amazing sound stage and dispersion, just sitting on a stand, nude with no baffle. The speakers were easily able to throw a believable sound stage with correct height and with a "huge" character to the sound.
http://picasaweb.google.com/hpurvine/Fostex126Treatment
Bud
This is a curvilinear cone, rather than a straight conic section as is true of Lowthers. Because of this I have only provided treatment rings and photos.
The tool set has an additional requirement, over that found with the Lowthers. You must now purchase, or unearth, a Rapidiograph or Mars technical drawing pen. The Fostex needs the number 2, Red, 0.65 pen tip from Rapidiograph. I do not know the equivalent size number from Mars.The flat Poly S Acrylic paint must be cut by 50% with pure water. You need to be ready to treat all of the drivers on the inner block rings at one sitting just to keep from having to clean and refill. In addition you need to move fairly quickly through the treatment, to keep the tiny passages from setting up and clogging. The reload shake, that is needed with heavy India ink in these things, is even more important with the paint. Plus you will need to use a finger nail to clear dried paint from the tip, step cut and barrel end, as you go along. Or, You can also utilize a #56 calligraphy pen tip and avoid all of that. The application will not be as neat, but that is not an issue here. Also the Poly S paint can be used full strength with the #56 point, just as you will do for the other two pen tips, on their pattern ring sets.
Pattern Rings
When you use the inner cone / dome ring guide, begin with the the lower cone ring first, using the patten as a sight line guide. Then use the first two block sets, in the lower cone ring, to aim the upper block ring that sits between and above them. After the two rings sets on the cone have been applied, apply the center dome lower and upper rings, aligning them with the ring on the cone, across from it. Your eyes must be clear for this and it is better not to drink coffee until after you are done. Be as neat about this as you can. You are not going to be able to make blocks with pens at this size, so just use blobs placed at about pattern block center on the guides.
You will see in the pictures that there is a set of rings, reduced to three block sets per ring, around a spot placed more or less on the top center of the dome. Absolute centering is hard to do and does not seem to be needed, but, close to center is good.
The cone outer ring is straight forward and you can align it with the inner ring if you wish to. Misalignment will be meaningless here. The pen used on this outer ring set is an A 4 tip.
The middle ring will be applied with an A5 pen tip, but not until the Gloss coating has fully cured. You will not need to recoat over this middle ring set with gloss. This ring set needs to be applied close to the patterns guide, rather than the usual single ring, block width up from it, as used for the outer rings. Take your time with this ring set, it is the most important one on the cone. I use a method where I apply two lower blocks and then fit the upper blocks in the open space, one block width or so higher up.
For all of the A series block applications, the pen is inverted.
GLOSS COAT
The main cone took two coats. All were applied with a 3/8 inch wide flat sable brush, 50% cut with water.
The initial coating is done with a Radial brush stroke, from voice coil cone edge to the cone edge at the surround. Each stroke gets a new brush load, each was a full bristle depth dip with one side tamp drained. With a tamp drain, from a brush load, you slide the brush bristles up the end of the bottle neck, while pushing lightly into that bottle edge and draining the excess back into the bottle.
The second coat was also 50% cut with wateraand is applied circumferentially over just a quarter of the cone. Each quarter required three brush loads, with the brush strokes stepping up from the voice coil to the surround.
Allow at least 4 hours after the first coat and 1 hour after the second coating for the material to out gas before you even think about applying the middle pattern ring.
The dome was done with one coat. I used a 50 % mixture again and a thin, fine tipped water color brush, using a single brush dip. I used a full two side tamp drain and just sort of slathered it on, with very light pressure, without worry about a particular application pattern, just a general over brush until all of the material in the brush appeared to be evenly applied. This is a very thin coating. Any more and the high frequencies will get too much emphasis.
The sound, after a 24 hour period of out gassing, is crystal clear, with amazing sound stage and dispersion, just sitting on a stand, nude with no baffle. The speakers were easily able to throw a believable sound stage with correct height and with a "huge" character to the sound.
http://picasaweb.google.com/hpurvine/Fostex126Treatment
Bud
Hi all,
Actual longevity of the Poly S is wholly dependent upon how you treat the cap, glass bottle sealing lip and how often you shake the dickens out of the bottle. If you always wipe out the lid with a tissue, after preshaking and opening and always wipe off the bottle lip, before resealing and always shake the thing when you remember to, but at least once a month, then lifetime can be years. This is assuming you don't have the bottle open for hours on end, as Dave must, to treat tens of drivers at a time.
Micro Gloss lifetime seems to be indefinite. I have bottles from the 80's and they are still viable. Never, ever shake this stuff. A gentle swirl, to remix water and gloss, is all you are allowed. The froth created by shaking the Micro Gloss can take days to settle out.
Other things to know are:
1. Run an open flame over the sharp end of the new pen tips for 10 seconds or so, before first usage, to burn off the wax coating on the metal.
2. Always wash the pen tip between pattern ring sets. This will keep the Poly S from setting up and bonding to the metal.
3. Do not drink coffee before you try to pattern a driver.
4. Don't worry about liquid lifetimes, the stuff is cheap and relatively easy to get hold of.
5. You will end up treating every loudspeaker in your local area. Trust me on this. Your friends, brothers and sisters in law and local teen aged boom box addicts will all want your help.
6. Wash the brush you use for the Micro Gloss with liquid dish soap and rinse very thoroughly.
Bud
Actual longevity of the Poly S is wholly dependent upon how you treat the cap, glass bottle sealing lip and how often you shake the dickens out of the bottle. If you always wipe out the lid with a tissue, after preshaking and opening and always wipe off the bottle lip, before resealing and always shake the thing when you remember to, but at least once a month, then lifetime can be years. This is assuming you don't have the bottle open for hours on end, as Dave must, to treat tens of drivers at a time.
Micro Gloss lifetime seems to be indefinite. I have bottles from the 80's and they are still viable. Never, ever shake this stuff. A gentle swirl, to remix water and gloss, is all you are allowed. The froth created by shaking the Micro Gloss can take days to settle out.
Other things to know are:
1. Run an open flame over the sharp end of the new pen tips for 10 seconds or so, before first usage, to burn off the wax coating on the metal.
2. Always wash the pen tip between pattern ring sets. This will keep the Poly S from setting up and bonding to the metal.
3. Do not drink coffee before you try to pattern a driver.
4. Don't worry about liquid lifetimes, the stuff is cheap and relatively easy to get hold of.
5. You will end up treating every loudspeaker in your local area. Trust me on this. Your friends, brothers and sisters in law and local teen aged boom box addicts will all want your help.
6. Wash the brush you use for the Micro Gloss with liquid dish soap and rinse very thoroughly.
Bud
First a little observation:
" The ring location has hovered around 2/5's of the distance from voice coil to surround, in placement "
If we look at that from the other end we get: 3/5 of the distance from surround to voice coil = 0.6
Also consider 1 / 1.618 = 0.6180
The golden radio rears it's head yet again.
Dave / Bud:
Fostex FE207E Drivers, I have a vague recollection that there was a coating applied before the matte acrylic paint.
" The ring location has hovered around 2/5's of the distance from voice coil to surround, in placement "
If we look at that from the other end we get: 3/5 of the distance from surround to voice coil = 0.6
Also consider 1 / 1.618 = 0.6180
The golden radio rears it's head yet again.
Dave / Bud:
Fostex FE207E Drivers, I have a vague recollection that there was a coating applied before the matte acrylic paint.
Bud you're spot on about wanting to treat every driver in your house and even friends
Has anyone tried raising the block heights especially for larger drivers on the outside ring. I tried treating a subwoofer, and didn't find much in the way of differences just by the pattern alone. I was considering increasing the height of the blocks to see if it would do anything.
Has anyone tried raising the block heights especially for larger drivers on the outside ring. I tried treating a subwoofer, and didn't find much in the way of differences just by the pattern alone. I was considering increasing the height of the blocks to see if it would do anything.
zbuff,
Low frequency only drivers don't really show much change. The major points being that they fill the room more completely and have less noise. Notable clarity comes above 200 Hz and the low bass stuff is more a descriptor of spaces, not intruding on upper ranges when EnABL'd. Have you applied Gloss coat to the woofer yet?
If you are using a bass reflex enclosure you want to get hold of Alex from Oz Excel spreadsheet and treat the vent too.
Bud
Low frequency only drivers don't really show much change. The major points being that they fill the room more completely and have less noise. Notable clarity comes above 200 Hz and the low bass stuff is more a descriptor of spaces, not intruding on upper ranges when EnABL'd. Have you applied Gloss coat to the woofer yet?
If you are using a bass reflex enclosure you want to get hold of Alex from Oz Excel spreadsheet and treat the vent too.
Bud
zBuff said:
G'day zBuff,
I have successfully treated the ports of a number of subwoofers using duct tape (not paint) as the material for the blocks.
If you can give me some details of your sub I'm happy to help.
Bass Reflex?
Port size - round? flared? Diameter?
Does the driver fire into free air or is it down firing?
Cheers,
Alex
The conformal coating of course made a difference, I was just hoping for the same large bump in clarity and volume from just the Enabl pattern I have experienced with my FRs, midrange and tweeters.
Alex, I haven't tried the pattern on that particular subwoofer yet, but I did on another cheaper sub. I couldn't hear any difference, though my auditory memory isn't so good, so there might have been, albeit minor.
I might give it a go on pair of speakers sometime so at least I can A-B them.
Alex, I haven't tried the pattern on that particular subwoofer yet, but I did on another cheaper sub. I couldn't hear any difference, though my auditory memory isn't so good, so there might have been, albeit minor.
I might give it a go on pair of speakers sometime so at least I can A-B them.
Sorry Alex, wasn't clear enough on my last post. Yes I tried it on a port.
I was hoping for an improvement as the improvement to to drivers using the cone treatment is fantastic.
I will try again on a system I can A-B test, and let you know how it goes. If it's on a flared port, do you place it before the flare begins or at the end of it?
I was hoping for an improvement as the improvement to to drivers using the cone treatment is fantastic.
I will try again on a system I can A-B test, and let you know how it goes. If it's on a flared port, do you place it before the flare begins or at the end of it?
Re: Tutourial #1 -- Materials
Hello
I really wonder, if some pens like this would work for these pattern:
http://www.edding.com/151_DEU_HTML.htm#
look for Nr. 751 or 780
http://www.edding.com/data/Katalog2008-GB-web.pdf
on page 12 (buttom of that page)
or these ones:
http://www.marabu-creative.com/gb/02mfarben/produkte/brilliant_painter.php
Really fine marker e.g. 0.8mm line width (or thicker) and a lacquer - like ink.
Hello
I really wonder, if some pens like this would work for these pattern:
http://www.edding.com/151_DEU_HTML.htm#
look for Nr. 751 or 780
http://www.edding.com/data/Katalog2008-GB-web.pdf
on page 12 (buttom of that page)
or these ones:
http://www.marabu-creative.com/gb/02mfarben/produkte/brilliant_painter.php
Really fine marker e.g. 0.8mm line width (or thicker) and a lacquer - like ink.
joern,
Looks like the Edding opaque markers (750/751) may have enough solids content to work. Gloss paints have not worked out for me, but their trial was many years ago.
The real question is how hard is the cured surface. If it is equivalent to the Poly S flat acrylic finishes, as the Edding literature seems to indicate with their high wear resistance claims, then their lacquer should be a good enough carrier for the pigment.
I would suggest trying them out on a driver that is not important to you. Perhaps a computer speaker from a seperate box sound system. An interesting way to treat these types is to remove them entirely from the enclosure, tack a couple of long, flexible wire leads from box to driver and treat them while listening to music.
Since they will be resting on the magnet back plate you can easily turn them to apply the blocks. If you use an exterior ring as a guide, one that rests on the frame, outside of the suspension, you can listen for what occurs as you apply the last few outer ring block sets. Quite an interesting change in radiation character.
Bud
Looks like the Edding opaque markers (750/751) may have enough solids content to work. Gloss paints have not worked out for me, but their trial was many years ago.
The real question is how hard is the cured surface. If it is equivalent to the Poly S flat acrylic finishes, as the Edding literature seems to indicate with their high wear resistance claims, then their lacquer should be a good enough carrier for the pigment.
I would suggest trying them out on a driver that is not important to you. Perhaps a computer speaker from a seperate box sound system. An interesting way to treat these types is to remove them entirely from the enclosure, tack a couple of long, flexible wire leads from box to driver and treat them while listening to music.
Since they will be resting on the magnet back plate you can easily turn them to apply the blocks. If you use an exterior ring as a guide, one that rests on the frame, outside of the suspension, you can listen for what occurs as you apply the last few outer ring block sets. Quite an interesting change in radiation character.
Bud
zbuff and Alex,
It is entirely possible that treating either the cone or the port and baffle to EnABL, is as much benefit as you can get. Might not be an additive thing.
Strange to think that the blocks placed at positions where the characteristics change in their pressure and velocity relationship are what is the actual mechanism at work.
What I am pointing to is that a set of blocks, placed anywhere there is one of these change points, might be all that is needed to control the entire system.
Alex can you take one of your successful port EnABL'd units and also EnABL the woofer? Probably one of the sealed box types with the port as the only outlet. And then another unit with the driver actually firing into open space plus with a port? I don't use typical ported bass structures so I don't have any subjects to test.
zbuff, can you put into words what you find as the result of treating your drivers with EnABL patterns? John K, over on the technical thread, was bemoaning the lack of comments, good or bad, here on this thread. So, any words you might care to share with the rest of us would be appreciated.
Bud
It is entirely possible that treating either the cone or the port and baffle to EnABL, is as much benefit as you can get. Might not be an additive thing.
Strange to think that the blocks placed at positions where the characteristics change in their pressure and velocity relationship are what is the actual mechanism at work.
What I am pointing to is that a set of blocks, placed anywhere there is one of these change points, might be all that is needed to control the entire system.
Alex can you take one of your successful port EnABL'd units and also EnABL the woofer? Probably one of the sealed box types with the port as the only outlet. And then another unit with the driver actually firing into open space plus with a port? I don't use typical ported bass structures so I don't have any subjects to test.
zbuff, can you put into words what you find as the result of treating your drivers with EnABL patterns? John K, over on the technical thread, was bemoaning the lack of comments, good or bad, here on this thread. So, any words you might care to share with the rest of us would be appreciated.
Bud
Comments on changes that can be heard with the Enabl technique? I'd be happy to help you out Bud, though I don't think it will help John K disposition at all.
I've enabled 14 speakers at this stage. All either mid-fi to low quality ones at this stage, though I plan to move on to my more expensive speakers now that I can convinced of the improvements. In every case I did leave at least 1 driver unmodified to A-B with.
In every case applying the just Enabl pattern increased the depth and clarity of the music. I can hear things I couldn't hear before from the same speakers, little nuances in the music, fine lower level details, such as the background, venue is easier to envisage, you can hear the decay of notes far easier, ambience is far better, strangely volume actually seems louder, it makes the speaker sound more dynamic (this is the only cone mod I've ever experienced that has done this), more life like. Bass seems to be decreased a little though tightened up, though this could be because the treble sound like they are boosted. Another downside seems be that the music sometimes sounds a bit peaky/harsh, though it only lasts for a split second.
In congested music, with lots of different instruments, is where enabl really shines, especially on FR drivers. Before the driver would go from great sounding to terrible sounding going from a simple passage to a complex one, most noticeable in the rock in my music collection. After the Enabl treatment the difference isn't so unbearable, I wouldn't say the cone can handle both sets of passages as well as what a multway speaker can, but it really does help one of the major downsides in using FR drivers IMO.
Once the conformal coating is applied things balance out a bit more, bass comes back, the volume comes back down to it's original level, the harshness I heard before is gone, off axis performance is improved, but doesn't sound as dynamic, with certain types of music I actually like the sound of just the pattern, minus the conformal coating.
It's a modding technique that I'd recommend everyone to try at least, the gains are very much worth it.
I am following the technical thread, as I'd be interested to know what it is actually doing to improve the sound, but I don't need data or lack of, to tell my ears and brain what they are hearing.
Lastly I'd like to thank you Bud, for sharing this with the DIY community, you are a true gentleman, I can say with the utmost certainty that if I was in your shoes I would have just given up, due to your treatment by some members of this board.
I've enabled 14 speakers at this stage. All either mid-fi to low quality ones at this stage, though I plan to move on to my more expensive speakers now that I can convinced of the improvements. In every case I did leave at least 1 driver unmodified to A-B with.
In every case applying the just Enabl pattern increased the depth and clarity of the music. I can hear things I couldn't hear before from the same speakers, little nuances in the music, fine lower level details, such as the background, venue is easier to envisage, you can hear the decay of notes far easier, ambience is far better, strangely volume actually seems louder, it makes the speaker sound more dynamic (this is the only cone mod I've ever experienced that has done this), more life like. Bass seems to be decreased a little though tightened up, though this could be because the treble sound like they are boosted. Another downside seems be that the music sometimes sounds a bit peaky/harsh, though it only lasts for a split second.
In congested music, with lots of different instruments, is where enabl really shines, especially on FR drivers. Before the driver would go from great sounding to terrible sounding going from a simple passage to a complex one, most noticeable in the rock in my music collection. After the Enabl treatment the difference isn't so unbearable, I wouldn't say the cone can handle both sets of passages as well as what a multway speaker can, but it really does help one of the major downsides in using FR drivers IMO.
Once the conformal coating is applied things balance out a bit more, bass comes back, the volume comes back down to it's original level, the harshness I heard before is gone, off axis performance is improved, but doesn't sound as dynamic, with certain types of music I actually like the sound of just the pattern, minus the conformal coating.
It's a modding technique that I'd recommend everyone to try at least, the gains are very much worth it.
I am following the technical thread, as I'd be interested to know what it is actually doing to improve the sound, but I don't need data or lack of, to tell my ears and brain what they are hearing.
Lastly I'd like to thank you Bud, for sharing this with the DIY community, you are a true gentleman, I can say with the utmost certainty that if I was in your shoes I would have just given up, due to your treatment by some members of this board.
BudP said:
I would ask which characteristics change, but am not supposed to since there was such a desire to keep a separation in the threads:
That was in this old thread post: Split the thread
Since Bud wants to discuss the technical aspect, but has posted it here (shame on you, Bud, for violating your own request), I'm adding some links as the rules said would be the means to introduce objective, technical points. I'd like to get some clarification on Bud's statements about control of the entire system, but since that's not allowed on this thread, I'm asking for some detail to be provided on the technical thread. I wouldn't want to upset those here who were so pleased to have a thread only for subjective posts, so I am happy to oblige and only post some links.
For those interested in what the technical discussion (since there aren't many links to it here) has provided, I suggest starting at this post below, though a thorough read of the entire thread would be useful.
Good entry point to the technical thread
Dave