GloBug,
I happen to be a Sound Engineer and Recording Engineer who happens to have a Masters in Applied Physics -Sound and Acoustics . I've read your posts and you have what I would call, 'enough knowledge of acoustics to get into trouble'. Once you fill in the gaps you'll be in good shape.
er? basically right.
Any questions please ask.
Sincerely
revb.
I happen to be a Sound Engineer and Recording Engineer who happens to have a Masters in Applied Physics -Sound and Acoustics . I've read your posts and you have what I would call, 'enough knowledge of acoustics to get into trouble'. Once you fill in the gaps you'll be in good shape.
True, but... A truly anechoic panel would be ~6' thick. You'll need lots of room to apply that treatment
No. The most accurate reproduction of a recording would be to play it back in the space it was recorded. Music playback in an anechoic chamber is extremely unnerving as the hearing centers of the brain are looking for correlation to the size of the room and it's expected reflections generated by your optical systems. Your eyes and ears work together, that's why you hear most critically with your eyes shut.
That's just plain wrong. Every playback environment will color the sound, even a truly anechoic room. No reflections is a coloration, as they should be there. When recording you are looking to capture the performance as neutrally/realistically as possible. This works well in most rooms because most rooms aren't that bad. It's not some Sound engineer voodoo.
er? basically right.
Concert halls have lots of resonances in the audible range. The larger the room the lower the frequency but even the largest will have problems below 80Hz.
Any questions please ask.
Sincerely
revb.
Here's two examples. The first is Studio 2 at Abbey Road Studios. The second is a mastering suite at Skywalker.
What you want is a balance between too live and too dead. This is achieved with moveable panels, careful microphone placement and room selection. Sometimes you want a live room, sometimes you want a dead room. There is no perfect environment for recording or playback.
What you want is a balance between too live and too dead. This is achieved with moveable panels, careful microphone placement and room selection. Sometimes you want a live room, sometimes you want a dead room. There is no perfect environment for recording or playback.
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Hi GloBug, (guys)
As an audio driver maker, I work inside an anechoic chamber during most working days. I can appreciate what your saying but your above statement is a significant over-simplification of the issue.
I'm regularly connected to music industry. Indeed, I've was used by the regional offices of 2 multinational music publishing companies to help assess their master and test recordings. I learned allot from these guys. Such is the wide variety of music, there's a mix of several factors involved in the recording process: type and style of music, sound engineering, production, music performers style/influence, event location choice etc., etc,.
I work with several professional sound engineers here in Hong Kong and Tokyo. Some concentrate their work on studio recordings while others work mostly at live concerts. The sound guys working "live" often use the acoustic effects from the concert venue to help emphasise the "live" nature of recording's output. While others will use acoustically controlled environments to record for example, solo classic guitar.
For those Diy members making and operating their audio systems, I wouldn't recommend trying to eliminate all room influences. I don't know any domestic/home audio driver/speaker system maker that specifically designs their product to operate in heavily damped and/or anechoic environments. We should remember that as humans our hearing perception is "tuned" to mixed non-anechoic environments. Operating a speaker system in heavily damped and/or anechoic environments might sound somewhat un-natural.
There's a wealth of build and set-up advice and information in Diyaudio, on the web and in various publications. With practice and persistence, its possible to produce an excellent system and by making some sensible adjustments to a listening room, create an effective pleasing sound.
Granted, like so many things in life, beauty is in the ears of every individual, so for some, a heavily damped environment maybe a choice that suites them, but its usually an exception rather than the rule.
Cheers
Mark.
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Live instruments are only recorded with ambiance or echo if desired, the rest of the time is in a chamber.
You only need echos or ambiance in your recording if you want it.
All this theory is nice but goes out the window when you put on a pair of $40 earphones.
Pretty much everything you guys state is completely contradicted by wearing headphones.
Headphones are close to anechoic, depending on the quality. Headphones are much more accurate, due to not having influence from the room side.
Add to that if you want to hear "reference" levels of music (~105), your going to need to be significantly damped or it will turn to mud.
Two speakers do an amazing job at giving you spacial cues, I don't see how adding extra echos and reflections makes it sound better or "lively".
If you want a "lively" sound, record it in a suitable location, don't expect my drywall to do your "effects" work for you.
So the ideal listening environment is one the closely resembles a pair of over the ear headphones. (Which just happen to be echo-free).
There is no way you can explain your way around that, no matter who you work for or what you make. (With all due respect) Its science.
And as a side note, there is nothing impressive about Abbey roads from a technical point of view. A lot has changed since then. Abby is famous, but not for the sound quality, only because of the Beatles.
From a subjective point of view, the recordings from Abbey are absolutely terrible. They lack any proper LF response and the implied stereo separation is enough to make you cry.
Oddly enough an old Beatles record can benefit from some echo to create stereo, as they were not recorded in stereo, rather mono and inserted into right and left tracks.
We live in the 90's now.
You only need echos or ambiance in your recording if you want it.
All this theory is nice but goes out the window when you put on a pair of $40 earphones.
Pretty much everything you guys state is completely contradicted by wearing headphones.
Headphones are close to anechoic, depending on the quality. Headphones are much more accurate, due to not having influence from the room side.
Add to that if you want to hear "reference" levels of music (~105), your going to need to be significantly damped or it will turn to mud.
Two speakers do an amazing job at giving you spacial cues, I don't see how adding extra echos and reflections makes it sound better or "lively".
If you want a "lively" sound, record it in a suitable location, don't expect my drywall to do your "effects" work for you.
So the ideal listening environment is one the closely resembles a pair of over the ear headphones. (Which just happen to be echo-free).
There is no way you can explain your way around that, no matter who you work for or what you make. (With all due respect) Its science.
And as a side note, there is nothing impressive about Abbey roads from a technical point of view. A lot has changed since then. Abby is famous, but not for the sound quality, only because of the Beatles.
From a subjective point of view, the recordings from Abbey are absolutely terrible. They lack any proper LF response and the implied stereo separation is enough to make you cry.
Oddly enough an old Beatles record can benefit from some echo to create stereo, as they were not recorded in stereo, rather mono and inserted into right and left tracks.
We live in the 90's now.
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It's the same principle.
Weather or not closed-back headphones would be considered "anechoic" would depend on the model and quality.
I usually modify my headphones with dampening foam on the rear chamber walls, similar to how "hearing protection" models are constructed.
I use these headphones/hearing protection while woodworking.
The relative isolation from the outside world allows me to listen music at a lower, safer sound level.
The loudest machines are still audible obviously, (Planers, routers. etc) but are subdued to a comfortable, tolerable level.
This is great because I can listen to decent quality music/talk radio in a very adverse environment, 8 hours a day.
Even if the machines were off, you still could not play a conventional stereo in the shop, the reverberations and echos would make music and voices intolerable and incomprehensible.
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Here's how I go about it.
If you notice the hearing protection in the first photo basically consists of a sealed cup and roughly 1/2" of open-celled foam.
So I just apply this technique regular cans by dampening the rear outer chamber wall in a similar fashion to the safety muffs.
Now, when you first put on "hearing protection", it does seem different at first, but you get used to it very fast.
I myself am too the point where I am not comfortable using tools without hearing protection, you will easily adapt to the comfort of silence.
Even a lowly pair of modified Sony MDR-XD200 will reproduce high fidelity much easier then a "treated" room.
If you notice the hearing protection in the first photo basically consists of a sealed cup and roughly 1/2" of open-celled foam.
So I just apply this technique regular cans by dampening the rear outer chamber wall in a similar fashion to the safety muffs.
Now, when you first put on "hearing protection", it does seem different at first, but you get used to it very fast.
I myself am too the point where I am not comfortable using tools without hearing protection, you will easily adapt to the comfort of silence.
Even a lowly pair of modified Sony MDR-XD200 will reproduce high fidelity much easier then a "treated" room.
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You let the speakers project correlation to your brain.
If a scene is filmed outside for example, you need to let the gear reproduce long distance generate reverberations; let's say the echo of any eagle scream in a large value.
Adding extra short-proximity echo delays does nothing for adding to realism or accuracy of the original recording.
"No reflections is coloration" This is impossible in every sense.
This is starting to sound like voo-dooo.
So how is it you you are mixing to produce a flat response in varying room sizes from bedrooms to gymnasiums with varying amounts of sound dampening, including headphones? How do you achieve this?; do you monitor with headphones or speakers?; How would you account for the differences of monitors or headphones while recording?
"The most accurate reproduction of a recording would be to play it back in the space it was recorded."
I agree with you here. However in reality your not listening to music in the original space. What happens then when your listening to something recorded outside where the reflection boundaries are much farther away?
(I can't afford to have a speaker a 1/2 mile away in a valley to reproduce an eagles squak.)
So the logical approach is to eliminate colouration (Harmonic distortion) from its source.
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"Some concentrate their work on studio recordings while others work mostly at live concerts. The sound guys working "live" often use the acoustic effects from the concert venue to help emphasise the "live" nature of recording's output. While others will use acoustically controlled environments to record for example, solo classic guitar. "
-I basically agree with you here, "using acoustic effects emphasis the live nature of a recording"- nothing wrong with that but the difference is that is on the "recording" end, not the "playback" end.
"For those Diy members making and operating their audio systems, I wouldn't recommend trying to eliminate all room influences. I don't know any domestic/home audio driver/speaker system maker that specifically designs their product to operate in heavily damped and/or anechoic environments. We should remember that as humans our hearing perception is "tuned" to mixed non-anechoic environments. Operating a speaker system in heavily damped and/or anechoic environments might sound somewhat un-natural."
-Weather or not you "do not design your product to operate in heavily damped and/or anechoic environments" is irrelevant.
You are merely are looking for a flat frequency response compared to the voltage delivered to the speaker.
You are also yourself using anechoic chambers for testing, for reasons none other than high-fidelity, undistorted reproduction of the source signal.
"We should remember that as humans our hearing perception is "tuned" to mixed non-anechoic environments. Operating a speaker system in heavily damped and/or anechoic environments might sound somewhat un-natural."
-Actually the opposite is true.
I live in a valley. Now, when you go outside at different times of the year, things sound different.
Air temperature is part of it, but the biggest differences are with whats on the surfaces. (leaves vs no leaves for example.), (this affects how far the sound travels and how much is reflected.)
And the biggest difference of all is on a still day with lot's of fluffy snow covering everything including the trees. When you walk out side the first thing that strikes you is the silence. No echos at all, it sounds anechoic-ish.
So if you want your system to reproduce a natural variety of scenery it needs to be able to have control.
Your stereo is very capable at creating sound waves, but it can't control them as intended once it leaves the speaker box.
So in order to sound like something recorded in the dead off winter, on a calm snow filled day, you need to have the sound pass your ears once then get absorbed into the "snow" or "anechoic-ish" type panel.
I'm not encouraging full out chamber for home use, but every little bit would help.
Human... ! You do realize Bugs are a bit different .......
...............................................................
I have not read all the resopnses...
Consider that......
1) Music is mixed via speakers in various reflective enviourments.....not via headphones, ets.
2) No two listening envioument and speaker combos are the same.
3) Frequency content /response can very greatly from recording to recording depending on content and mixer.
So , what I alway do is get a pleasing balance for all types of muuic and find a EQ setting I like and leave it.... set it and forget it basically.
Someone aked me years ago when they saw me constantly adjusting my high end sys if I "ever just enjoyed the music" without constantly adjusting my sys and realized they were basically right.
Yes, you may have to adjust the volume a bit for certain content that has excessive freq at the room's resonant freqs but, what else can we do given the many variables in the real world? If you cut those freqs to acomadate that content, other "nomal" contents with those freqs would sound like there was something missing as those freqs would not then be loud enough to be a real problem.
Consider that......
1) Music is mixed via speakers in various reflective enviourments.....not via headphones, ets.
2) No two listening envioument and speaker combos are the same.
3) Frequency content /response can very greatly from recording to recording depending on content and mixer.
So , what I alway do is get a pleasing balance for all types of muuic and find a EQ setting I like and leave it.... set it and forget it basically.
Someone aked me years ago when they saw me constantly adjusting my high end sys if I "ever just enjoyed the music" without constantly adjusting my sys and realized they were basically right.
Yes, you may have to adjust the volume a bit for certain content that has excessive freq at the room's resonant freqs but, what else can we do given the many variables in the real world? If you cut those freqs to acomadate that content, other "nomal" contents with those freqs would sound like there was something missing as those freqs would not then be loud enough to be a real problem.
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Still waiting for your further thoughts and details on this. (maybe you missed my question in post #56)
Thanks!
Why would I add anything to the recording of the eagle? I'd just record the primary sound and the reflections. No timing modification is necessary.
If I am thinking about something being played back in a living room (i.e. movie soundtracks) then I will engineer the material so when played back in an average living room it will sound right. When you play that recording in an anechoic environment you are distorting the playback because the recording took into account the liveness of a average room. Now when you put on headphones you will hear the sound as cleaner because it is, not better just different.
If mixing a type of music that is mostly listened to by folks who use headphones or radios, pop for example, the mix will include a more spatial cues so it will sound right coming out of speakers that are close to the listener.
It depends on what the average listener will be using. If it's mixed for iTunes you do the mix on headphones. If it's mixed for audiophiles, classic for example, you mix it on nice floor standing speakers (Thiel or B&W). For movies you mix with a surround system in a semi live mixing room. (see the skywalker pic above)
etc. etc.
Why would you put a speaker that far away? The reflections are on the recording in correct time. The speakers will make the primary sound then a short while later play the reflections as recorded. You might shift the echo to a surround channel if you want the echo to come from behind or the side but that's about it.
there is a sweet spot as mentioned in the first post,
if your speakers have a nice sound and are posisioned so as not to have to meny peeks and vallieys in the sound, it is good to lisen at a medium level that you have have consistently without the eat losing sensitivity or and discomfot or destortion ruining your being lost in the music" i also find i feel it better this way.
however i do love the odd blasting session, i think its good to exersise the eardrums with a bit of BASS
excuse my spelling im half asleep
i have 3 levels
very soft
sweetspot (kinda medium balance spot)
L O U D
if your speakers have a nice sound and are posisioned so as not to have to meny peeks and vallieys in the sound, it is good to lisen at a medium level that you have have consistently without the eat losing sensitivity or and discomfot or destortion ruining your being lost in the music" i also find i feel it better this way.
however i do love the odd blasting session, i think its good to exersise the eardrums with a bit of BASS
excuse my spelling im half asleep
i have 3 levels
very soft
sweetspot (kinda medium balance spot)
L O U D
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